RealGM Greatest Peaks Project---List, Interest, Metathinking thread

[Pablo Novi]

Sorry I joined RealGM after this discussion ran its course - looks really interesting. (Can someone notify me the next time one of these comes around?)

Perhaps my "forte" is that I got to see the entire careers of every All-Time great from the '60 season (Wilt's first) onwards. Color me "old", lol.

My dad was a huge Mikan fan; and I grew up hearing about the Mikan this and the Mikan that and, especially, the Mikan Drill. What little coverage there was; he tracked it all down. Mikan so revolutionized the game that the signs outside the front of the arenas often mentioned him by name rather than Minneapolis; "Mikan's Lakers". imo, Mikan was THE most era-dominant player ever; but as many have pointed out - the competition level was far inferior to later on. It seems to me that the two "eras" prior to Wilt joining the NBA can be characterized as:

a) Pre-Mikan (including his first partial-year, 1946, with the Chicago Gears), 1938-1946 (NBL) - where I'd guess the level of play was 25% of the Modern Era's.

b) Mikan-Era / Pre-Wilt , 1947-1959 - where I'd guess the level of play was 50% of the Modern Era's. (During the three years of NBL/BAA, whichever League Mikan was in, that was the superior one. He & the top (ex-)NBL teams were that much better than the BAA's first teams ... the top two teams, then 3, then 5 of the top 8 were ex-NBL teams). *

Wilt, imo, was so much better than everybody else that, like Mikan before him, he revolutionized the level of play - forcing all of pro-ball to try to rise to his level. For this reason, I usually treat Wilt as the most era-dominant player ever.

My dad was also a super-tolerant person in a very intolerant era - so I've always had favorite players from any number of teams. Having seen racial-beatings on a regular basis; and having experienced such as the "3-bathroom system" (one "men", one "women" and one abomination "colored"); it changed my entire life to see two bi-racial NBA duos play so well together: the Big "O" and Jerry Lucas; and especially, Jerry West & Elgin Baylor - because they were pretty much equals in ability.

btw, I saw Wilt LIVE with the Harlem Globetrotters a few times in 1959 - he played some point guard and was "unguardable" at that position too. In those days, that team might have been better than some/most of the teams in the NBA.

* My biggest "gripe" with the NBA is their refusal to recognize their rival Leagues: NBL and ABA - they ought to treat them the way the NFL does the AFL - with respect and equality.

[eminence]

Stopped to look at it again today, and was wondering what some people thought of '13 vs '14 Durant. Looking at it again it's a lot closer than I'd originally thought.

[Quotatious]

Stopped to look at it again today, and was wondering what some people thought of '13 vs '14 Durant. Looking at it again it's a lot closer than I'd originally thought.

I think he was roughly on the same level both years. He just had the opportunity to put his scoring ability on full display in '14, with Westbrook out for a large part of that season. But, his efficiency was marginally higher in '13. Similar in the playoffs, too (dominated non-elite defensive teams - Rockets in '13 and Clippers in '14, but kinda struggled against elite defenses - Memphis in '13, Memphis and San Antonio in '14). Regular season rebounding was slightly better in '13, playmaking better in '14, playoff rebounding slightly better in '14, playoff playmaking in '13. I was a bit more impressed with his defense in '13, but I don't think he was a better defender ability-wise, just played with more effort on D, because he had Westbrook for a full season (regular season, that is), to share the offensive load with, while in '14, Russ only played 46 RS games (all 82 in '13).

So, basically equal.

[Statlanta]

Any of you guys feel like '15 Anthony Davis got overrated in the project? I love AD, he's one of my favorite current players, but I don't think he deserved to get in at 29, over Harden or Howard, and if AD is in, I think '15 Westbrook, '14 Love and '06 Brand should've been very close behind him. McHale should've been much closer to him, too.

I think voting for that project was just losing steam due to time commitment much like your descending top 10 players in a year list and the top 10 duos ever list. This has infected fantasy drafts around here as well and I think a lot of players mostly older were underrated when going through the project. I think, like Brandan Wright in the same year, his PER value didn't properly encapsulate his deficiencies well that year.

[Joao Saraiva]

When is this gonna happen again? I've avoided such projects, but now I've been watching as much 60s basketball as I can to be able to vote for next project.

I'm really liking to see Jerry West. Dude was a beast!

[Quotatious]

When is this gonna happen again? I've avoided such projects, but now I've been watching as much 60s basketball as I can to be able to vote for next project.

I'm really liking to see Jerry West. Dude was a beast!

