Lonzo Ball

[antonac]

There were definite question marks about Russell's athletic ability coming out of the draft, the dude even looked slow for the Big 10 and that was a major red flag to me. Ive also never been a fan of Russell's jumper even when he was in college while you can go back to well over a year ago on here and Ive been sold on Ball's jumper. Ball is a far far superior prospect than Russell was coming out of college.

this is fair, I personally don't feel that way but pre-draft people will always be higher or lower players than others. So if you're higher on him than you ever were on Russell that's how you're calling it, I'm no expert for sure given who I've been high on in the past.

I just feel like they're going after Russell again, in the 2 spot again, and I don't really see the point. but agree to disagree on this, time will tell.

[Duke4life831]

There were definite question marks about Russell's athletic ability coming out of the draft, the dude even looked slow for the Big 10 and that was a major red flag to me. Ive also never been a fan of Russell's jumper even when he was in college while you can go back to well over a year ago on here and Ive been sold on Ball's jumper. Ball is a far far superior prospect than Russell was coming out of college.

this is fair, I personally don't feel that way but pre-draft people will always be higher or lower players than others. So if you're higher on him than you ever were on Russell that's how you're calling it, I'm no expert for sure given who I've been high on in the past.

I just feel like they're going after Russell again, in the 2 spot again, and I don't really see the point. but agree to disagree on this, time will tell.

Im naturally low on any prospect coming out of the Big 10, its such a slow and plodding conference. I think Ball's game is tailor made for a coach like Walton and I think Russell is better at the 2 guard spot than at the 1. But I agree that no one knows for sure and its all conjecture till we see how it all plays out in the NBA.

[neno]

Hopefully cameras will be on Levar's face when the Lakers pass on Ball at #2.

Or Lonzo's when Lavar goes to shake hands with the Adam Silver and try to Hock some some bunk swag. That when abbreviated is the Better Business Bureau and presale is nu speak for I don't have it. I do believe though his best fit would be Lakers due to Russel and Ingram's abilities (I believe) to play up his strengths while playing down his weakness's​ as him and Russel could both be what(point or shooting)guard they need to be when they need to be.

[Teen Girl Squad]

The thing with Ball is, what does he bring that Russell doesn't?

yeah, he might have a higher ceiling and be able to do everything better but beyond just crossing their fingers that's the case, what's the other evidence?

it's not college stats as Russell was about as hotly tipped coming out of college as Ball.
they're both long PGs, but with suspect on the ball handling, DLo due to his lack of explosion and Ball due to his average handles.
they're both good 3 point shooters.

I mean, they're basically just drafting the same player again, I think that back court sucks in this era where the best backcourts compliment each other, it's got very good three point shooting but they're not going to be great playing off the ball for each other, neither are great at the pick n roll, both are pretty good passers, and while they're big faster guards can blow by them.

I don't think Ball busts, but Jackson and Tatum make better sense for the Lakers.

I'm with you. I'm not passing on a prospect because we have Russell (He's not good enough) but his profile is similar enough to Russell where you need to see the struggles of Russell and how Ball might be similarly effected. With the modern NBA as it is, having elite vision/passing as your primary skill might no longer be as franchise changing as it used to be.

[reanimator]

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[Spens1]

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that shot release makes me weep.

If he keeps that shot he will have to learn how to draw fouls and draw them often.

[Spens1]

The thing with Ball is, what does he bring that Russell doesn't?

yeah, he might have a higher ceiling and be able to do everything better but beyond just crossing their fingers that's the case, what's the other evidence?

it's not college stats as Russell was about as hotly tipped coming out of college as Ball.
they're both long PGs, but with suspect on the ball handling, DLo due to his lack of explosion and Ball due to his average handles.
they're both good 3 point shooters.

I mean, they're basically just drafting the same player again, I think that back court sucks in this era where the best backcourts compliment each other, it's got very good three point shooting but they're not going to be great playing off the ball for each other, neither are great at the pick n roll, both are pretty good passers, and while they're big faster guards can blow by them.

