2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread III

[Ericb5]

If we are talking alpha dog mentality meaning a guy who isn't not afraid to take the big shot or the last shot then Tatum and Monk are probably the most alpha dogs in the top 10. I would put Dennis Smith a close second. Fox right there. Ball and Fultz there. So there are big shot takers and makers in the top ten. We just have to get it right.

From the list you can see being the most alpha dog in clutch situations doesn't mean you have the best talent or should be taken with the 3rd pick (Monk) though.

If there is one guy in the draft with the alpha dog mentality it's Jackson, and you didn't even mention him!


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[SelfishPlayer]

Josh Jackson can only create his own shot when posting up, and he can't even hit free throws. He's probably going to contribute less than Jaylen Brown as a rookie.

[76ciology]

Josh Jackson can only create his own shot when posting up, and he can't even hit free throws. He's probably going to contribute less than Jaylen Brown as a rookie.

He can't improve? He has good fundamentals to improve

[76ciology]

Ball considering working out for Sixers per ESPN.

Colangelo effect.

Work out or your name won't ever be on team USA!

[SelfishPlayer]

Josh Jackson can only create his own shot when posting up, and he can't even hit free throws. He's probably going to contribute less than Jaylen Brown as a rookie.

He can't improve? He has good fundamentals to improve

Everyone has the potential to be great, but his potential isn't great enough to be considered over the guards IMO. You run into serious problems when you draft a wing to be something other than what he is. When you select a point forward in Evan Turner and expect him to become a SG or offball player then you are begging for failure like what happened. If you want Josh Jackson to succeed you need to try to put him in position to do what he did in college if at all possible. Triple threat position, he didn't do in college, red flag. He can't hit free throws, red flag. He does create some things in the middle of the floor, but why have him do that when guards are avaliable that can be more dominat at that?

[Unbreakable99]

If we are talking alpha dog mentality meaning a guy who isn't not afraid to take the big shot or the last shot then Tatum and Monk are probably the most alpha dogs in the top 10. I would put Dennis Smith a close second. Fox right there. Ball and Fultz there. So there are big shot takers and makers in the top ten. We just have to get it right.

From the list you can see being the most alpha dog in clutch situations doesn't mean you have the best talent or should be taken with the 3rd pick (Monk) though.

If there is one guy in the draft with the alpha dog mentality it's Jackson, and you didn't even mention him!


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I was just basing it off a last second shot or something like that. I agree that Jackson is an alpha dog player though. LeBron is an alpha dog and arguably the greatest player ever but he's not the biggest shot maker ever. He does hit big shots but you can name others. Robert Horry was an alpha dog in the clutch but he wasn't better than Barkley. I'd rather Horry take a last second shot over Barkley though. That's all I'm saying. Sam Cassell was another. I would rather Cassell take a last second shot than Barkley.

[SelfishPlayer]

If we are talking alpha dog mentality meaning a guy who isn't not afraid to take the big shot or the last shot then Tatum and Monk are probably the most alpha dogs in the top 10. I would put Dennis Smith a close second. Fox right there. Ball and Fultz there. So there are big shot takers and makers in the top ten. We just have to get it right.

From the list you can see being the most alpha dog in clutch situations doesn't mean you have the best talent or should be taken with the 3rd pick (Monk) though.

If there is one guy in the draft with the alpha dog mentality it's Jackson, and you didn't even mention him!


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I was just basing it off a last second shot or something like that. I agree that Jackson is an alpha dog player though. LeBron is an alpha dog and arguably the greatest player ever but he's not the biggest shot maker ever. He does hit big shots but you can name others. Robert Horry was an alpha dog in the clutch but he wasn't better than Barkley. I'd rather Horry take a last second shot over Barkley though. That's all I'm saying.

Horry was only a big shot maker in the playoffs. I respect it.

[Mik317]

Josh Jackson can only create his own shot when posting up, and he can't even hit free throws. He's probably going to contribute less than Jaylen Brown as a rookie.

