Moderators: HomoSapien, Payt10, Ice Man, AshyLarrysDiaper, Tommy Udo 6 , coldfish, kulaz3000, fleet, DASMACKDOWN, GimmeDat, Michael Jackson, RedBulls23
GimmeDat wrote:G Buckets wrote:If Philly offers #3, 2018 LAL pick, Saric. That's a deal truly worth considering.
Could walk away with Jackson(#3), Mitchell/Patton(#16)
2018: two top 5 picks. Doncic/Porter/Bamba are the top 3 prospects.
If 3 and the LA pick are on the table, you just take that happily, I think. Expecting Saric on top of that is a bit optimistic.
RedBulls83 wrote:GimmeDat wrote:G Buckets wrote:If Philly offers #3, 2018 LAL pick, Saric. That's a deal truly worth considering.
Could walk away with Jackson(#3), Mitchell/Patton(#16)
2018: two top 5 picks. Doncic/Porter/Bamba are the top 3 prospects.
If 3 and the LA pick are on the table, you just take that happily, I think. Expecting Saric on top of that is a bit optimistic.
I'd do Saric and the 3rd pick. I think that's something I would be comfortable with.
RedBulls83 wrote:GimmeDat wrote:G Buckets wrote:If Philly offers #3, 2018 LAL pick, Saric. That's a deal truly worth considering.
Could walk away with Jackson(#3), Mitchell/Patton(#16)
2018: two top 5 picks. Doncic/Porter/Bamba are the top 3 prospects.
If 3 and the LA pick are on the table, you just take that happily, I think. Expecting Saric on top of that is a bit optimistic.
I'd do Saric and the 3rd pick. I think that's something I would be comfortable with.
RedBulls83 wrote:GimmeDat wrote:G Buckets wrote:If Philly offers #3, 2018 LAL pick, Saric. That's a deal truly worth considering.
Could walk away with Jackson(#3), Mitchell/Patton(#16)
2018: two top 5 picks. Doncic/Porter/Bamba are the top 3 prospects.
If 3 and the LA pick are on the table, you just take that happily, I think. Expecting Saric on top of that is a bit optimistic.
I'd do Saric and the 3rd pick. I think that's something I would be comfortable with.
gardenofsound wrote:Ice Man wrote:Bandit King wrote:Trade him to philly for saric and the 3rd pick!
If those guys turn out well, we could be a .500 team by 2020. Should that excite me?
Forgive me if you've said in another post, but are you against blowing the team up, or is it the particular return mentioned in Bandit King's post that you're not a fan of?
We're a .500 team now, and likely to be one again next year if no changes. The 2018 offseason doesn't promise much, if anything, and the 2019 offseason will be when Butler gets paid or walks away... with not much else to look forward to on the horizon. Should that excite you?
The 2008-2009 and 2009-2010 Bulls were both .500 teams, but at least there was a clear direction they were going in with a group of young players in Noah, Rose, Gibson, Deng, etc growing into a really solid core. That core delivered two straight 1 seeds starting the following season and took the team to the Eastern Conference Finals. The 2012 team is still a "who knows" year, but at least there was hope that they could actually win it all.
Right now, not one single player is showing the type of promise the aforementioned four were showing by the 2009-2010 season.
I'd be more excited about building a core of players that can take the team well beyond where they are now given 4-6 years of drafting and development. If nothing else, those Baby Bulls teams were exciting to watch, particularly once Ben Wallace was traded away.
othawhitemeat wrote:RedBulls83 wrote:GimmeDat wrote:
If 3 and the LA pick are on the table, you just take that happily, I think. Expecting Saric on top of that is a bit optimistic.
I'd do Saric and the 3rd pick. I think that's something I would be comfortable with.
I would too if they throw in a filler in addition to the highest 2nd round pick this year. Maybe Lawawu or Korkmaz from last year? Or if we threw extra players, would they throw in LA pick?
Something like
Butler/Zipser or Grant for this year's pick and next year's pick; no Saric.
Either way, definitely agree that asking for la pick and sixers pick is unlikely. But if we can get Saric, this year's pick, and Lawawu would be great
Fox
Lawawu
our pick (Jackson?)
Saric/trade our 2nd rounder and their second rounder to move up to draft Jordan Bell
Whatever - Felicio
We tank hard, get a high pick next year and we start it off right along with Gar's favorite word, flexibility in cap space.
