Lonzo Ball

[madmaxmedia]

So here's the link to the entire video-
http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=19393173

And here's a frame grab right near the release point, is it really any or that much different than Klay's? I don't think so.


I don't know how rigorous their measurements are, but I assume they should be more accurate than one of us with a stopwatch and Youtube video. Besides release point and shot time, the other thing I could think of as a possible negative is whether his form makes it easier for a defender to pick up on as he starts his shot. My inclination is to say no, because every shooter has a starting point for his shot or tendencies that defenders can look for. Off the dribble, the ball is coming off the ground anyway. On a catch and shoot, yeah it helps if you don't have to drop the ball down to your hip. But a lot of players do that, he's not unique in that regard. If that shot time is accurate than it helps.

I think if he was that easy to defend on the 3, he wouldn't have shot 41%. That's not to say he won't have adjustments to make, but he'll be able to take open 3's without requiring an inordinate amount of room. I think his 3 will be fine from the perspective of being a point guard and his other strengths.

[madmaxmedia]

He does have a lazy handle which he'll need to work on, which resulted in too many picks in college. But I think he'll learn that fine.

[Lalouie]

good offense beats good defense. that's what they say, right. so what's so special about fox that people are comparing his D to ball's D, as if implying ball is some kind of slackard on D. fox won't stop westbrook or irving or curry or lowry or cp3 or lillard or wall or walker.,,,are teams thinking about fox's D like they expect him to DO something??

every defensive player who's ever been drafted had to build an offense(no bigger example than ewing), and every defensive player who didn't remained a niche defensive spot player. today's nba is all about offense. avery bradley was drafted for his athleticism and defense. fox = bradley.

most draftees are a rehash of all the draftees before them. some put up good numbers some don't, and they all don't help their teams (maybe davis and towns have). but what do we see every single year.....the same old lottery teams in their familiar lottery spots. all that lottery talent and what do they have to show for it - nada. so why is fox so special. or fultz or jackson or smith.

what you have in lonzo ball is a player who has a generational talent, actually more like a GIFT. don't forget, UCLA was 15-17 a year ago

so here's the risk/reward imo. if all the draftees play as expected, ball will do what no other player can do. if ball doesn't live up to expectations and, say, fox does, what will be the disparity? i believe NOT MUCH because the bottom line is fox's team will still be a lottery team the following year. that's just the way things have rolled. therefore the reward is far greater with ball than the risk he presents, while the other players' reward is they'll put up numbers...you know, maybe like wiggins numbers and minnie hasn't come close to sniffing the 40wins klove gave them, and they're STILL lottery. LOL

if a lottery team wants to stay mired in lottery-land then draft a numbers player who will give then +1 win. if they want to extricate themselves from the lottery the best chance is to draft zo ball because he's the ONLY one who will do it.

Also,, Ball is an elite talent. Elite talents figure out a way,,, that's why they're elite

[atlantabbq99]

I think Ball could be Rubio with a 3pt shot. I don't think he will be an MVP caliber player like Lebron or Curry, but he could be a multi all star player like Melo and Wall. I think Ball can get to be a 18/11 player and shoot .380 from three, with Rubio level defense, but not Kidd level defense.

[JHFVF07]

I think Ball could be Rubio with a 3pt shot. I don't think he will be an MVP caliber player like Lebron or Curry, but he could be a multi all star player like Melo and Wall. I think Ball can get to be a 18/11 player and shoot .380 from three, with Rubio level defense, but not Kidd level defense.

This. And if can help Russell, Ingram, Randle and Zubac become a better version of themselves, he will bring more to the table than his numbers.

[sikma42]

I think Ball could be Rubio with a 3pt shot. I don't think he will be an MVP caliber player like Lebron or Curry, but he could be a multi all star player like Melo and Wall. I think Ball can get to be a 18/11 player and shoot .380 from three, with Rubio level defense, but not Kidd level defense.

