Around the NBA: Playoff Edition #2

[Mech Engineer]

In fairness, it's difficult to say who the 2nd best player in the East currently is. On modern analytics, it's Jimmy Butler, which is the choice I would make. But he is hardly a lock. Decent arguments can be made for half a dozen other guys.

What's clear is that if Wall is the 2nd best player in the East, he is by no means clearly so. Nobody who argues for Wall should do so with any more certainty than I do for Butler.

IMO, whoever(Giannis, Jimmy, Wall or even DeRozan) develops a consistent 3p shot, they will be the 2nd best or the best in a year. Otherwise, it's a game to game or matchup based impact.

Paul George has a better 3 pt shot but he doesn't do the other things these other guys do at a high level.

[Rerisen]

In fairness, it's difficult to say who the 2nd best player in the East currently is. On modern analytics, it's Jimmy Butler, which is the choice I would make. But he is hardly a lock. Decent arguments can be made for half a dozen other guys.

What's clear is that if Wall is the 2nd best player in the East, he is by no means clearly so. Nobody who argues for Wall should do so with any more certainty than I do for Butler.

Right, Bulls have arguably the 2nd best player in the East. Either 2nd, or right there with a couple other guys.

This screams blow it up!

[HomoSapien]

In fairness, it's difficult to say who the 2nd best player in the East currently is. On modern analytics, it's Jimmy Butler, which is the choice I would make. But he is hardly a lock. Decent arguments can be made for half a dozen other guys.

What's clear is that if Wall is the 2nd best player in the East, he is by no means clearly so. Nobody who argues for Wall should do so with any more certainty than I do for Butler.

Right, Bulls have arguably the 2nd best player in the East. Either 2nd, or right there with a couple other guys.

This screams blow it up!

In all seriousness, the Bulls seemed capable of beating an ECF team. Does that give any of the blow it up crowd some pause? If you just replaced guys like Grant, Zipser, etc with true NBA role players you'd probably see a significantly stronger team.

[Ice Man]

Right, Bulls have arguably the 2nd best player in the East. Either 2nd, or right there with a couple other guys.

This screams blow it up!

I understand the concern about the time frame. The Bulls don't currently have a player who can develop into a Top Three player on a title contender. It would be one thing if they had Butler and the early version of the Splash Brothers. But they have nada, and even if they do get such players through the draft those guys will be getting highly useful about the time that Jimmy is declining.

So I get that part. I can see the logic for taking a different path than hanging onto Butler and hoping to find two more pieces.

But ... Butler absolutely is one of those pieces. It's not as if he isn't and Wall is. If we had Wall instead of Jimmy, we'd be in the same boat. Well any top Eastern player instead of Jimmy, except for Giannis because he is meaningfully younger.

[Ice Man]

In all seriousness, the Bulls seemed capable of beating an ECF team

Hmmm, I dunno. But I thought we played them as well as the Wizards did.

[kingkirk]

Rajon Rondo playing one great game and fooling everyone into thinking we'd beat the Celtics (and even should keep him around) is the best Rondo troll job he's had in his career.

[GetBuLLish]

"Completely arbitrary" or "the basis of my argument". Due to the current cap structure, max players basically get paid no matter what team they are on. If James plays on Cleveland or he had gone to Golden State or he had gone to Brooklyn, he makes the same money. Do I think James (or any other top five player) should be dissuaded from going to a certain team that offers them a chance to win? No. That's on the league and 29 other teams to offer him that chance to win.

I have zero problems if a player takes his market value and goes to any team; it's not on a James or Durant or Curry to balance talent in the league. If players take far less than market value to create teams that otherwise would be impossible, then I'll start to blame players.

Essentially, I don't think Durant goes in to FA last summer and should be held to a standard that says he can't go to Golden State or Cleveland. Or in LeBrons case, if a team has both quality players and his friends on it that he can't go there. I mean LeBron and just Wade is probably a super team.

First, you didn't answer my hypothetical.

Second, you've yet to explain why you take exception to players taking significant paycuts and why that fact alone alters your perception of players teaming up with one another. So please explain.