He can't improve? He has good fundamentals to improve

Everyone has the potential to be great, but his potential isn't great enough to be considered over the guards IMO. You run into serious problems when you draft a wing to be something other than what he is. When you select a point forward in Evan Turner and expect him to become a SG or offball player then you are begging for failure like what happened. If you want Josh Jackson to succeed you need to try to put him in position to do what he did in college if at all possible. Triple threat position, he didn't do in college, red flag. He can't hit free throws, red flag. He does create some things in the middle of the floor, but why have him do that when guards are avaliable that can be more dominat at that?

Because those guards have just as big flaws if not worse than Jackson? You harp on all of Jackson's flaws (he has them which is why he isn't going to go 1st) but just gloss over everyone that you just so happen to like (something that alot of us are guilty of, myself included).

Fox's is very slight of frame and he doesn't exactly look like a guy who will bulk up that much. He occasionally got bodied in college defensively and offensively because of this. Perhaps in the league with grown ass men, his defense is suddenly not as effective. Perhaps he can't finish as well due to simple nudges (that won't get called...especially here lolololol)? That's not to mention his jumper; yeah it looks good and th-the FT% doe...but its still a concern.

DSJ' team sucked ass and as much as one could blame everyone but him...he still had a role in that. His arms are pretty short too....like actually short...who knows how that effects him in the league. He's a better shooter than Fox...but not exactly knock down. And his ability to play off ball isn't a given. Plus dem knees...with our staff led by Dr. Nick...do you really want them headaches?

Monk also has short arms, is a space cadet defensively, has a weak handle and his best skill is getting contested shots...will that even translate and if it does...will it translate enough to offset his other issues?

I like all 3 of those guys too but at the end of the day no one in this draft (or any draft really) are these flawless creatures so you often have to hope that they overcome these said flaws or they aren't the deal breaker they seem. With Jackson, it is very possible, he's MKG 2.0 (better handles version) and that is a scary thing to take with a top 3 pick (ignoring that MKG went 2nd I suppose). His jumper is broken. His Ft% is worth being concerned over. Yes he did play against college 4s (thats more of a system thing than hiding him tho). Yes his defense is a bit overrated. But at the end of the day we are still talking about a 6'8 athlete with ballhandling ability. That **** is one of the holy grails of basketball. A jumper is something that can be fixed...along with his FT%..that is Brett's specialty...he'll probably never be Steve Nash from the line but I am damn sure Brett could get him to 70% (not great mind you) by the start of his second year. That is the ONE thing Brett has done to many of our guys. The idea is that you look at what the guy could be with time and great coaching and see if even getting close to that is feasible. At best, Jackson is the next great wing. At worst, yeah he's a rangy athlete you sick on guys...taller Tony Allen esque...and yes that is scary to take at 3 I get it. But the midpoint is probably the Iguodala type. Which is honestly great. Jackson also already has tighter handle and body control than Iggy...so I see why people are willing to draft him. Not every thing is this white or black thing as you constantly make it out to be. If it was then we are better off trading out of this draft totally and try again next year...and the year after that until we hit a LeBron can't miss type...but then again he couldn't shoot...so might as well pass on that too. There is going to be risk involved.

[freshie2]

Not sure we can say his midpoint/safe point is iggy. Intriguing prospect, but there are a lot of intriguing prospects. Fox has grown to be more intriguing to me, aND Tatum can't be overlooked either.

[Mik317]

Not sure we can say his midpoint/safe point is iggy. Intriguing prospect, but there are a lot of intriguing prospects. Fox has grown to be more intriguing to me, aND Tatum can't be overlooked either.

Midpoint is a poor choice of words on my point. Basically the way I see is
IdealistCeiling: T-Mac level wing
RealisticCeiling:Iggy Level wing
ProbableCeiling:Taller Tony Allen with some creation skills

with the floor being an athletic bench wing...that probably gets overpaid due to his mythical 3 and D potential.

None of those "ceilings" are bad but they become increasingly less appealing in terms of the 3rd pick...especially considering the fact that most guys don't reach their ceiling; probable or otherwise. But its just annoying to see guys throw around blanket statements of what guys currently can do as if they never will. That's always bothered me a bit...even if there is probably some truth to it

[76ciology]

Josh Jackson can only create his own shot when posting up, and he can't even hit free throws. He's probably going to contribute less than Jaylen Brown as a rookie.