I'm pretty sure we're doing this again this summer. Probably will start after the finals, in late June.

[penbeast0]

This one or top 100 Careers? (They are way too time consuming to do both!) Or maybe, considering some of the discussion, Most Dominant Ever (in era) which doesn't quite duplicate the other discussions.

[Quotatious]

This one or top 100 Careers? (They are way too time consuming to do both!) Or maybe, considering some of the discussion, Most Dominant Ever (in era) which doesn't quite duplicate the other discussions.

Oh, I mean top 100 careers. My bad. Having a really hectic day.

[THKNKG]

This one or top 100 Careers? (They are way too time consuming to do both!) Or maybe, considering some of the discussion, Most Dominant Ever (in era) which doesn't quite duplicate the other discussions.

Oh, I mean top 100 careers. My bad. Having a really hectic day.

Do you mean like the top 100 project that's been done every 3 years?

[Quotatious]

Do you mean like the top 100 project that's been done every 3 years?

Yeah, that's what I mean. As you said, we do it every 3 years, and the last one was in 2014, so...

[Joao Saraiva]

When is this gonna happen again? I've avoided such projects, but now I've been watching as much 60s basketball as I can to be able to vote for next project.

I'm really liking to see Jerry West. Dude was a beast!

I'm pretty sure we're doing this again this summer. Probably will start after the finals, in late June.

Ok gotta a lot of work to do then And that's good at least I got something to be entertained And I meant career wise. Put it in the wrong thread but that's good

[penbeast0]

If I start it, it's going to be MDE . . . Most Dominant in Era . . . just a warning

[pelifan]

If I start it, it's going to be MDE . . . Most Dominant in Era . . . just a warning

looking forward to Mikan top 5 then

[penbeast0]

Looking forward to a discussion that actually respects Mikan . . . though will probably limit it to NBA only so no pre-NBA Mikan unless we include 49 BAA or something (as it was better than NBA that year).

[Blackmill]

Mistakenly thought the "criterion" thread was also the sign up thread.

I would like to participate provided the voting doesn't start until after mid-May. My schedule is still uncertain and I will update this post if it becomes apparent that I can't participate.

[GeneralManager]

Charles Barkley's peak simply must be higher than 24th on this list.

[Pablo Novi]

Looking forward to a discussion that actually respects Mikan . . . though will probably limit it to NBA only so no pre-NBA Mikan unless we include 49 BAA or something (as it was better than NBA that year).

"Inspired" by the apparent-confusion in this post (there was no "NBA" that year; there was still the NBL), I've written a post (Titled: "Pablo's Thoughts On: "NBA" "Era's", & "Decades" & Players Within Them" that I posted to the "upcoming GOAT metathinking" thread.
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1328924&p=55731500#p55731500
My post there is #662.

That post MAY have a number of points that would be relevant to THIS discussion here.

Let me just copy-paste the first section of THAT post, the section on Mikan's career:

"A. MIKAN'S CAREER:
Mikan's first "year" was the last part of the '46 season, playing for the Chicago Gears of the NBL - they won the NBL Chip that year. From the next year onwards, he played for the Minneapolis Lakers - they won the NBL Chip in 1947 and 1948. They then switched to the BAA and won the BAA Chip in 1949; and continued winning Chips in the NBA from 1950 onwards.

Mikan's Play-Off Record:
1. 1947 NBL Chicago Gears ..... - Chip N.B. LATE EDIT: It was 1947 not 1946 and it was the Chicago American Gears
2. 1948 NBL Minneapolis Lakers - Chip
3. 1949 BAA Minneapolis Lakers - Chip
4. 1950 NBA Minneapolis Lakers - Chip
5. 1951 NBA Minneapolis Lakers - Lost in the round before the Finals to the Finals winner (Rochester Royals)
6. 1952 NBA Minneapolis Lakers - Chip N.B. LATE EDIT: I had the results of 1951 and 1952 reversed; now they're corrected)
7. 1953 NBA Minneapolis Lakers - Chip
8. 1954 NBA Minneapolis Lakers - Chip

In other words his teams won 7 Chips in 8 years; and he was probably the (unofficial) MVP of all of those years except the first - due to him joining the League after the half-way mark of that season. In other words, he utterly dominated that almost-decade.

LATE EDIT: Based on having added a non-existent year in Mikan's NBL career (1946); I've now removed that extra year and changed "8 Chips in 9 years" TO "7 Chips in 8 years".

I'd claim that since the 1938 season (in other words over the last 70 years) no player was even close to as Era-dominant as he was.
My strong suggestion would be to INCLUDE his entire career (if not the entirety of the NBL) in the coming discussion."

