Jimmy Butler Trade - Why and Ideas

[stilldropin20]

McCollum certainly has a chance to become a top 5-10 player in this league. To say he doesn't is silly. Dude just won the Most Improved Player award. He could definitely be as good as Butler is now. He's still only 25 and just put up 23/4/4 on 48/42/91 on a playoff team... Come on...

Compare the two at 25 after their fourth seasons...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1_hint=Jimmy+Butler&player_id1_select=Jimmy+Butler&y1=2015&player_id1=butleji01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=C.J.+McCollum&player_id2_select=C.J.+McCollum&y2=2017&player_id2=mccolcj01&idx=players

EXACTLY!!!! you give CJ the keys( the way jimmy has had them and the way lillard has had them and he puts up MVP type numbers). there is a ton of upside for CJ. he is a player on the rise. Jimmy looks to me like a player that has peaked and his peak is weak in terms of affecting the bottom line(wins and losses):which is about leadership. jimmy is a questionable leader at best. at worst, a very poor leader. doesn't get much out of lessor talents.

Not sure how you can say Jimmy looks like he's peaked, though. The dude has gotten better literally every single season. Why will that stop right now? I mean, how many people have said, "Jimmy's peaked" after every single season... and then we just find out he hadn't? Definitely premature and truly unknowing to say he's peaked.

eye test.

not seeing any special type of skill set in jimmy. i see joe johnson. solid for sure! but overall, i see a player with limited scoring abilities that uses strength and size to create space. VS a guy with a killer jump shot and killer handles, killer fakes, killer off ball movement, and killer basketball instincts that uses all that to set up defenders the way steph curry does. with basketball skills vs strength and speed. Again, Jimmy looks like Joe Johnson to me. good player no doubt. but a guy who peaked at 27-29 and never got better. in fact worse as that athleticism dwindled.

CJ looks like a steph clone to me.

[rowseyna]

EXACTLY!!!! you give CJ the keys( the way jimmy has had them and the way lillard has had them and he puts up MVP type numbers). there is a ton of upside for CJ. he is a player on the rise. Jimmy looks to me like a player that has peaked and his peak is weak in terms of affecting the bottom line(wins and losses):which is about leadership. jimmy is a questionable leader at best. at worst, a very poor leader. doesn't get much out of lessor talents.

Not sure how you can say Jimmy looks like he's peaked, though. The dude has gotten better literally every single season. Why will that stop right now? I mean, how many people have said, "Jimmy's peaked" after every single season... and then we just find out he hadn't? Definitely premature and truly unknowing to say he's peaked.

eye test.

not seeing any special type of skill set in jimmy. i see joe johnson. solid for sure! but overall, i see a player with limited scoring abilities that uses strength and size to create space. VS a guy with a killer jump shot and killer handles, killer fakes, killer off ball movement, and killer basketball instincts that uses all that to set up defenders the way steph curry does. with basketball skills vs strength and speed. Again, Jimmy looks like Joe Johnson to me. good player no doubt. but a guy who peaked at 27-29 and never got better. in fact worse as that athleticism dwindled.

CJ looks like a steph clone to me.

"Eye test" isn't really applicable here and isn't something you can just use when you're trying to answer an unanswerable question. Your eyes simply cannot tell you that someone won't improve. It's not possible. And if you can't see the special skill-set Jimmy has, then your eye test is garbage, anyway. He's obviously better than Joe Johnson has ever been. Limited scoring abilities?! Dude, please stop. You're being ridiculous. Are you C.J. McCollum's mom?

C.J.'s a Steph clone...?! Wow. Just wow.

[stilldropin20]

McCollum certainly has a chance to become a top 5-10 player in this league. To say he doesn't is silly. Dude just won the Most Improved Player award. He could definitely be as good as Butler is now. He's still only 25 and just put up 23/4/4 on 48/42/91 on a playoff team... Come on...

Compare the two at 25 after their fourth seasons...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1_hint=Jimmy+Butler&player_id1_select=Jimmy+Butler&y1=2015&player_id1=butleji01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=C.J.+McCollum&player_id2_select=C.J.+McCollum&y2=2017&player_id2=mccolcj01&idx=players

EXACTLY!!!! you give CJ the keys( the way jimmy has had them and the way lillard has had them and he puts up MVP type numbers). there is a ton of upside for CJ. he is a player on the rise. Jimmy looks to me like a player that has peaked and his peak is weak in terms of affecting the bottom line(wins and losses):which is about leadership. jimmy is a questionable leader at best. at worst, a very poor leader. doesn't get much out of lessor talents.