Next year, draft Porter, Bamba, or Ayton
Fox/whatever
Lawawu/Valentine
Justin Jackson
Saric/Jordan Bell
Bamba
The biggest thing is to get players that play hard. Many teams that tank, tank for the talent and keep collecting talent, but the ones that struggle don't draft players that have the "it" factor in leading too. They have talented players that don't mesh well. Fox can be that starting point, Justin Jackson is a hard working, does not need the ball in his hands type player that can be a 2 way player, Saric is feisty and could be a tough, rebounding, floor spacing 4, etc... Take some flyers on some young talent by outspending and if you can land a Hardaway/Porter, try. Or spend a little more on Exum and let him develop to see if he can be something.
rowseyna wrote:I think #3 and Saric from Philly for JB would be pretty good.
Rondo/Payne/MCW
Grant/Valentine/Canaan
Jackson/Zipser/Morrow
Saric/Portis/Motley
Lopez/Patton/Felicio
rowseyna wrote:gardenofsound wrote:Ice Man wrote:
If those guys turn out well, we could be a .500 team by 2020. Should that excite me?
Forgive me if you've said in another post, but are you against blowing the team up, or is it the particular return mentioned in Bandit King's post that you're not a fan of?
We're a .500 team now, and likely to be one again next year if no changes. The 2018 offseason doesn't promise much, if anything, and the 2019 offseason will be when Butler gets paid or walks away... with not much else to look forward to on the horizon. Should that excite you?
The 2008-2009 and 2009-2010 Bulls were both .500 teams, but at least there was a clear direction they were going in with a group of young players in Noah, Rose, Gibson, Deng, etc growing into a really solid core. That core delivered two straight 1 seeds starting the following season and took the team to the Eastern Conference Finals. The 2012 team is still a "who knows" year, but at least there was hope that they could actually win it all.
Right now, not one single player is showing the type of promise the aforementioned four were showing by the 2009-2010 season.
I'd be more excited about building a core of players that can take the team well beyond where they are now given 4-6 years of drafting and development. If nothing else, those Baby Bulls teams were exciting to watch, particularly once Ben Wallace was traded away.
I decided to do a number of comparisons between 2009-10 Noah, Rose, Gibson, and Deng and the current group of 25 and younger players (Niko, Zipser, MCW, Valentine, Grant, Felicio, Portis, Canaan, Payne, and Lauvergne). I looked at some major grouping of stats and ranked all 14 players (the four from the past and the 10 current guys). Here are the results:
FG% - Felicio, Noah, Gibson, Rose, Portis, Deng, Grant, Niko, Lauvergne, Zipser, MCW, Canaan, Valentine, Payne
3P% - Deng, Grant, Valentine, Niko, Portis, Zipser, Payne, Lauvergne, Rose, Canaan, MCW (I left out Felicio, Gibson, and Noah.)
eFG% - Felicio, Portis, Niko, Grant, Noah, Rose, Gibson, Deng, Valentine, Zipser, Canaan, Lauvergne, Payne, MCW
FTAP36 - Deng, Rose, Noah, MCW, Felicio, Gibson, Niko, Grant, Lauvergne, Portis, Canaan, Zipser, Payne, Valentine
FT% - Canaan, Grant, Valentine, Zipser, Niko, Rose, Deng, MCW, Noah, Portis, Gibson, Felicio, Lauvergne, Payne
RP36 - Noah, Felicio, Portis, Lauvergne, Gibson, Niko, Deng, MCW, Valentine, Zipser, Payne, Grant, Rose, Canaan
AP36 - Rose, MCW, Grant, Payne, Lauvergne, Noah, Valentine, Canaan, Deng, Niko, Zipser, Felicio, Portis, Gibson
SP36 - MCW, Grant, Canaan, Valentine, Niko, Payne, Lauvergne, Felicio, Deng, Gibson, Rose, Zipser, Portis, Noah
BP36 - Noah, Gibson, Niko, MCW, Deng, Zipser, Felicio, Portis, Grant, Valentine, Rose, Canaan, Payne, Lauvergne
TOVP36 - Felicio, Canaan, Portis, Grant, Zipser, Niko, Valentine, Deng, Gibson, Noah, Lauvergne, Rose, MCW, Payne