[penbeast0]

Looking forward to a discussion that actually respects Mikan . . . though will probably limit it to NBA only so no pre-NBA Mikan unless we include 49 BAA or something (as it was better than NBA that year).

"Inspired" by the apparent-confusion in this post (there was no "NBA" that year; there was still the NBL), I've written a post (Titled: "Pablo's Thoughts On: "NBA" "Era's", & "Decades" & Players Within Them" that I posted to the "upcoming GOAT metathinking" thread.
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1328924&p=55731500#p55731500
My post there is #662.

That post MAY have a number of points that would be relevant to THIS discussion here.

Let me just copy-paste the first section of THAT post, the section on Mikan's career:

"A. MIKAN'S CAREER:
Mikan's first "year" was the last part of the '46 season, playing for the Chicago Gears of the NBL - they won the NBL Chip that year. From the next year onwards, he played for the Minneapolis Lakers - they won the NBL Chip in 1947 and 1948. They then switched to the BAA and won the BAA Chip in 1949; and continued winning Chips in the NBA from 1950 onwards.

Mikan's Play-Off Record:
1. 1946 NBL Chicago Gears ..... - Chip
2. 1947 NBL Minneapolis Lakers - Chip
3. 1948 NBL Minneapolis Lakers - Chip
4. 1949 BAA Minneapolis Lakers - Chip
5. 1950 NBA Minneapolis Lakers - Chip
6. 1951 NBA Minneapolis Lakers - Chip
7. 1952 NBA Minneapolis Lakers - Lost in the round before the Finals to the Finals winner (Rochester Royals)
8. 1953 NBA Minneapolis Lakers - Chip
9. 1954 NBA Minneapolis Lakers - Chip

In other words his teams won 8 Chips in 9 years; and he was probably the (unofficial) MVP of all of those years except the first - due to him joining the League after the half-way mark of that season. In other words, he utterly dominated that almost-decade.

I'd claim that since the 1938 season (in other words over the last 70 years) no player was even close to as Era-dominant as he was.
My strong suggestion would be to INCLUDE his entire career (if not the entirety of the NBL) in the coming discussion."

Do we have league stats available for any of those years before 49 when B-R.com starts posting them? And, if so, how much information do they have? If there aren't good numbers for the competition as well as Mikan so we can see at least how statistically dominant he was (team winning margin, etc.), then we are just going off anecdotal evidence which is pretty weak. (Oh, and from what I can find, you added an extra year; he is listed everywhere I can find as having 7 titles in 8 years, 7/9 if you count his attempt to make a comeback in 1956).

[eminence]

Looking forward to a discussion that actually respects Mikan . . . though will probably limit it to NBA only so no pre-NBA Mikan unless we include 49 BAA or something (as it was better than NBA that year).

"Inspired" by the apparent-confusion in this post (there was no "NBA" that year; there was still the NBL), I've written a post (Titled: "Pablo's Thoughts On: "NBA" "Era's", & "Decades" & Players Within Them" that I posted to the "upcoming GOAT metathinking" thread.
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1328924&p=55731500#p55731500
My post there is #662.

That post MAY have a number of points that would be relevant to THIS discussion here.

Let me just copy-paste the first section of THAT post, the section on Mikan's career:

"A. MIKAN'S CAREER:
Mikan's first "year" was the last part of the '46 season, playing for the Chicago Gears of the NBL - they won the NBL Chip that year. From the next year onwards, he played for the Minneapolis Lakers - they won the NBL Chip in 1947 and 1948. They then switched to the BAA and won the BAA Chip in 1949; and continued winning Chips in the NBA from 1950 onwards.

Mikan's Play-Off Record:
1. 1946 NBL Chicago Gears ..... - Chip
2. 1947 NBL Minneapolis Lakers - Chip
3. 1948 NBL Minneapolis Lakers - Chip
4. 1949 BAA Minneapolis Lakers - Chip
5. 1950 NBA Minneapolis Lakers - Chip
6. 1951 NBA Minneapolis Lakers - Chip
7. 1952 NBA Minneapolis Lakers - Lost in the round before the Finals to the Finals winner (Rochester Royals)
8. 1953 NBA Minneapolis Lakers - Chip
9. 1954 NBA Minneapolis Lakers - Chip

In other words his teams won 8 Chips in 9 years; and he was probably the (unofficial) MVP of all of those years except the first - due to him joining the League after the half-way mark of that season. In other words, he utterly dominated that almost-decade.