I don't think Ball busts, but Jackson and Tatum make better sense for the Lakers.

actual competent passing and decision making.

Russell was awful running the point for us, so much so you could see Walton pulling his hair out at Russell's decision making.

Ball gives us that ball handler, hell, even Fultz would give us a big upgrade in that area.

[madmaxmedia]

FWIW (courtesy of ESPN 'Sports Science'):

[hoosierdaddy34]

I just don't know what Lonzo does if a team isn't in transition. I whole heartedly agree, in transition he probably is one of the two or three best players drafted in the last ten years.

But in half court? He looks so awful in PNR. And I'm back to having concerns about his shot watching Lakers Film Room point out that if he isn't able to jump forward, he loses his shot. Because of that funky release, its tough for him to get a clean look when guarded. And that's in college...not NBA level defenders. The problem is the fact he brings the ball down so low before bringing it up to shoot it, as well as the final release is at such a low trajectory. He has to fade big time if guarded to get it off and that kills his shot. You get so few open looks in the NBA, you are crazy if you don't think it will be a serious problem. He needs an entire break down of his shot and to rebuild it.

Maybe having Russell around REALLY helps him. You can have Russell run PNR in the half court and Lonzo off ball to catch and shoot in spots he can get his feet set. Plus Russell's mid-range jumper with a defender on him is light years ahead of Lonzo. That's an important shot in today's NBA with all the pick and roll the lead guard is required to run. Lonzo can run lead guard in the open floor where he is at his best.

But as a Laker fan, Josh Jackson looks better and better every time I compare the two.

[Spens1]

FWIW (courtesy of ESPN 'Sports Science'):

Klay has a high release.

Lonzo is around the mid head height.

[E-Balla]

FWIW (courtesy of ESPN 'Sports Science'):

Klay has a high release.

Lonzo is around the mid head height.

That's before his release though. That screenshot was timed with Klay's release, Lonzo is .02 seconds behind. I really don't want to get into the release stuff again so I'll just say we've had people in here calling his release slow and low and others saying the exact opposite. Looks like we were 100% right about his release speed according to sports science and a picture should be all it takes to see his shot ain't low.

[RightToCensor]

I just don't know what Lonzo does if a team isn't in transition. I whole heartedly agree, in transition he probably is one of the two or three best players drafted in the last ten years.

But in half court? He looks so awful in PNR. And I'm back to having concerns about his shot watching Lakers Film Room point out that if he isn't able to jump forward, he loses his shot. Because of that funky release, its tough for him to get a clean look when guarded. And that's in college...not NBA level defenders. The problem is the fact he brings the ball down so low before bringing it up to shoot it, as well as the final release is at such a low trajectory. He has to fade big time if guarded to get it off and that kills his shot. You get so few open looks in the NBA, you are crazy if you don't think it will be a serious problem. He needs an entire break down of his shot and to rebuild it.

Maybe having Russell around REALLY helps him. You can have Russell run PNR in the half court and Lonzo off ball to catch and shoot in spots he can get his feet set. Plus Russell's mid-range jumper with a defender on him is light years ahead of Lonzo. That's an important shot in today's NBA with all the pick and roll the lead guard is required to run. Lonzo can run lead guard in the open floor where he is at his best.

But as a Laker fan, Josh Jackson looks better and better every time I compare the two.

What were you expecting Lonzo to be? If you're focusing on his isolation scoring, then you're ignoring the best parts of his game. He can be a supreme off-ball player that can shoot, pass, and finish above the rim. Nobody knows how good of a shooter he'll be in the NBA but his percentages in college (and the number of deep threes he's hit) should be inspiring. Luke Walton will play Lonzo like he's a Golden State Guard in the half-court, which I think is the perfect role to showcase all his offensive moves. Lonzo just seems like a perfect fit for a Luke Walton ran offense. The biggest worry I see from people about Lonzo is his jumper and if he'll be able to get it off on the next level. When he's coming off (illigal) screens and pulling up 5 ft. behind the three point line, I can't see him, at 6'6", getting his shot blocked by NBA Guards routinely.

