Around the NBA: Playoff Edition #2

Post #1601 » by **kingkirk** » Mon May 15, 2017 4:46 am

Example: LeBron leaves Cleveland last season, forms a new team with Al Horford, DeMar DeRozan, Mike Conley and Dwight Howard.

We're supposedly fine with that because it's not circumventing the 'rules' of competition because none of those players are top 10 guys, right?

Post #1602 » by **kingkirk** » Mon May 15, 2017 4:47 am

HomoSapien wrote:It's littered with something far worse.

no

The underlying issue here is that it's Jordan and we're on a Bulls board and LeBron is the only player ever to have this close of sniff at the GOAT title and people are secretly finding new and absurd ways to discredit him so he can never surpass Michael.

It's ridicoulous.

As I said, kill LeBron all you want for failing in the 2011 Finals like he did, something Michael never did. If that's your reason for not thinking he can ever be the GOAT, then fine. I can accept that.

But 'circumventing the competition' is a ridiculous.

Post #1603 » by **HomoSapien** » Mon May 15, 2017 4:48 am

DanTown8587 wrote:
It's mind boggling to me that LeBron going to Miami is seen as a slap in the face to competition but LeBron going to a team with two of the previous three #1 overall picks (one of which was traded for a guy as good if not better than Bosh was at the time of him going to Miami) is somehow completely different.

Just because they were drafted #1 doesn't mean they are top of the line talents though. They're very talented players, but their success in the league prior James had been poor.

Post #1604 » by **HomoSapien** » Mon May 15, 2017 4:49 am

Mark K wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:It's littered with something far worse.

no

I mean, you literally devalued the purpose of sports by placing no value on competition.

Post #1605 » by **HomoSapien** » Mon May 15, 2017 4:49 am

Mark K wrote:Example: LeBron leaves Cleveland last season, forms a new team with Al Horford, DeMar DeRozan, Mike Conley and Dwight Howard.

We're supposedly fine with that because it's not circumventing the 'rules' of competition because none of those players are top 10 guys, right?

It's still cheap, but not as cheap. Are we allowed to have varying degrees of cheapness or do you want it all to be black and white?

andrewww · Post #1606 » by **andrewww** » Mon May 15, 2017 4:50 am

IMO leaving Cleveland and then Miami are the same. The PR was different but for all intensive purposes Lebron put himself in the best position to win both at present and going forward when he jumped ship twice.

Are they the same in the spirit of stacking the deck and dodging competition? I would say yes IMO.

Is KD doing the same thing even though the circumstances are different and GSW is arguably more stacked? IMO yes.

What I hate is the inconsistencies being argued that Lebron and KD are different. Theyre not. Theyre the same in intent and principle.

PS. Funny how no one ever mentions LMA leaving after having played in Portland his whole career to another contender in the Spurs.

Post #1607 » by **kingkirk** » Mon May 15, 2017 4:51 am

HomoSapien wrote:I mean, you literally devalued the purpose of sports by placing no value on competition.

I placed no value of competition when comparing legacies. What was it about semantics and meaning you were talking about?

Post #1608 » by **kingkirk** » Mon May 15, 2017 4:51 am

HomoSapien wrote:It's still cheap, but not as cheap. Are we allowed to have varying degrees of cheapness or do you want it all to be black and white?

Post #1609 » by **HomoSapien** » Mon May 15, 2017 4:52 am

For what it's worth, I think what KD did is worse than what James did.

And I agree, LMA seems to get a free pass.

Post #1610 » by **HomoSapien** » Mon May 15, 2017 4:52 am

Mark K wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:It's still cheap, but not as cheap. Are we allowed to have varying degrees of cheapness or do you want it all to be black and white?

Mark, why are you being a prick?

Post #1611 » by **kingkirk** » Mon May 15, 2017 4:53 am

HomoSapien wrote:
Mark K wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:It's still cheap, but not as cheap. Are we allowed to have varying degrees of cheapness or do you want it all to be black and white?

Mark, why are you being a prick?

Personal attack

Post #1612 » by **HomoSapien** » Mon May 15, 2017 4:53 am

Mark K wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:I mean, you literally devalued the purpose of sports by placing no value on competition.

I placed no value of competition when comparing legacies. What was it about semantics and meaning you were talking about?

I'm sorry, is this not a discussion about legacies?

GetBuLLish · Post #1613 » by **GetBuLLish** » Mon May 15, 2017 4:54 am

DanTown8587 wrote:Two people answered your hypothetical: it's a completely different scenario if a collection of players take drastically less than their market values to "team up" and play on a team than three guys taking their max deals that they'd get on 29 other teams.

Just saying that they are different scenarios does not answer my hypothetical. You and Mark are arguing that level of competition and players circumventing their prime competition should not devalue their achievements.

So why shouldn't that same logic apply to 10 top players joining each other. The only difference you've pointed out is that in my hypothetical the players are taking pay cuts. What is the practical importance of that difference? You and Mark have consistently stated that because Lebron/Durant did not break any rules, they should not be criticized. Well taking a pay cut is not breaking the rules either.

Your stance lacks a logical basis. Which my hypothetical illustrates.

This entire argument reminds me of the line from a Few Good Men

Great movie. Terrible reference.