How does he not get the most out of lesser talents? As stated, our lesser talents play worse than the 76ers, Lakers, or Nets statistically when he's not on the court, and somehow, Jimmy dragged them to the playoffs. Saying he doesn't get much out of lessor talents completely ignores how terrible those talents perform without Butler vs. how the team performed with Butler.

Meanwhile, McCollum can score for sure, but I'd be curious how one would justify why the Blazers had the same record as the Bulls if he's on Butler's level, given McCollum plays with Lillard and Butler plays with.... ?

west is tougher than the east. at the top and at the middle. 41 wins when playing GS, SA, Utah, clips, thunder, and grizzlies is just waaaaaaaaaaaaay yougher than 4 games against the east top seeds. then even at the middle(bottom): denver, NO, SAC(with boogie), and dallas, even thibs' minn, was waaaaaay tougher than orlando, philly, etc.

portland might have won 48-50 games in the east.

[stilldropin20]

Not sure how you can say Jimmy looks like he's peaked, though. The dude has gotten better literally every single season. Why will that stop right now? I mean, how many people have said, "Jimmy's peaked" after every single season... and then we just find out he hadn't? Definitely premature and truly unknowing to say he's peaked.

eye test.

not seeing any special type of skill set in jimmy. i see joe johnson. solid for sure! but overall, i see a player with limited scoring abilities that uses strength and size to create space. VS a guy with a killer jump shot and killer handles, killer fakes, killer off ball movement, and killer basketball instincts that uses all that to set up defenders the way steph curry does. with basketball skills vs strength and speed. Again, Jimmy looks like Joe Johnson to me. good player no doubt. but a guy who peaked at 27-29 and never got better. in fact worse as that athleticism dwindled.

CJ looks like a steph clone to me.

"Eye test" isn't really applicable here and isn't something you can just use when you're trying to answer an unanswerable question. Your eyes simply cannot tell you that someone won't improve. It's not possible. And if you can't see the special skill-set Jimmy has, then your eye test is garbage, anyway. He's obviously better than Joe Johnson has ever been. Limited scoring abilities?! Dude, please stop. You're being ridiculous. Are you C.J. McCollum's mom?

C.J.'s a Steph clone...?! Wow. Just wow.

oh this is just my opinion. please dont feel like im trying to convinve you or anyone to see it like me. I dont care what anyone thinks of my opinion. imo, jimmy doesn't score at the rim at will(volume and efficiency), nor does he score in the midrange at will(v n E) nor does he score beyond the arc at will(V n E).

the only thing he does in terms of scoring at will (volume and efficiency) is draw fouls. On offense, his foul drawing is basically his entire (elite part) of his game. but im not trying to convince you at all. i'm just putting my thoughts out there. you (and everyone else) are more than free to feel and think completely differently.

[sh0ck]

eye test.

not seeing any special type of skill set in jimmy. i see joe johnson. solid for sure! but overall, i see a player with limited scoring abilities that uses strength and size to create space. VS a guy with a killer jump shot and killer handles, killer fakes, killer off ball movement, and killer basketball instincts that uses all that to set up defenders the way steph curry does. with basketball skills vs strength and speed. Again, Jimmy looks like Joe Johnson to me. good player no doubt. but a guy who peaked at 27-29 and never got better. in fact worse as that athleticism dwindled.

CJ looks like a steph clone to me.

"Eye test" isn't really applicable here and isn't something you can just use when you're trying to answer an unanswerable question. Your eyes simply cannot tell you that someone won't improve. It's not possible. And if you can't see the special skill-set Jimmy has, then your eye test is garbage, anyway. He's obviously better than Joe Johnson has ever been. Limited scoring abilities?! Dude, please stop. You're being ridiculous. Are you C.J. McCollum's mom?