PFP36 - Rose, Lauvergne, Deng, Canaan, Niko, Valentine, Zipser, Grant, Portis, Payne, Noah, Felicio, MCW, Gibson
PP36 - Rose, Deng, Niko, Portis, Payne, Lauvergne, Grant, Noah, MCW, Gibson, Canaan, Felicio, Valentine, Zipser
ORtg - Felicio, Grant, Noah, Portis, Niko, Rose, Deng, Gibson, Canaan, Zipser, Valentine, Lauvergne, MCW, Payne
DRtg - Noah, Gibson, MCW, Niko, Deng, Lauvergne, Portis, Felicio, Valentine, Grant, Zipser, Rose, Payne, Canaan
PER - Rose, Noah, Deng, Felicio, Portis, Niko, Gibson, Grant, Lauvergne, MCW, Canaan, Valentine, Zipser, Payne
TS% - Felicio, Noah, Grant, Niko, Portis, Rose, Deng, Gibson, Zipser, Valentine, Canaan, Lauvergne, MCW, Payne
WS/48 - Felicio, Noah, Grant, Portis, Niko, Deng, Gibson, Rose, Canaan, Valentine, Zipser, Lauvergne, MCW, Payne
BPM - Noah, Rose, Niko, Deng, Felicio, Grant, Gibson, MCW, Valentine, Portis, Canaan, Zipser, Lauvergne, Payne
VORP - Noah, Rose, Deng, Niko, Gibson, Felicio, Grant, MCW, Lauvergne, Valentine, Canaan, Payne, Portis, Zipser
If you take all of that data and assign points to it so that whoever led each category gets 1 point, second place gets 2, all the way down to whoever came in last getting 14 points, and then add up all the points for all that data, here's how the players rank (lower score is better):
Noah - 94
Niko - 96
Deng - 101
Grant - 107
Felicio - 111
Rose - 113
Portis - 132
Gibson - 147
MCW - 166
Valentine - 169
Lauvergne - 173
Canaan - 175
Zipser - 187
Payne - 219
So obviously, this is an inexact science, but I found it interesting nonetheless. Keep in mind the sample size is very small for Payne (11 games), Lauvergne (20 games), and Canaan (39 games).
I think this shows that we have a group of young players so large that a few of them could definitely still develop into a pretty solid core. Saying that not a single player is showing even close to the promise of Rose, Noah, Deng, and Gibson back in 2009-10 is pretty false, in my opinion. Those four are better than most of our young players, but there are a couple who are showing decent amounts of promise and potential, relatively speaking.
I think we're on the right track but I think we need to trade Jimmy and add to this core. If just a couple of these guys develop into a core pieces and we add another young core piece or two from a Jimmy trade, plus all the FA cap money we'd free up by losing him and probably D-Wade, I think we'd be setting ourselves up quite nicely.
rowseyna wrote:Which trade would y'all prefer for JB?
Lakers - Russell/#2, Ingram/Randle, #28, and Deng
or
76ers - #3 and Saric
R3AL1TY wrote:rowseyna wrote:Which trade would y'all prefer for JB?
Lakers - Russell/#2, Ingram/Randle, #28, and Deng
or
76ers - #3 and Saric
The 76ers' deal is more down to earth, but it may depend on them not seeing Josh Jackson and Tatum as good as Butler during the years of their rookie contract and them wanting 3 pt shooting, which Tatum and Saric may have over Jimmy.
rowseyna wrote:I think #3 and Saric from Philly for JB would be pretty good.
Rondo/Payne/MCW
Grant/Valentine/Canaan
Jackson/Zipser/Morrow
Saric/Portis/Motley
Lopez/Patton/Felicio
R3AL1TY wrote:rowseyna wrote:Which trade would y'all prefer for JB?
Lakers - Russell/#2, Ingram/Randle, #28, and Deng
or
76ers - #3 and Saric
The 76ers' deal is more down to earth, but it may depend on them not seeing Josh Jackson and Tatum as good as Butler during the years of their rookie contract and them wanting 3 pt shooting, which Tatum and Saric may have over Jimmy.
rowseyna wrote:I think #3 and Saric from Philly for JB would be pretty good.
Rondo/Payne/MCW
Grant/Valentine/Canaan
Jackson/Zipser/Morrow
Saric/Portis/Motley
Lopez/Patton/Felicio
sco wrote:rowseyna wrote:gardenofsound wrote:
Forgive me if you've said in another post, but are you against blowing the team up, or is it the particular return mentioned in Bandit King's post that you're not a fan of?