In today's NBA it's extremely easy to force defenders to switch assignments off the pick and roll, and I think Lonzo is a capable enough isolation scorer to get points when a big man is guarding him.

[Duke4life831]

FWIW (courtesy of ESPN 'Sports Science'):

Klay has a high release.

Lonzo is around the mid head height.

That's before his release though. That screenshot was timed with Klay's release, Lonzo is .02 seconds behind. I really don't want to get into the release stuff again so I'll just say we've had people in here calling his release slow and low and others saying the exact opposite. Looks like we were 100% right about his release speed according to sports science and a picture should be all it takes to see his shot ain't low.

Ive given up when it comes to discussing his jumpshot. People say its slow and low, so picture after picture gets posted of his release and you can see its not a low release (then add on that hes 6'6) but people just say something like you just found a time where he released it high or something like that. I have no clue why anyone thinks he has a slow release because he gets it off pretty damn quick, but they say its slow. So someone posts someone timing his shot as proof its not slow and now its back to his release is low.

I think its as simple as people arent used to seeing a shot like this so its foreign to them and they just dont accept it. I think Jay Bilas says it best, his shot is like Jim Furyk's golf swing, everything about it is wrong and ugly all the way up to the point where the club hits the ball. Same with Ball's jumper, everything about it is wrong and funky up until the point where he releases it and you can see he has a great angle at the release point.

[hoosierdaddy34]

The thing with Ball is, what does he bring that Russell doesn't?

yeah, he might have a higher ceiling and be able to do everything better but beyond just crossing their fingers that's the case, what's the other evidence?

it's not college stats as Russell was about as hotly tipped coming out of college as Ball.
they're both long PGs, but with suspect on the ball handling, DLo due to his lack of explosion and Ball due to his average handles.
they're both good 3 point shooters.

I mean, they're basically just drafting the same player again, I think that back court sucks in this era where the best backcourts compliment each other, it's got very good three point shooting but they're not going to be great playing off the ball for each other, neither are great at the pick n roll, both are pretty good passers, and while they're big faster guards can blow by them.

I don't think Ball busts, but Jackson and Tatum make better sense for the Lakers.

actual competent passing and decision making.

Russell was awful running the point for us, so much so you could see Walton pulling his hair out at Russell's decision making.

Ball gives us that ball handler, hell, even Fultz would give us a big upgrade in that area.

I disagree with this, we were far worse when Clarkson ran point. That guy has zero pg instincts at all. Russell's main problem was he was too confident he could put the ball whereever he wanted to and thus made turnovers instead of making the simple play. That's correctable whereas Clarkson sometimes to me feels like a total lost cause. He needs to be that guard off the bench you bring in 15 minutes per night to just attack the rim, that's his only gear.

[Spens1]

The thing with Ball is, what does he bring that Russell doesn't?

yeah, he might have a higher ceiling and be able to do everything better but beyond just crossing their fingers that's the case, what's the other evidence?

it's not college stats as Russell was about as hotly tipped coming out of college as Ball.
they're both long PGs, but with suspect on the ball handling, DLo due to his lack of explosion and Ball due to his average handles.
they're both good 3 point shooters.

I mean, they're basically just drafting the same player again, I think that back court sucks in this era where the best backcourts compliment each other, it's got very good three point shooting but they're not going to be great playing off the ball for each other, neither are great at the pick n roll, both are pretty good passers, and while they're big faster guards can blow by them.

I don't think Ball busts, but Jackson and Tatum make better sense for the Lakers.

actual competent passing and decision making.

Russell was awful running the point for us, so much so you could see Walton pulling his hair out at Russell's decision making.

Ball gives us that ball handler, hell, even Fultz would give us a big upgrade in that area.