C.J.'s a Steph clone...?! Wow. Just wow.

oh this is just my opinion. please dont feel like im trying to convinve you or anyone to see it like me. I dont care what anyone thinks of my opinion. imo, jimmy doesn't score at the rim at will(volume and efficiency), nor does he score in the midrange at will(v n E) nor does he score beyond the arc at will(V n E).

the only thing he does in terms of scoring at will (volume and efficiency) is draw fouls. On offense, his foul drawing is basically his entire (elite part) of his game. but im not trying to convince you at all. i'm just putting my thoughts out there. you (and everyone else) are more than free to feel and think completely differently.

It's kind of a bad opinion. Joe Johnson and Jimmy Butler game are pretty opposite of each other.

Shot selection -
Jimmy's percentage of shots from 0-3 (at the basket) - career 31.7% of his attempts, shooting 61.2% on those attempts
Joe's percentage of shots from 0-3 (at the basket) - career 15.9% of his attempts, shooting 59% on those attempts

And for all everyone's complaints about Jimmy being an Iso-player...

Jimmy's assisted % for 2p shots - 49.2%
Joe's assisted % for 2p shots - 31.6%

Jimmy's career FTA - 5.6
Joe's career FTA - 2.9 (has never had a season over 5.5)

You know who else is Elite at drawing fouls? James Harden... and he might be this year's MVP.

Jimmy's a much more efficient scorer than you give credit for. It's just that he's not a super flashy player.

Jimmy's also twice the defender Joe Johnson has ever been, and is constantly listed as a top tier wing defender in this league (3 straight years of 2nd Team All Defense).

[musiqsoulchild]

Has to be a big market. And Jimmy's agent and Nike will want him in LA. As also Adam Silver and the Buss family.

Lakers is my best bet.

[bulliedog8]

My biggest reason to trade him is so you dont have to pay him possibly 57 mil when he is 34.

#4 and Chriss
2018 Nets, Brown, and Bradley for Butler
#3, Covington, and Jahlil
#6 and Gordon
Dunn, Lavine, 7

Or else if you plan on keeping him. Use the 30 mil in cap (after renouncing Miro, MCW, Joffrey, etc) and sign Gallo and Jon Simmons. Hope for a Rockets like improvement with a few pieces like that. Draft Jarrett Allen as the future center or Diallo to be a future SG (if you are to trade butler).

Rondo--Grant
Simmons--Wade
Butler--Valentine
Gallo--Zipser
Lopez--Portis

That is a 50 win team in the east if wade valentine rondo butler and Gallo stay healthy (pretty injury prone team similar to the rockets with eric gordon and ryan anderson)

[ATRAIN53]

There's really no reason to trade a guy his age who plays both ends of the floor and has such a good work ethic.

Everyone who says he's not a top 15 player in the NBA
Can I see that list of 14 players who are not named Kawhai that are younger and better defenders than Butler?

and on the trade block?

You have to surround Jimmy with better players if we want to get better. Not replace Jimmy for a bunch of guys you don't know who will be better.

DEFENSE still key to winning championships.

ask Andre Iguadola.....




This is why BOS is playing Jaylen Brown in this series they have no shat at winning and making him guard LeBron. That is how that kid will develop into a solid defender. Thibs did this with Jimmy on Melo and Bron and it paid off.

[Minalt]

Suns gave all those assets but they know they are not ready

Philly has such a good player in Embiid and new management that they might make a trade because excess assets

Minnesota is a team that can definitely garner Butler trade attention

LA will probably not make the trade. They are still not ready and do not have enough bonified young talent

Boston by all reports will not make the trade. BUT they make a LOT of sense on paper.

Atlanta is probably entering rebuild mode. I would be all over 4 first round picks though.


I would hate to pay a 34 year old 57 million dollars. But honestly this is just the beginning of these mega
contracts. This is going to be completely normal for now on in the NBA. Even if we rebuild we are going to have
to pay the new players HUGE contracts. The only reason the Warriors have all of this is because they
signed all the deals before the new CBA and injuries to the players.

[othawhitemeat]

Philly IMO is the best bet. Boston likely thinks they can sign Hayward and will keep the pick.

Jimmy fits in and gives them credibility. They already have Embid, Simmons and Saric to fill out the front line. Jimmy can go back to the 2 and they can sign a pg and make the playoffs.

But I would want the #3 and Lakers pick and probably okafor.