So by your own words, his legacy is impacted by not winning titles. So he goes to win titles somewhere else because it can't happen in Cleveland and then...it impacts his legacy to win titles?

Here's a movie quote for you:

"How can you be so obtuse?"

Name the movie.

Post #1614 » by **kingkirk** » Mon May 15, 2017 4:54 am

HomoSapien wrote:I'm sorry, is this not a discussion about legacies?

It is, but you just said I placed no value in sports.

HomoSapien wrote:I mean, you literally devalued the purpose of sports by placing no value on competition.

Semantics, nuance, meaning, etc.

DanTown8587 · Post #1615 » by **DanTown8587** » Mon May 15, 2017 4:55 am

HomoSapien wrote:
DanTown8587 wrote:
It's mind boggling to me that LeBron going to Miami is seen as a slap in the face to competition but LeBron going to a team with two of the previous three #1 overall picks (one of which was traded for a guy as good if not better than Bosh was at the time of him going to Miami) is somehow completely different.

Just because they were drafted #1 doesn't mean they are top of the line talents though. They're very talented players, but their success in the league prior James had been poor.

So how much talent (either in aggregate or number of elite players that you define as elite) moves the scales?

Post #1616 » by **HomoSapien** » Mon May 15, 2017 4:56 am

I'll say this:

I don't see James joining Miami and Cleveland as being the exact same thing.

But if you do, then your argument is that James really circumvented competition for all three of his rings. If you think that or at least are arguing that, then that really hurts his legacy.

andrewww · Post #1617 » by **andrewww** » Mon May 15, 2017 4:57 am

HomoSapien wrote:For what it's worth, I think what KD did is worse than what James did.

And I agree, LMA seems to get a free pass.

Ive always said that KD out lebron'd...Lebron. But lets not kid ourselves.

I will say though..the spirit of not joining the enemy is highly debatable on both points of view..even my boy Kobe while he never joined anyone else...he made a trade demand when mgmt wasnt surrounding him with enough talent during his peak years (06/07 IMO).. the truth is very few stars have the loyalty that we see in the previous generations... I mean no one would argue that Magic or Bird lacked talent around them right? It was basically the battle of super teams year after year including the Sixers..

I've never held it against Lebron for being mentally weak by joining other stars..but at the same time I dont praise his 6 and soon to be 7 straight Finals appearances as an accomplishment.. considering the talent disparity between his teams and the east.. he SHOULD make it every year... the league itself is complicit in this era of free agency forming super teams.. when the be player this decade is consistently doing this other stars see they have no choice but to follow suit..

Post #1618 » by **kingkirk** » Mon May 15, 2017 4:57 am

GetBuLLish wrote:Just saying that they are different scenarios does not answer my hypothetical. You and Mark are arguing that level of competition and players circumventing their prime competition should not devalue their achievements.

This is correct. I've argued this because I think it's unfair to criticize LeBron for joining Wade and Bosh via free agency whilst holding someone like Magic Johnson in esteem because he never had to leave the Lakers, despite playing with KAJ and Worthy.

The way those teams were put together differs but the act is essentially the same thing: winning titles with a big 3.

That's why I don't lessen LeBron's titles.

Post #1619 » by **HomoSapien** » Mon May 15, 2017 4:57 am

DanTown8587 wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:
DanTown8587 wrote:
It's mind boggling to me that LeBron going to Miami is seen as a slap in the face to competition but LeBron going to a team with two of the previous three #1 overall picks (one of which was traded for a guy as good if not better than Bosh was at the time of him going to Miami) is somehow completely different.

Just because they were drafted #1 doesn't mean they are top of the line talents though. They're very talented players, but their success in the league prior James had been poor.

So how much talent (either in aggregate or number of elite players that you define as elite) moves the scales?

I'm not sure. It's hard to put a precise value on that, but my own personal opinion here is that Wade and Bosh were top 10 players in their prime and Irving and Love aren't.

Post #1620 » by **HomoSapien** » Mon May 15, 2017 5:00 am

andrewww wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:For what it's worth, I think what KD did is worse than what James did.

And I agree, LMA seems to get a free pass.

Ive always said that KD out lebron'd...Lebron. But lets not kid ourselves.

I will say though..the spirit of not joining the enemy is highly debatable on both points of view..even my boy Kobe while he never joined anyone else...he made a trade demand when mgmt wasnt surrounding him with enough talent during his peak years (06/07 IMO).. the truth is very few stars have the loyalty that we see in the previous generations... I mean no one would argue that Magic or Bird lacked talent around them right? It was basically the battle of super teams year after year including the Sixers..

I've never held it against Lebron for being mentally weak by joining other stars..but at the same time I dont praise his 6 and soon to be 7 straight Finals appearances as an accomplishment.. considering the talent disparity between his teams and the east.. he SHOULD make it every year... the league itself is complicit in this era of free agency forming super teams.. when the be player this decade is consistently doing this other stars see they have no choice but to follow suit..

I do consider the 7 straight finals appearances to be an amazing feat, but you are right that he was expected to be there.

His two biggest accomplishments IMO are:

1.) Beating the Heat.
2.) Getting to the finals with Illgauskas, Gibson, etc.