I disagree with this, we were far worse when Clarkson ran point. That guy has zero pg instincts at all. Russell's main problem was he was too confident he could put the ball whereever he wanted to and thus made turnovers instead of making the simple play. That's correctable whereas Clarkson sometimes to me feels like a total lost cause. He needs to be that guard off the bench you bring in 15 minutes per night to just attack the rim, that's his only gear.

yeah but Clarkson was just even more incompetent at Point because he was always looking for his own points. Russell somewhat looked to pass, but his decision making was bad and it cost us.

[reanimator]

"Lonzo Ball can't score in the half-court"

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[Duke4life831]

I just don't know what Lonzo does if a team isn't in transition. I whole heartedly agree, in transition he probably is one of the two or three best players drafted in the last ten years.

But in half court? He looks so awful in PNR. And I'm back to having concerns about his shot watching Lakers Film Room point out that if he isn't able to jump forward, he loses his shot. Because of that funky release, its tough for him to get a clean look when guarded. And that's in college...not NBA level defenders. The problem is the fact he brings the ball down so low before bringing it up to shoot it, as well as the final release is at such a low trajectory. He has to fade big time if guarded to get it off and that kills his shot. You get so few open looks in the NBA, you are crazy if you don't think it will be a serious problem. He needs an entire break down of his shot and to rebuild it.

Maybe having Russell around REALLY helps him. You can have Russell run PNR in the half court and Lonzo off ball to catch and shoot in spots he can get his feet set. Plus Russell's mid-range jumper with a defender on him is light years ahead of Lonzo. That's an important shot in today's NBA with all the pick and roll the lead guard is required to run. Lonzo can run lead guard in the open floor where he is at his best.

But as a Laker fan, Josh Jackson looks better and better every time I compare the two.

What were you expecting Lonzo to be? If you're focusing on his isolation scoring, then you're ignoring the best parts of his game. He can be a supreme off-ball player that can shoot, pass, and finish above the rim. Nobody knows how good of a shooter he'll be in the NBA but his percentages in college (and the number of deep threes he's hit) should be inspiring. Luke Walton will play Lonzo like he's a Golden State Guard in the half-court, which I think is the perfect role to showcase all his offensive moves. Lonzo just seems like a perfect fit for a Luke Walton ran offense. The biggest worry I see from people about Lonzo is his jumper and if he'll be able to get it off on the next level. When he's coming off (illigal) screens and pulling up 5 ft. behind the three point line, I can't see him, at 6'6", getting his shot blocked by NBA Guards routinely.

In today's NBA it's extremely easy to force defenders to switch assignments off the pick and roll, and I think Lonzo is a capable enough isolation scorer to get points when a big man is guarding him.

Also yes Lonzo is phenomenal in transition but its not like he struggled in the half court in college either. Transition wasnt the only reason UCLA was one of the most high powered offenses college ball has seen in a long time. Ball was also elite at running a half court offense. This is a dude that led the entire NCAA in assists and ended up with a TS% of 68%. That didnt all come from transition, Ball is phenomenal in half court with his vision, passing and ability to shoot from deep.

[hoosierdaddy34]

I just don't know what Lonzo does if a team isn't in transition. I whole heartedly agree, in transition he probably is one of the two or three best players drafted in the last ten years.

But in half court? He looks so awful in PNR. And I'm back to having concerns about his shot watching Lakers Film Room point out that if he isn't able to jump forward, he loses his shot. Because of that funky release, its tough for him to get a clean look when guarded. And that's in college...not NBA level defenders. The problem is the fact he brings the ball down so low before bringing it up to shoot it, as well as the final release is at such a low trajectory. He has to fade big time if guarded to get it off and that kills his shot. You get so few open looks in the NBA, you are crazy if you don't think it will be a serious problem. He needs an entire break down of his shot and to rebuild it.

Maybe having Russell around REALLY helps him. You can have Russell run PNR in the half court and Lonzo off ball to catch and shoot in spots he can get his feet set. Plus Russell's mid-range jumper with a defender on him is light years ahead of Lonzo. That's an important shot in today's NBA with all the pick and roll the lead guard is required to run. Lonzo can run lead guard in the open floor where he is at his best.