Rubio is/was a much better passer an has elite pick and roll ability. He was running the pick and roll better than Lonzo at 14 or 15. ALSO Rubio is one else of the best pgs defenders in the league and has been a ball hawk since the beginning, Lonzo has not even been a good defender.

I really think Lonzo is getting overrated. There a lot of things he can't do that a point guard should be able to handle. I don't think he is the 2nd BPA

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[RightToCensor]

Watch on YouTube

[peachbucket]

I think Ball could be Rubio with a 3pt shot. I don't think he will be an MVP caliber player like Lebron or Curry, but he could be a multi all star player like Melo and Wall. I think Ball can get to be a 18/11 player and shoot .380 from three, with Rubio level defense, but not Kidd level defense.

Rubio is/was a much better passer an has elite pick and roll ability. He was running the pick and roll better than Lonzo at 14 or 15. ALSO Rubio is one else of the best pgs defenders in the league and has been a ball hawk since the beginning, Lonzo has not even been a good defender.

I really think Lonzo is getting overrated. There a lot of things he can't do that a point guard should be able to handle. I don't think he is the 2nd BPA

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Disagree with Ruobio being a better passer. Lonzo is as good a passer as I've ever seen.

[sikma42]

I think Ball could be Rubio with a 3pt shot. I don't think he will be an MVP caliber player like Lebron or Curry, but he could be a multi all star player like Melo and Wall. I think Ball can get to be a 18/11 player and shoot .380 from three, with Rubio level defense, but not Kidd level defense.

Rubio is/was a much better passer an has elite pick and roll ability. He was running the pick and roll better than Lonzo at 14 or 15. ALSO Rubio is one else of the best pgs defenders in the league and has been a ball hawk since the beginning, Lonzo has not even been a good defender.

I really think Lonzo is getting overrated. There a lot of things he can't do that a point guard should be able to handle. I don't think he is the 2nd BPA

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Disagree with Ruobio being a better passer. Lonzo is as good a passer as I've ever seen.

I don't understand how you think Lonzo is better passer when there are several passes he can't make out of the pick and roll? Ball has some real issues imo in the half court and I'm worried about him as a possible Laker

Kendall Marshall just on pure passing ability, was also a better passer. Everything else, athleticism and jumper just wasn't there.

[Marcus]

Rubio is/was a much better passer an has elite pick and roll ability. He was running the pick and roll better than Lonzo at 14 or 15. ALSO Rubio is one else of the best pgs defenders in the league and has been a ball hawk since the beginning, Lonzo has not even been a good defender.

I really think Lonzo is getting overrated. There a lot of things he can't do that a point guard should be able to handle. I don't think he is the 2nd BPA

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Disagree with Ruobio being a better passer. Lonzo is as good a passer as I've ever seen.

I don't understand how you think Lonzo is better passer when there are several passes he can't make out of the pick and roll? Ball has some real issues imo in the half court and I'm worried about him as a possible Laker

Kendall Marshall just on pure passing ability, was also a better passer. Everything else, athleticism and jumper just wasn't there.

What passes can't he make out of PnR?

[sikma42]

Disagree with Ruobio being a better passer. Lonzo is as good a passer as I've ever seen.

I don't understand how you think Lonzo is better passer when there are several passes he can't make out of the pick and roll? Ball has some real issues imo in the half court and I'm worried about him as a possible Laker

Kendall Marshall just on pure passing ability, was also a better passer. Everything else, athleticism and jumper just wasn't there.

What passes can't he make out of PnR?

He struggles to make pocket passes and the timing on other passes has been poor. Out of the pick and roll he has been very bad



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[Marcus]

I don't understand how you think Lonzo is better passer when there are several passes he can't make out of the pick and roll? Ball has some real issues imo in the half court and I'm worried about him as a possible Laker

Kendall Marshall just on pure passing ability, was also a better passer. Everything else, athleticism and jumper just wasn't there.

What passes can't he make out of PnR?

He struggles to make pocket passes and the timing on other passes has been poor. Out of the pick and roll he has been very bad



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Timing on what "other" passes?