I don't want Okafor as he is lazy and not motivated, but I bet the Bulls do so they have a Chicago native. I would do Jimmy and one of Grant, Portis, Zipser for #3, next year's highest pick (Lakers), and Saric or Timothy Lawawu, or I would do Jimmy to the Suns for one of Bender/Chriss, Ulis (chitown draw), and their pick as long as it is not Ball. I think Ball can be good, but dealing with that dad would not be a good fit with a team trying to build a new identity. However, the Bulls are trading Jimmy if they can get a decent package from Suns or Philly, unless they want to milk Jimmy as an excuse to where they cannot build around him. However, while right now we are middle of road, we could be dynamite if the Bulls are willing to lose one year of playoff revenue and make much more money in the long run by having an elite prime player in Butler to trade before he becomes untradeable and unsignable.

I do the Philly trade and draft Fox. I trade pick 16 and Sac second round pick down to the next two Portland picks and draft Jordan Bell, Diallo/Jeanne/Evans and with the second round pick, draft Josh Hart. Next year, with two great picks, I draft two of Doncic, Porter, Ayton, Bamba and outside looking in, Bridges. Toughness, athletic ability, speed, and skill. I would pay money to get one of Otto Porter, Hardaway Jr. or next year, Avery Bradley if I could. This is all hypothetical and obviously most likely not doable, but could happen:

Fox/ Jawun Evans
Bradley Jr./Grant
Porter J/Valentine
Saric/Bell
Ayton/Felicio

[TheStig]

Philly IMO is the best bet. Boston likely thinks they can sign Hayward and will keep the pick.

Jimmy fits in and gives them credibility. They already have Embid, Simmons and Saric to fill out the front line. Jimmy can go back to the 2 and they can sign a pg and make the playoffs.

But I would want the #3 and Lakers pick and probably okafor.

I don't want Okafor as he is lazy and not motivated, but I bet the Bulls do so they have a Chicago native. I would do Jimmy and one of Grant, Portis, Zipser for #3, next year's highest pick (Lakers), and Saric or Timothy Lawawu, or I would do Jimmy to the Suns for one of Bender/Chriss, Ulis (chitown draw), and their pick as long as it is not Ball. I think Ball can be good, but dealing with that dad would not be a good fit with a team trying to build a new identity. However, the Bulls are trading Jimmy if they can get a decent package from Suns or Philly, unless they want to milk Jimmy as an excuse to where they cannot build around him.

I don't like the Suns talent outside of Booker. I'd rather start fresh with picks. I like your Philly trade but I doubt you'll get them to give up both picks and Saric. Okafor is basically just a throw in. I don't really care if we get him. I want the #3 and Lakers pick.

[ryan44]

Has to be a big market. And Jimmy's agent and Nike will want him in LA. As also Adam Silver and the Buss family.

Lakers is my best bet.

The Paul George situation makes a trade with LA less likely. The Lakers are probably as confident, if not more confident than Boston is regarding Hayward. There's little reason for them to give up a bunch of assets for Butler at this point.

[The Box Office]

There's really no reason to trade a guy his age who plays both ends of the floor and has such a good work ethic.

Everyone who says he's not a top 15 player in the NBA
Can I see that list of 14 players who are not named Kawhai that are younger and better defenders than Butler?

and on the trade block?

You have to surround Jimmy with better players if we want to get better. Not replace Jimmy for a bunch of guys you don't know who will be better.

DEFENSE still key to winning championships.

ask Andre Iguadola.....




This is why BOS is playing Jaylen Brown in this series they have no shat at winning and making him guard LeBron. That is how that kid will develop into a solid defender. Thibs did this with Jimmy on Melo and Bron and it paid off.

Yes there are. That's why we're discussing it. We're imagining that scenario. We're a treadmill team stuck in NBA Hell.

GarPax sucks. Team sucks. Can't build a team around a guy who is not in the top 10 best ranked players. GarPax doesn't know how to build around him. Also, FO's reputation is damaged beyond repair as long as John Paxson is still here.