But as a Laker fan, Josh Jackson looks better and better every time I compare the two.

What were you expecting Lonzo to be? If you're focusing on his isolation scoring, then you're ignoring the best parts of his game. He can be a supreme off-ball player that can shoot, pass, and finish above the rim. Nobody knows how good of a shooter he'll be in the NBA but his percentages in college (and the number of deep threes he's hit) should be inspiring. Luke Walton will play Lonzo like he's a Golden State Guard in the half-court, which I think is the perfect role to showcase all his offensive moves. Lonzo just seems like a perfect fit for a Luke Walton ran offense. The biggest worry I see from people about Lonzo is his jumper and if he'll be able to get it off on the next level. When he's coming off (illigal) screens and pulling up 5 ft. behind the three point line, I can't see him, at 6'6", getting his shot blocked by NBA Guards routinely.

In today's NBA it's extremely easy to force defenders to switch assignments off the pick and roll, and I think Lonzo is a capable enough isolation scorer to get points when a big man is guarding him.

I expect an NBA pg to have some PNR skills, he isn't even a very good passer out of it. Simple pocket bounce pass, it's not there. This is high school basketball fundamentals he now has to learn at the NBA level, that's not normal for a high level prospect. He doesn't have many tools in his bag to finish as a PNR ball handler, no off the dribble jumper, no floater, and he isn't a great body control finisher at the rim. If guarded I question his ability to get his shot off against an NBA defender, and frankly he doesn't have the ability to get by a defender very often. He isn't that pg who can get to the teeth of the defense to get it to collapse where he can then find open shooters. You aren't always going to be able to force a switch onto a big slow center. Today's small ball 4s and even 5s aren't going to have much of a problem staying in front of him. This isn't college where you get one slow center after another. Can he beat a Tristan Thompson, or Cauley-Stein, or Al Horford off the dribble? I don't know that he can. That's a big potential problem.

On the contrary I think he has a lot of deficiencies of a modern day PG.

Yes he is dominant in transition but he is lucky a dude like Russell is around that can do the things in half court that Ball can't. That was my point.

[Duke4life831]

I just don't know what Lonzo does if a team isn't in transition. I whole heartedly agree, in transition he probably is one of the two or three best players drafted in the last ten years.

But in half court? He looks so awful in PNR. And I'm back to having concerns about his shot watching Lakers Film Room point out that if he isn't able to jump forward, he loses his shot. Because of that funky release, its tough for him to get a clean look when guarded. And that's in college...not NBA level defenders. The problem is the fact he brings the ball down so low before bringing it up to shoot it, as well as the final release is at such a low trajectory. He has to fade big time if guarded to get it off and that kills his shot. You get so few open looks in the NBA, you are crazy if you don't think it will be a serious problem. He needs an entire break down of his shot and to rebuild it.

Maybe having Russell around REALLY helps him. You can have Russell run PNR in the half court and Lonzo off ball to catch and shoot in spots he can get his feet set. Plus Russell's mid-range jumper with a defender on him is light years ahead of Lonzo. That's an important shot in today's NBA with all the pick and roll the lead guard is required to run. Lonzo can run lead guard in the open floor where he is at his best.

But as a Laker fan, Josh Jackson looks better and better every time I compare the two.

What were you expecting Lonzo to be? If you're focusing on his isolation scoring, then you're ignoring the best parts of his game. He can be a supreme off-ball player that can shoot, pass, and finish above the rim. Nobody knows how good of a shooter he'll be in the NBA but his percentages in college (and the number of deep threes he's hit) should be inspiring. Luke Walton will play Lonzo like he's a Golden State Guard in the half-court, which I think is the perfect role to showcase all his offensive moves. Lonzo just seems like a perfect fit for a Luke Walton ran offense. The biggest worry I see from people about Lonzo is his jumper and if he'll be able to get it off on the next level. When he's coming off (illigal) screens and pulling up 5 ft. behind the three point line, I can't see him, at 6'6", getting his shot blocked by NBA Guards routinely.