Third, did you have a problem with David West taking a $10M pay cut to join the Warriors? Did you have a problem with Duncan taking big pay cuts to stay with the Spurs. I don't recall you raising concerns about that but perhaps I just missed it.

[HoopsterJones]

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I want the Celtics to lose against the Cavs. The Celtics fans mouthing off like a bunch of chihuahuas all over the forum has me beyond annoyed. Act like you've been there before instead of being a bunch of babies because people doubted your team.

[DanTown8587]

"Completely arbitrary" or "the basis of my argument". Due to the current cap structure, max players basically get paid no matter what team they are on. If James plays on Cleveland or he had gone to Golden State or he had gone to Brooklyn, he makes the same money. Do I think James (or any other top five player) should be dissuaded from going to a certain team that offers them a chance to win? No. That's on the league and 29 other teams to offer him that chance to win.

I have zero problems if a player takes his market value and goes to any team; it's not on a James or Durant or Curry to balance talent in the league. If players take far less than market value to create teams that otherwise would be impossible, then I'll start to blame players.

Essentially, I don't think Durant goes in to FA last summer and should be held to a standard that says he can't go to Golden State or Cleveland. Or in LeBrons case, if a team has both quality players and his friends on it that he can't go there. I mean LeBron and just Wade is probably a super team.

First, you didn't answer my hypothetical.

Second, you've yet to explain why you take exception to players taking significant paycuts and why that fact alone alters your perception of players teaming up with one another. So please explain.

Third, did you have a problem with David West taking a $10M pay cut to join the Warriors? Did you have a problem with Duncan taking big pay cuts to stay with the Spurs. I don't recall you raising concerns about that but perhaps I just missed it.

West went to the Spurs and that's a far greater problem than anything James has ever done in FA. Veterans will always ring chase but West's decision allowed the Spurs to empty the roster to sign Aldridge. That's the kind of move that is tough to endorse because what could some other team do? While I understand vets will almost always choose winning over money when it's close, you shouldn't basically exclude teams from signing vets who need to sign them.

When players take less, it throws off competitive balance in an uncontrollable way. When James or any other max FA chooses their team, that's an undue circumstance placed on them no matter where they go. The real answer is no cap on player salaries and caps on team spending; capping players salaries creates surplus value to having the best player(s) twice: once on the court and then again in terms of cap. Because of that "double" tax, teams (like say Chicago now) are in no win positions. They can neither spend more efficiently or aquire better players.

[GetBuLLish]

When players take less, it throws off competitive balance in an uncontrollable way.

What does this mean, an "uncontrollable way"?

Does Durant joining a 73 win team not throw off competitive balance? Does LeBron joining 2 other top 10 players not throw off competitive balance?

And haven't you and Mark been trying to debunk the idea of competitive balance? Isn't that what this whole conversation has been about?

And once again, you didn't answer my hypothetical with a no-cap league and the 10 superstars joining each other on one team.

[kingkirk]

Hinkie destroyed the Sixers, they said. He ruined a franchise and lost a generation of fans, they said.

Read on Twitter

[HomoSapien]

Rajon Rondo playing one great game and fooling everyone into thinking we'd beat the Celtics (and even should keep him around) is the best Rondo troll job he's had in his career.

I mean, we were up 2-0 and completely fell apart after he got injured. I think most analysts had us beating the Celtics at that point. I don't think it's foolish to think we had a pretty strong shot of defeating them had he stayed healthy.

[kingkirk]

I mean, we were up 2-0 and completely fell apart after he got injured. I think most analysts had us beating the Celtics at that point. I don't think it's foolish to think we had a pretty strong shot of defeating them had he stayed healthy.

You're ignoring the adjustments the Celtics made, to which the Bulls had no defensive counter. Rondo doesn't change that. Butler was also hurt. That doesn't go away.

[GimmeDat]

Hinkie destroyed the Sixers, they said. He ruined a franchise and lost a generation of fans, they said.

Read on Twitter

Sam Hinkie is my religion.

[HomoSapien]

I mean, we were up 2-0 and completely fell apart after he got injured. I think most analysts had us beating the Celtics at that point. I don't think it's foolish to think we had a pretty strong shot of defeating them had he stayed healthy.