[gardenofsound]

Boston Option 1: Jaylen Brown or Avery Bradley, Tyler Zeller, 2017 Pick (Fultz)
^I see this as being pretty damn unlikely

Boston Option 2: Tyler Zeller, Jaylen Brown, 2018 BKN Pick, Memphis Pick
^More likely

Minnesota Option 1: Wiggins, #7

Why Minnesota does this: Butler is currently better than Wiggins, and likely gets them into the playoffs next year itself teamed up with an improving Towns, Dieng, and a distributing PG in Rubio. Thibs already knows Butler, and Butler offers a strong vet presence.

Minnesota Option 2: Lavine, Dunn, #7, earliest eligible 1st round pick (Atlanta currently has rights to the MIN the first time MIN makes the playoffs, which means this pick likely ends up being the 2020 pick)

Why?: Dunn didn't really show much to impress last year on offense. He's a project, and in many ways similar to Marcus Smart. Lavine is coming off of ACL surgery--Thibs probably has nightmares about Rose to this day, and would rather just go with the sure fire bet in Butler. Truth be told, with so much of Lavine's game reliant upon athleticism, there's no way to say if he will come back and be very effective. The Bulls have nothing to lose by finding out while he's still on his rookie scale contract. They still get two 1st rounders on top of that.

[ChettheJet]

To me PHI, MINN and PHO have stockpiled young players but need a respected veteran to lead a young team. Most teams don't think that way, they just want to keep drafting upside and hope the team gels.

I think Minnesota is the most realistic but not the best pick or players coming back

I would go with Philadelphia except I don't have any desire for Okafor

I don't think the Lakers have enough players to send back since they're rebuilding

The Hawks might want to trade a boatload of picks but who wants a bunch of picks in the teens and 20s?

Boston has the pick and the players but do they think Jimmy is the piece they are lacking to win it all? I think they're still in the mode of drafting the best players and I don't think they want to gamble the #1 pick and then if they don't win second guess themselves. If they want to really change their roster, sign Hayward and trade for Jimmy maybe they would give up enough or too much for him.

[Lauri_Legend]

Only person I want from Philly is Ben Simmons. Given that won't happen, I'm ok with any option besides D'Angelo Russell

[gardenofsound]

To me PHI, MINN and PHO have stockpiled young players but need a respected veteran to lead a young team. Most teams don't think that way, they just want to keep drafting upside and hope the team gels.

I think Minnesota is the most realistic but not the best pick or players coming back

I would go with Philadelphia except I don't have any desire for Okafor

I don't think the Lakers have enough players to send back since they're rebuilding

The Hawks might want to trade a boatload of picks but who wants a bunch of picks in the teens and 20s?

Boston has the pick and the players but do they think Jimmy is the piece they are lacking to win it all? I think they're still in the mode of drafting the best players and I don't think they want to gamble the #1 pick and then if they don't win second guess themselves. If they want to really change their roster, sign Hayward and trade for Jimmy maybe they would give up enough or too much for him.

If you look at my option two trade with Boston (Zeller, Brown, 2018 BKN Pick, Memphis Pick), the reason Boston does this is because, instead of prioritizing Gordon Hayward, they prioritize Blake Griffin.

Next year's starting lineup for them could be Thomas/Bradley/Butler/Griffin/Horford with Crowder, Smart, and Fultz as key pieces off the bench.

[coldfish]

I would do JB for Sacramento 5 and 10.
I would do it for Philly #3. (or Boston or LA but I don't think those are available)
I would do Phoenix #4 plus a future protected first

The only one I think is realistic is Philly. You might actually be able to screw Bryan Colangelo over as he is going to be under some pressure to deliver results. Jimmy + Simmons + Embiid + filler is a playoff team.

[gardenofsound]

I would do JB for Sacramento 5 and 10.
I would do it for Philly #3. (or Boston or LA but I don't think those are available)
I would do Phoenix #4 plus a future protected first

The only one I think is realistic is Philly. You might actually be able to screw Bryan Colangelo over as he is going to be under some pressure to deliver results. Jimmy + Simmons + Embiid + filler is a playoff team.

I think Philly jumps on that in a heartbeat, but I also think the Bulls can do a bit better than that for Butler.

Philly sends...
Gerald Henderson (purely for salary purposes),
Luwawu,
2017 #3,
2018 LAL 1st,
2018 PHI 1st or the rights to Furkan Korkmaz

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

Butler for #3 plus Saric is my realistic dream deal. I imagine that's a shade too rich for Philly's blood, though.