In today's NBA it's extremely easy to force defenders to switch assignments off the pick and roll, and I think Lonzo is a capable enough isolation scorer to get points when a big man is guarding him.

I expect an NBA pg to have some PNR skills, he isn't even a very good passer out of it. Simple pocket bounce pass, it's not there. This is high school basketball fundamentals he now has to learn at the NBA level, that's not normal for a high level prospect. He doesn't have many tools in his bag to finish as a PNR ball handler, no off the dribble jumper, no floater, and he isn't a great body control finisher at the rim. If guarded I question his ability to get his shot off against an NBA defender, and frankly he doesn't have the ability to get by a defender very often. He isn't that pg who can get to the teeth of the defense to get it to collapse where he can then find open shooters. You aren't always going to be able to force a switch onto a big slow center. Today's small ball 4s and even 5s aren't going to have much of a problem staying in front of him. This isn't college where you get one slow center after another. Can he beat a Tristan Thompson, or Cauley-Stein, or Al Horford off the dribble? I don't know that he can. That's a big potential problem.

On the contrary I think he has a lot of deficiencies of a modern day PG.

Basically everything you just said was just debunked by reanimator's post above you with stats

[hoosierdaddy34]

What were you expecting Lonzo to be? If you're focusing on his isolation scoring, then you're ignoring the best parts of his game. He can be a supreme off-ball player that can shoot, pass, and finish above the rim. Nobody knows how good of a shooter he'll be in the NBA but his percentages in college (and the number of deep threes he's hit) should be inspiring. Luke Walton will play Lonzo like he's a Golden State Guard in the half-court, which I think is the perfect role to showcase all his offensive moves. Lonzo just seems like a perfect fit for a Luke Walton ran offense. The biggest worry I see from people about Lonzo is his jumper and if he'll be able to get it off on the next level. When he's coming off (illigal) screens and pulling up 5 ft. behind the three point line, I can't see him, at 6'6", getting his shot blocked by NBA Guards routinely.

In today's NBA it's extremely easy to force defenders to switch assignments off the pick and roll, and I think Lonzo is a capable enough isolation scorer to get points when a big man is guarding him.

I expect an NBA pg to have some PNR skills, he isn't even a very good passer out of it. Simple pocket bounce pass, it's not there. This is high school basketball fundamentals he now has to learn at the NBA level, that's not normal for a high level prospect. He doesn't have many tools in his bag to finish as a PNR ball handler, no off the dribble jumper, no floater, and he isn't a great body control finisher at the rim. If guarded I question his ability to get his shot off against an NBA defender, and frankly he doesn't have the ability to get by a defender very often. He isn't that pg who can get to the teeth of the defense to get it to collapse where he can then find open shooters. You aren't always going to be able to force a switch onto a big slow center. Today's small ball 4s and even 5s aren't going to have much of a problem staying in front of him. This isn't college where you get one slow center after another. Can he beat a Tristan Thompson, or Cauley-Stein, or Al Horford off the dribble? I don't know that he can. That's a big potential problem.

On the contrary I think he has a lot of deficiencies of a modern day PG.

Basically everything you just said was just debunked by reanimator's post above you with stats

College stats and NBA stats aren't remotely translatable. 98% of guys you face in college aren't NBA level defenders with NBA level length, quickness and athleticism. Great he puts up fantastic stats against UC Santa Barbara. That has nothing to do with what he can do against the Spurs or even the Heat.

When you start to focus in on his games against teams with more pro-prospects, Oregon, Arizona, Kentucky, he shot just 33% from 3 in those 6 games. And if you take out the one Arizona game that they didn't have Trier, that number drops to below 30%. And that is at the college distance for 3, not the deeper NBA 3. How does that support a theory that when the competition gets even tougher that he will all of a sudden start to thrive?