You're ignoring the adjustments the Celtics made, to which the Bulls had no defensive counter. Rondo doesn't change that. Butler was also hurt. That doesn't go away.

I'm not ignoring it, I'm just not ignoring the fact that Grant and MCW could barely dribble the ball up court or feed the post. That sort of matters. Those two combined for a 105 minutes of terrible, terrible basketball. You replace a bulk of those minutes with Rondo, you not only see a better run offense, but you get more rebounds, points, assists, and possibly better contributions from Niko and Wade. You also have a point guard who can successfully feed Lopez (who at that point, was a major factor in the series) in the post. If you'll recall, Grant botched 3 straight feeds to Lopez in game three.

Boston deserves a lot of credit, but I find it hard to believe that they win 4 in a row after dropping the first two if Rondo is healthy.

[HomoSapien]

I hate that the term "fake news" has made its way to ESPN.

[kingkirk]

I'm not ignoring it, I'm just not ignoring the fact that Grant and MCW could barely dribble the ball up court or feed the post. That sort of matters. Those two combined for a 105 minutes of terrible, terrible basketball. You replace a bulk of those minutes with Rondo, you not only see a better run offense, but you get more rebounds, points, assists, and possibly better contributions from Niko and Wade. You also have a point guard who can successfully feed Lopez (who at that point, was a major factor in the series) in the post. If you'll recall, Grant botched 3 straight feeds to Lopez in game three.

Boston deserves a lot of credit, but I find it hard to believe that they win 4 in a row after dropping the first two if Rondo is healthy.

They probably don't win 4 in a row, but i find it hard to believe that the Bulls could suddenly guard 48 minutes of Boston high pick and rolls without Thomas and Horford dissecting the defense, to the point where Rondo actually makes a difference.

And why are we're assuming Rondo would actually be good for the rest of the series? There is significantly more evidence suggesting he's a bad player than a good one.

[HomoSapien]

I'm not ignoring it, I'm just not ignoring the fact that Grant and MCW could barely dribble the ball up court or feed the post. That sort of matters. Those two combined for a 105 minutes of terrible, terrible basketball. You replace a bulk of those minutes with Rondo, you not only see a better run offense, but you get more rebounds, points, assists, and possibly better contributions from Niko and Wade. You also have a point guard who can successfully feed Lopez (who at that point, was a major factor in the series) in the post. If you'll recall, Grant botched 3 straight feeds to Lopez in game three.

Boston deserves a lot of credit, but I find it hard to believe that they win 4 in a row after dropping the first two if Rondo is healthy.

They probably don't win 4 in a row, but i find it hard to believe that the Bulls could suddenly guard 48 minutes of Boston high pick and rolls without Thomas and Horford dissecting the defense, to the point where Rondo actually makes a difference.

And why are we're assuming Rondo would actually be good for the rest of the series? There is significantly more evidence suggesting he's a bad player than a good one.

Sure, but he's an incredible upgrade over who we were forced to play and that alone would have helped us. Either way, the odds were certainly in our favor at that point.

[the ultimates]

Could Simmons and Embiid be healthy for a season before we canonize Hinkie? I'm still waiting for Minnesota to take that next step and Milwaukee to run the east.

[BR0D1E86]

I mean, we were up 2-0 and completely fell apart after he got injured. I think most analysts had us beating the Celtics at that point. I don't think it's foolish to think we had a pretty strong shot of defeating them had he stayed healthy.

You're ignoring the adjustments the Celtics made, to which the Bulls had no defensive counter. Rondo doesn't change that. Butler was also hurt. That doesn't go away.

They made adjustments. But I'm not sure any of them was more significant than what happened to the Bulls without Rondo. We went from high pace, high energy to very slow-paced and plodding. We went from well above average production to almost zero production from the PG spot.

Rondo was horrific for most of the year. But after the banishment he was generally a positive player. I'd not lose any sleep over declining the option. I'd also not have any heartache if they bring everybody back. I've been on team blow-it-up for a while now. But I don't think it's in the cards, and if it's not, I have no problem with Rondo being back.