We're a .500 team now, and likely to be one again next year if no changes. The 2018 offseason doesn't promise much, if anything, and the 2019 offseason will be when Butler gets paid or walks away... with not much else to look forward to on the horizon. Should that excite you?
The 2008-2009 and 2009-2010 Bulls were both .500 teams, but at least there was a clear direction they were going in with a group of young players in Noah, Rose, Gibson, Deng, etc growing into a really solid core. That core delivered two straight 1 seeds starting the following season and took the team to the Eastern Conference Finals. The 2012 team is still a "who knows" year, but at least there was hope that they could actually win it all.
Right now, not one single player is showing the type of promise the aforementioned four were showing by the 2009-2010 season.
I'd be more excited about building a core of players that can take the team well beyond where they are now given 4-6 years of drafting and development. If nothing else, those Baby Bulls teams were exciting to watch, particularly once Ben Wallace was traded away.
I decided to do a number of comparisons between 2009-10 Noah, Rose, Gibson, and Deng and the current group of 25 and younger players (Niko, Zipser, MCW, Valentine, Grant, Felicio, Portis, Canaan, Payne, and Lauvergne). I looked at some major grouping of stats and ranked all 14 players (the four from the past and the 10 current guys). Here are the results:
FG% - Felicio, Noah, Gibson, Rose, Portis, Deng, Grant, Niko, Lauvergne, Zipser, MCW, Canaan, Valentine, Payne
3P% - Deng, Grant, Valentine, Niko, Portis, Zipser, Payne, Lauvergne, Rose, Canaan, MCW (I left out Felicio, Gibson, and Noah.)
eFG% - Felicio, Portis, Niko, Grant, Noah, Rose, Gibson, Deng, Valentine, Zipser, Canaan, Lauvergne, Payne, MCW
FTAP36 - Deng, Rose, Noah, MCW, Felicio, Gibson, Niko, Grant, Lauvergne, Portis, Canaan, Zipser, Payne, Valentine
FT% - Canaan, Grant, Valentine, Zipser, Niko, Rose, Deng, MCW, Noah, Portis, Gibson, Felicio, Lauvergne, Payne
RP36 - Noah, Felicio, Portis, Lauvergne, Gibson, Niko, Deng, MCW, Valentine, Zipser, Payne, Grant, Rose, Canaan
AP36 - Rose, MCW, Grant, Payne, Lauvergne, Noah, Valentine, Canaan, Deng, Niko, Zipser, Felicio, Portis, Gibson
SP36 - MCW, Grant, Canaan, Valentine, Niko, Payne, Lauvergne, Felicio, Deng, Gibson, Rose, Zipser, Portis, Noah
BP36 - Noah, Gibson, Niko, MCW, Deng, Zipser, Felicio, Portis, Grant, Valentine, Rose, Canaan, Payne, Lauvergne
TOVP36 - Felicio, Canaan, Portis, Grant, Zipser, Niko, Valentine, Deng, Gibson, Noah, Lauvergne, Rose, MCW, Payne
PFP36 - Rose, Lauvergne, Deng, Canaan, Niko, Valentine, Zipser, Grant, Portis, Payne, Noah, Felicio, MCW, Gibson
PP36 - Rose, Deng, Niko, Portis, Payne, Lauvergne, Grant, Noah, MCW, Gibson, Canaan, Felicio, Valentine, Zipser
ORtg - Felicio, Grant, Noah, Portis, Niko, Rose, Deng, Gibson, Canaan, Zipser, Valentine, Lauvergne, MCW, Payne
DRtg - Noah, Gibson, MCW, Niko, Deng, Lauvergne, Portis, Felicio, Valentine, Grant, Zipser, Rose, Payne, Canaan
PER - Rose, Noah, Deng, Felicio, Portis, Niko, Gibson, Grant, Lauvergne, MCW, Canaan, Valentine, Zipser, Payne
TS% - Felicio, Noah, Grant, Niko, Portis, Rose, Deng, Gibson, Zipser, Valentine, Canaan, Lauvergne, MCW, Payne
WS/48 - Felicio, Noah, Grant, Portis, Niko, Deng, Gibson, Rose, Canaan, Valentine, Zipser, Lauvergne, MCW, Payne
BPM - Noah, Rose, Niko, Deng, Felicio, Grant, Gibson, MCW, Valentine, Portis, Canaan, Zipser, Lauvergne, Payne
VORP - Noah, Rose, Deng, Niko, Gibson, Felicio, Grant, MCW, Lauvergne, Valentine, Canaan, Payne, Portis, Zipser
If you take all of that data and assign points to it so that whoever led each category gets 1 point, second place gets 2, all the way down to whoever came in last getting 14 points, and then add up all the points for all that data, here's how the players rank (lower score is better):
Noah - 94
Niko - 96
Deng - 101
Grant - 107
Felicio - 111
Rose - 113
Portis - 132
Gibson - 147
MCW - 166
Valentine - 169
Lauvergne - 173
Canaan - 175
Zipser - 187
Payne - 219
So obviously, this is an inexact science, but I found it interesting nonetheless. Keep in mind the sample size is very small for Payne (11 games), Lauvergne (20 games), and Canaan (39 games).