[reanimator]

Certain people will stick to narrative no matter how much statistical information and footage you provide. Don't see the upside and continually engaging these talking points tbh.

[darealjuice]

To be fair the statistical information does say he turns the ball over at a pretty high rate in PnR scenarios (I'll see if I can find the stats). I think it's something he'll learn fine, but it's not a lie that he wasn't that good in PnR this year.

[reanimator]

To be fair the statistical information does say he turns the ball over at a pretty high rate in PnR scenarios (I'll see if I can find the stats). I think it's something he'll learn fine, but it's not a lie that he wasn't that good in PnR this year.

I've already posted the info....he is in the 88 percentile in PnR at the D1 level, scores out of it at en elite level, and shoots an absurd percentage despite some turnover issues. That doesn't = bad in PnR.

[darealjuice]

To be fair the statistical information does say he turns the ball over at a pretty high rate in PnR scenarios (I'll see if I can find the stats). I think it's something he'll learn fine, but it's not a lie that he wasn't that good in PnR this year.

I've already posted the info....he is in the 88 percentile in PnR at the D1 level, scores out of it at en elite level, and shoots an absurd percentage despite some turnover issues. That doesn't = bad in PnR.

But according to DX and Synergy Sports nearly 75% of his PnR possessions were as a passer, so if he's scoring out of it at an elite level, then it's on an extremely low volume because UCLA hardly ran PnR as it is and 3/4 of the time he's passing with a high turnover rate.

[reanimator]

To be fair the statistical information does say he turns the ball over at a pretty high rate in PnR scenarios (I'll see if I can find the stats). I think it's something he'll learn fine, but it's not a lie that he wasn't that good in PnR this year.

I've already posted the info....he is in the 88 percentile in PnR at the D1 level, scores out of it at en elite level, and shoots an absurd percentage despite some turnover issues. That doesn't = bad in PnR.

But according to DX and Synergy Sports nearly 75% of his PnR possessions were as a passer, so if he's scoring out of it at an elite level, then it's on an extremely low volume because UCLA hardly ran PnR as it is and 3/4 of the time he's passing with a high turnover rate.

Lonzo is in the high 70s as a passer out of PnR....not great but not abysmal or indicative of no potential playing with ballscreens. No one is saying he is a PnR maestro but there is clearly more there to work with than just being inept and awful.

[darealjuice]

I've already posted the info....he is in the 88 percentile in PnR at the D1 level, scores out of it at en elite level, and shoots an absurd percentage despite some turnover issues. That doesn't = bad in PnR.

But according to DX and Synergy Sports nearly 75% of his PnR possessions were as a passer, so if he's scoring out of it at an elite level, then it's on an extremely low volume because UCLA hardly ran PnR as it is and 3/4 of the time he's passing with a high turnover rate.

Lonzo is in the high 70s as a passer out of PnR....not great but not abysmal or indicative of no potential playing with ballscreens. No one is saying he is a PnR maestro but there is clearly more there to work with than just being inept and awful.

I never said that he was awful though, just that he wasn't that good this year. Like I said originally, I think he'll be just fine at it in the NBA if it's a major part of his team's offense, I just wasn't convinced he's as good at it as some of the other top guards in the class. Lonzo is a very efficient scorer though, he pretty much doesn't shoot unless it's a layup/dunk or a 3-pointer, so I take him passing the ball out of PnR a lot and turning it over more frequently as him not being able to get a shot that he likes. I think his lack of mid-range game, whether it's a pull-up or something quick like a floater, makes him predictable out of PnR because as long as you chase him over the top of the screen so he doesn't have space to shoot and don't get beat with no help at rim you know he's going to pass the ball.

[PLO]

All of a sudden Ball's PnR abilities are a strength? This was thoroughly debunked by Marc Whittington; just shows there are lies, damned lies, and statistics.

[reanimator]

Who said Ball's PnR is a strength? Contesting someone saying "Ball is very bad" in PnR isn't some glowing approval of his PnR ability. That article and many post in here are incredibly hyperbolic IMO.