He can't improve? He has good fundamentals to improve

Everyone has the potential to be great, but his potential isn't great enough to be considered over the guards IMO. You run into serious problems when you draft a wing to be something other than what he is. When you select a point forward in Evan Turner and expect him to become a SG or offball player then you are begging for failure like what happened. If you want Josh Jackson to succeed you need to try to put him in position to do what he did in college if at all possible. Triple threat position, he didn't do in college, red flag. He can't hit free throws, red flag. He does create some things in the middle of the floor, but why have him do that when guards are avaliable that can be more dominat at that?

Actually wings are tougher to stop because they are hybrids that they have multiple counters/strengths. And it gets better when opponents' best wing defender will be on Ben Simmons. Something I've been saying.

Josh Jackson's offense is raw to some extent. But you can see his potential as a playmaker, slasher and shooter. His FTs is his biggest weakness, but it's not alarming considering he shot a decent clip with his jumpers.

With these drafts, what i've learned from a couple of years ago(quite stubborn) is people usually make mistake on two things.

1.) how good are those strengths/counters going to translate (can it translate and is it valuable in NBA?)
2.) most have a heavy bias on short term value

You put IQ+Feel for the game+Tools = low risk that a player wont improve.

[76ciology]

Not sure we can say his midpoint/safe point is iggy. Intriguing prospect, but there are a lot of intriguing prospects. Fox has grown to be more intriguing to me, aND Tatum can't be overlooked either.

Midpoint is a poor choice of words on my point. Basically the way I see is
IdealistCeiling: T-Mac level wing
RealisticCeiling:Iggy Level wing
ProbableCeiling:Taller Tony Allen with some creation skills

with the floor being an athletic bench wing...that probably gets overpaid due to his mythical 3 and D potential.

None of those "ceilings" are bad but they become increasingly less appealing in terms of the 3rd pick...especially considering the fact that most guys don't reach their ceiling; probable or otherwise. But its just annoying to see guys throw around blanket statements of what guys currently can do as if they never will. That's always bothered me a bit...even if there is probably some truth to it

For me.

Idealist ceiling: wade or jimmy butler
Likely ceiling: post prime iguodala
Worst case: Evan Turner with better FG% and much better steals&block numbers.

[LloydFree]

Not sure we can say his midpoint/safe point is iggy. Intriguing prospect, but there are a lot of intriguing prospects. Fox has grown to be more intriguing to me, aND Tatum can't be overlooked either.

Midpoint is a poor choice of words on my point. Basically the way I see is
IdealistCeiling: T-Mac level wing
RealisticCeiling:Iggy Level wing
ProbableCeiling:Taller Tony Allen with some creation skills

with the floor being an athletic bench wing...that probably gets overpaid due to his mythical 3 and D potential.

None of those "ceilings" are bad but they become increasingly less appealing in terms of the 3rd pick...especially considering the fact that most guys don't reach their ceiling; probable or otherwise. But its just annoying to see guys throw around blanket statements of what guys currently can do as if they never will. That's always bothered me a bit...even if there is probably some truth to it

I'm glad you included T-mac as your ultimate comp, because I see that, but haven't been willing to listen to the derision.

When people go back and look at past drafts and wonder how Keth Van Horn and Tim Thomas get picked ahead of Tracey McGrady, or how Dennis Hopson and Reggie Williams get picked ahead of Scottie Pippen or Glenn Robinson over Grant Hill or even Ben Gordon ahead of Andre Iguodala, it aways comes down to the same thing. Teams over-draft current shooting and pay no attention to body control, athleticism or ball-handling. A lot of the guys I'm seeing argued over Jackson are better current shooters, but are going to be lesser Offensive players than Jackson in two years. People will be saying "why on earth did the 76ers pass on this guy? He can shoot now."

[SelfishPlayer]

You have to overlook so much to want Josh Jackson. I get that he was once considered the #1 overall pick, but there are better NBA prospects. People talk about his playmaking ability when his assist to turnover ratio suggests that you want him to make decisions LESS!
He's a turnover machine and he played PF/C, how is that possible? He should have had an impeccable assist to turnover ratio being that he was guarded by college centers and power forwards. And the poor free throw shooting... SMH...