I think this shows that we have a group of young players so large that a few of them could definitely still develop into a pretty solid core. Saying that not a single player is showing even close to the promise of Rose, Noah, Deng, and Gibson back in 2009-10 is pretty false, in my opinion. Those four are better than most of our young players, but there are a couple who are showing decent amounts of promise and potential, relatively speaking.
I think we're on the right track but I think we need to trade Jimmy and add to this core. If just a couple of these guys develop into a core pieces and we add another young core piece or two from a Jimmy trade, plus all the FA cap money we'd free up by losing him and probably D-Wade, I think we'd be setting ourselves up quite nicely.
Wow that's a lot of work. I think the challenge for drawing conclusions is the Bulls-only sample set. The difference between two consecutive players on any one of those lists may be 1 person or 300 people on an all NBA sample set. So say the #1 guy in a category is great, the second guy may actually be really bad at that statistic compared to others.
Minalt wrote:bad knees wrote:gardenofsound wrote:From the Trades & Transactions board... viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1566533
As a Bulls fan, I want something a bit different.
POR Out: CJ, #15, 2022 1st (unprotected)
POR In: Jimmy Butler
PHI Out: Henderson, Bayless, #3, 2018 LAL 1st
PHI In: CJ
CHI Out: Butler
CHI In: #3, #15, 2018 LAL 1st, 2022 POR 1st, Bayless and Henderson (pure salary match filler)
Comes from the same place as the deal quoted, but the Bulls don't really want Okafor and would rather have the Lakers' 2018 pick. Bulls ask for Saric, then Luwawu (if denied on Saric), but eventually would settle if neither gets included.
Bulls ask for 2022 1st from Portland, because that's the first year after Lillard hits UFA, and he may not be a Blazer in the 2021-2022 season, so that pick could be more valuable then. Portland accepts that because they bank on being a pretty good team by then. It's a gamble on both sides.
Bulls shoot for Ike and OG with 15 and 16. #3 is dependent on whether Ball gets picked by LA, but assuming he is, I'm really not sure who the Bulls pick in that slot. Tatum, Fox, and Jackson all have serious upside but also have their flaws.
I am not interested in POR's 2022 pick. That's five years away! Also agree that Bulls have no interest in Okafor. I suggest:
POR sends CJ, 15, 20 and 26 for Jimmy and Cam Payne
PHI sends 3, 2019 Sacto 1st, 36, 39, Nets 2d round pick 2018, Sacto 2d round pick 2019 for CJ
CHI sends Butler and Payne for 3, 15, 20, 26, 36, 39, 2018 LAL 1st, Nets 2d round pick 2018, Sacto 2d round pick 2019
PHI has a slew of second round picks so they can easily add a bunch to this deal, especially because it allows them to keep Saric and the LAL 2018 1st.
Bulls take:
3: Fox
Trade 15 and Grant for right to take Mitchell at 12
Trade 16 and 26 for right to take OG at 13
20: Jeanne
36: Frank Jackson
38: Ojeyele
39: Bolden
You guys these types of trades just don't happen lol. Only trades like these are the early 90s Dallas Cowboys and never again. Why? Because teams learned it was stupid to trade all those picks.
The first few ones were more likely where it was just 3, 15, 20. With CJ going to 76ers. But even that one is a no go because CJ isn't worth the #3 pick to the 76ers.