I'd claim that since the 1938 season (in other words over the last 70 years) no player was even close to as Era-dominant as he was.
My strong suggestion would be to INCLUDE his entire career (if not the entirety of the NBL) in the coming discussion."

Do we have league stats available for any of those years before 49 when B-R.com starts posting them? And, if so, how much information do they have? If there aren't good numbers for the competition as well as Mikan so we can see at least how statistically dominant he was (team winning margin, etc.), then we are just going off anecdotal evidence which is pretty weak. (Oh, and from what I can find, you added an extra year; he is listed everywhere I can find as having 7 titles in 8 years, 7/9 if you count his attempt to make a comeback in 1956).

In '46 he could be talking about the World Basketball Tournament, though the Gears finished 3rd I believe, Mikan was MVP of the tournament. Actually, nevermind, that doesn't make sense, the Gears still went on to win the NBL title the next year. Must be an extra Lakers title in there somewhere (I think they only won one NBL title).

And actually BR has some of them: http://www.basketball-reference.com/nbl/seasons/

Another decent resource I found for NBL stuff: http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBL/index.html

[Pablo Novi]

"Inspired" by the apparent-confusion in this post (there was no "NBA" that year; there was still the NBL), I've written a post (Titled: "Pablo's Thoughts On: "NBA" "Era's", & "Decades" & Players Within Them" that I posted to the "upcoming GOAT metathinking" thread.
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1328924&p=55731500#p55731500
My post there is #662.

That post MAY have a number of points that would be relevant to THIS discussion here.

Let me just copy-paste the first section of THAT post, the section on Mikan's career:

"A. MIKAN'S CAREER:
Mikan's first "year" was the last part of the '46 season, playing for the Chicago Gears of the NBL - they won the NBL Chip that year. From the next year onwards, he played for the Minneapolis Lakers - they won the NBL Chip in 1947 and 1948. They then switched to the BAA and won the BAA Chip in 1949; and continued winning Chips in the NBA from 1950 onwards.

Mikan's Play-Off Record:
1. 1946 NBL Chicago Gears ..... - Chip
2. 1947 NBL Minneapolis Lakers - Chip
3. 1948 NBL Minneapolis Lakers - Chip
4. 1949 BAA Minneapolis Lakers - Chip
5. 1950 NBA Minneapolis Lakers - Chip
6. 1951 NBA Minneapolis Lakers - Chip
7. 1952 NBA Minneapolis Lakers - Lost in the round before the Finals to the Finals winner (Rochester Royals)
8. 1953 NBA Minneapolis Lakers - Chip
9. 1954 NBA Minneapolis Lakers - Chip

In other words his teams won 8 Chips in 9 years; and he was probably the (unofficial) MVP of all of those years except the first - due to him joining the League after the half-way mark of that season. In other words, he utterly dominated that almost-decade.

I'd claim that since the 1938 season (in other words over the last 70 years) no player was even close to as Era-dominant as he was.
My strong suggestion would be to INCLUDE his entire career (if not the entirety of the NBL) in the coming discussion."

Do we have league stats available for any of those years before 49 when B-R.com starts posting them? And, if so, how much information do they have? If there aren't good numbers for the competition as well as Mikan so we can see at least how statistically dominant he was (team winning margin, etc.), then we are just going off anecdotal evidence which is pretty weak. (Oh, and from what I can find, you added an extra year; he is listed everywhere I can find as having 7 titles in 8 years, 7/9 if you count his attempt to make a comeback in 1956).

In '46 he could be talking about the World Basketball Tournament, though the Gears finished 3rd I believe, Mikan was MVP of the tournament. Actually, nevermind, that doesn't make sense, the Gears still went on to win the NBL title the next year. Must be an extra Lakers title in there somewhere (I think they only won one NBL title).

And actually BR has some of them: http://www.basketball-reference.com/nbl/seasons/

Another decent resource I found for NBL stuff: http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBL/index.html

Gee, pretty darned sloppy on my part. I looked at the Finals results several times and still managed to screw up three times:
1. It was not Chicago Gears but Chicago American Gears;

2. There was no Mikan - Chicago American Gears title in 46;
and
3. It was 1951 rather than 1952 when he/they lost to the Rochester Royals.

So he was 7 titles in 8 years, (not 8 in 9 years). Still incredibly dominant.

I apologize for the mistakes.

About the stats from those years, B-R does have them. For example, here's the Chicago American Gears 1947 seasons stats:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/nbl/teams/CAG/1947.html

N.B. To avoid confusion, I've gone ahead and edited my original post to include the three corrections. Thanx to those who pointed them out!