[Ericb5]

Not sure we can say his midpoint/safe point is iggy. Intriguing prospect, but there are a lot of intriguing prospects. Fox has grown to be more intriguing to me, aND Tatum can't be overlooked either.

The thing with this draft is that there are so many good prospects in the top 10 that we are going to get a really good player no matter what happens.

Who knows? Fox could be the best player in 3 years, or Smith, or Tatum, or Jackson, or Fultz, or Ball. Pretty crazy actually.


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[PhilasFinest]

He can't improve? He has good fundamentals to improve

Everyone has the potential to be great, but his potential isn't great enough to be considered over the guards IMO. You run into serious problems when you draft a wing to be something other than what he is. When you select a point forward in Evan Turner and expect him to become a SG or offball player then you are begging for failure like what happened. If you want Josh Jackson to succeed you need to try to put him in position to do what he did in college if at all possible. Triple threat position, he didn't do in college, red flag. He can't hit free throws, red flag. He does create some things in the middle of the floor, but why have him do that when guards are avaliable that can be more dominat at that?

Actually wings are tougher to stop because they are hybrids that they have multiple counters/strengths. And it gets better when opponents' best wing defender will be on Ben Simmons. Something I've been saying.

Josh Jackson's offense is raw to some extent. But you can see his potential as a playmaker, slasher and shooter. His FTs is his biggest weakness, but it's not alarming considering he shot a decent clip with his jumpers.

With these drafts, what i've learned from a couple of years ago(quite stubborn) is people usually make mistake on two things.

1.) how good are those strengths/counters going to translate (can it translate and is it valuable in NBA?)
2.) most have a heavy bias on short term value

You put IQ+Feel for the game+Tools = low risk that a player wont improve.

Sorry, but gotta disagree with his FT% not being alarming. Im a Jackson fan and have him amongst my top wants in the draft, but his FT% is huge issue and is a bit alarming. Good shooters rarely shoot poorly from the FT line, and 56% is AWFUL.

[Mik317]

You have to overlook so much to want Josh Jackson. I get that he was once considered the #1 overall pick, but there are better NBA prospects. People talk about his playmaking ability when his assist to turnover ratio suggests that you want him to make decisions LESS!
He's a turnover machine and he played PF/C, how is that possible? He should have had an impeccable assist to turnover ratio being that he was guarded by college centers and power forwards. And the poor free throw shooting... SMH...

No one is overlooking that. They just aren't as laser focused into it as you are because they believe it can be worked on with time. His ast/to rate is high but that can be chalked up to the **** college spacing, doing too much and simple bad reads. The NBA spacing is soo much better even with bad shooters. He won't be asked to do as much creating right away if at all beyond, pump faking and getting his own shot, and again with time better reads will come. We legit watched that happen with TLC who looked lost in summer league and was randomly dropping dimes at the end of the year. Reps are a damn good cure all as dudes begin to get comfortable and learn the game. Of course it is very possible that it doesn't click with Jackson. It happens. However, most are betting that it will.....or at the very least not be the death sentence you are making it out to be.

[LloydFree]

Assist to turnover rate is the most over-rated stat anyone can use to project prospects. It means next to nothing. For kicks, when the NBA MVP voting is finished, go check the College assist to turnover rate of the top 5-10 vote getters.

[LongLiveHinkie]

Around the draft time there are always one or two players people on this board have an agenda against. I don't get it. I mean, I'd get becoming a hater of that player if they got drafted by the Knicks or Celtics or something, but they are pretty neutral entities right now being in college.

[76ciology]

Not sure we can say his midpoint/safe point is iggy. Intriguing prospect, but there are a lot of intriguing prospects. Fox has grown to be more intriguing to me, aND Tatum can't be overlooked either.

The thing with this draft is that there are so many good prospects in the top 10 that we are going to get a really good player no matter what happens.

Who knows? Fox could be the best player in 3 years, or Smith, or Tatum, or Jackson, or Fultz, or Ball. Pretty crazy actually.


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For me, alot is at the same tier that I think draft day will be crazy and some teams might go for needs over guys consensusly projected at their spots