More likely? Butler to Portland for 15, 20, 26, 2018 pick, and Allen Crabbe and filler to match salaries. Or cutoff a pick and add Nurkic into the deal. Then some of these picks are packaged for the Bulls to move up in the draft.
That is the type of trade you will see. None of these crazy 3 way trades with LAL picks, #3 picks, CJ going places, all this stuff. Teams do NOT want to stagnate.
Above trade gets the Bulls a **** load of picks decent young guy on a matching salary contract. Portland gets Jimmy B to match with Lillard and McCollum
bad knees wrote:Minalt wrote:bad knees wrote:
I am not interested in POR's 2022 pick. That's five years away! Also agree that Bulls have no interest in Okafor. I suggest:
POR sends CJ, 15, 20 and 26 for Jimmy and Cam Payne
PHI sends 3, 2019 Sacto 1st, 36, 39, Nets 2d round pick 2018, Sacto 2d round pick 2019 for CJ
CHI sends Butler and Payne for 3, 15, 20, 26, 36, 39, 2018 LAL 1st, Nets 2d round pick 2018, Sacto 2d round pick 2019
PHI has a slew of second round picks so they can easily add a bunch to this deal, especially because it allows them to keep Saric and the LAL 2018 1st.
Bulls take:
3: Fox
Trade 15 and Grant for right to take Mitchell at 12
Trade 16 and 26 for right to take OG at 13
20: Jeanne
36: Frank Jackson
38: Ojeyele
39: Bolden
You guys these types of trades just don't happen lol. Only trades like these are the early 90s Dallas Cowboys and never again. Why? Because teams learned it was stupid to trade all those picks.
The first few ones were more likely where it was just 3, 15, 20. With CJ going to 76ers. But even that one is a no go because CJ isn't worth the #3 pick to the 76ers.
More likely? Butler to Portland for 15, 20, 26, 2018 pick, and Allen Crabbe and filler to match salaries. Or cutoff a pick and add Nurkic into the deal. Then some of these picks are packaged for the Bulls to move up in the draft.
That is the type of trade you will see. None of these crazy 3 way trades with LAL picks, #3 picks, CJ going places, all this stuff. Teams do NOT want to stagnate.
Above trade gets the Bulls a **** load of picks decent young guy on a matching salary contract. Portland gets Jimmy B to match with Lillard and McCollum
ATL offered four 1st round picks for PG and were rightfully turned down. JB is worth significantly more - a better player and a one year longer contract. Your proposed deal with POR would be a disaster.
My deal would be an precedented number of picks, but keep in mind that PHI has a massive treasure trove of picks - this deal barely dents their stash. And Portland also is in an unusual situation with three first round picks and a need/desire to consolidate.
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gardenofsound wrote:sco wrote:rowseyna wrote:
I decided to do a number of comparisons between 2009-10 Noah, Rose, Gibson, and Deng and the current group of 25 and younger players (Niko, Zipser, MCW, Valentine, Grant, Felicio, Portis, Canaan, Payne, and Lauvergne). I looked at some major grouping of stats and ranked all 14 players (the four from the past and the 10 current guys). Here are the results:
FG% - Felicio, Noah, Gibson, Rose, Portis, Deng, Grant, Niko, Lauvergne, Zipser, MCW, Canaan, Valentine, Payne
3P% - Deng, Grant, Valentine, Niko, Portis, Zipser, Payne, Lauvergne, Rose, Canaan, MCW (I left out Felicio, Gibson, and Noah.)
eFG% - Felicio, Portis, Niko, Grant, Noah, Rose, Gibson, Deng, Valentine, Zipser, Canaan, Lauvergne, Payne, MCW
FTAP36 - Deng, Rose, Noah, MCW, Felicio, Gibson, Niko, Grant, Lauvergne, Portis, Canaan, Zipser, Payne, Valentine
FT% - Canaan, Grant, Valentine, Zipser, Niko, Rose, Deng, MCW, Noah, Portis, Gibson, Felicio, Lauvergne, Payne
RP36 - Noah, Felicio, Portis, Lauvergne, Gibson, Niko, Deng, MCW, Valentine, Zipser, Payne, Grant, Rose, Canaan
AP36 - Rose, MCW, Grant, Payne, Lauvergne, Noah, Valentine, Canaan, Deng, Niko, Zipser, Felicio, Portis, Gibson
SP36 - MCW, Grant, Canaan, Valentine, Niko, Payne, Lauvergne, Felicio, Deng, Gibson, Rose, Zipser, Portis, Noah
BP36 - Noah, Gibson, Niko, MCW, Deng, Zipser, Felicio, Portis, Grant, Valentine, Rose, Canaan, Payne, Lauvergne
TOVP36 - Felicio, Canaan, Portis, Grant, Zipser, Niko, Valentine, Deng, Gibson, Noah, Lauvergne, Rose, MCW, Payne
PFP36 - Rose, Lauvergne, Deng, Canaan, Niko, Valentine, Zipser, Grant, Portis, Payne, Noah, Felicio, MCW, Gibson
PP36 - Rose, Deng, Niko, Portis, Payne, Lauvergne, Grant, Noah, MCW, Gibson, Canaan, Felicio, Valentine, Zipser
ORtg - Felicio, Grant, Noah, Portis, Niko, Rose, Deng, Gibson, Canaan, Zipser, Valentine, Lauvergne, MCW, Payne
DRtg - Noah, Gibson, MCW, Niko, Deng, Lauvergne, Portis, Felicio, Valentine, Grant, Zipser, Rose, Payne, Canaan
PER - Rose, Noah, Deng, Felicio, Portis, Niko, Gibson, Grant, Lauvergne, MCW, Canaan, Valentine, Zipser, Payne
TS% - Felicio, Noah, Grant, Niko, Portis, Rose, Deng, Gibson, Zipser, Valentine, Canaan, Lauvergne, MCW, Payne
WS/48 - Felicio, Noah, Grant, Portis, Niko, Deng, Gibson, Rose, Canaan, Valentine, Zipser, Lauvergne, MCW, Payne
BPM - Noah, Rose, Niko, Deng, Felicio, Grant, Gibson, MCW, Valentine, Portis, Canaan, Zipser, Lauvergne, Payne
VORP - Noah, Rose, Deng, Niko, Gibson, Felicio, Grant, MCW, Lauvergne, Valentine, Canaan, Payne, Portis, Zipser
If you take all of that data and assign points to it so that whoever led each category gets 1 point, second place gets 2, all the way down to whoever came in last getting 14 points, and then add up all the points for all that data, here's how the players rank (lower score is better):
Noah - 94
Niko - 96
Deng - 101
Grant - 107
Felicio - 111
Rose - 113
Portis - 132
Gibson - 147
MCW - 166
Valentine - 169
Lauvergne - 173
Canaan - 175
Zipser - 187
Payne - 219
So obviously, this is an inexact science, but I found it interesting nonetheless. Keep in mind the sample size is very small for Payne (11 games), Lauvergne (20 games), and Canaan (39 games).
I think this shows that we have a group of young players so large that a few of them could definitely still develop into a pretty solid core. Saying that not a single player is showing even close to the promise of Rose, Noah, Deng, and Gibson back in 2009-10 is pretty false, in my opinion. Those four are better than most of our young players, but there are a couple who are showing decent amounts of promise and potential, relatively speaking.
I think we're on the right track but I think we need to trade Jimmy and add to this core. If just a couple of these guys develop into a core pieces and we add another young core piece or two from a Jimmy trade, plus all the FA cap money we'd free up by losing him and probably D-Wade, I think we'd be setting ourselves up quite nicely.
Wow that's a lot of work. I think the challenge for drawing conclusions is the Bulls-only sample set. The difference between two consecutive players on any one of those lists may be 1 person or 300 people on an all NBA sample set. So say the #1 guy in a category is great, the second guy may actually be really bad at that statistic compared to others.
Thanks for putting that analysis together. I think this is where the numbers vs. eye are really divergent. Rose shows as #6 on that list, when to anyone actually watching the games during that time, and then over the last couple of seasons, it's clear that Rose was by far the best player with the brightest future of that group. There's no way I would have looked at a 20 year old Rose vs a current Niko, Grant, or Felicio and picked one of the current guys.
At that time, Gibson was a defensive specialist, but was already showing himself as an NBA ready player on that end. Noah was also a defensive, rebounding center whose offensive game really hadn't blossomed yet. He had the athleticism and aptitude to develop, though, and that was already apparent at that time.
In a sense, this comes back to the basic tenets of Bulls drafting, but that's another discussion for another thread.
In any case, thanks for the work on that analysis!