Snapbacks and Handshakes: The 2017 Draft (Raps pick #23)

[OAKLEY_2]

So am pretty much off the available power forward prospects bandwagon.

[LonZoBallin]

I'm looking deeper into Dennis smith JR and man I'm telling you SUPERSTAR.


Better 3 point shooter than Fultz, Ball or fox

Gets to the line more than all of them combined.

Doesn't take 2 point jump shots.

Runs the Pick and roll better than any of the point guards.

All this coming off a 10 month layoff due to an ACL injury.

His defence can improve but he''ll be top 5 in steals every year. Great instincts

SUPERSTAR!

There was a guy on reddit who does draft analytics for some teams and he said Smith's pick and roll stats are pretty suspect and that might be a red flag on his decision making ability. I'm pretty high on him, but he does have a few question marks.

They said the same abt Westbrook...Plus, DSJ played on a horribly coached team. I think the coach ws fired mid season he ws so bad.

The only red-flag DSJ has is injuries.

[Kevin Willis]

Who ever we get they need to shoot the 3 - that's the direction we're going, doesn't matter the position.

[ATLTimekeeper]

I'm looking deeper into Dennis smith JR and man I'm telling you SUPERSTAR.


Better 3 point shooter than Fultz, Ball or fox

Gets to the line more than all of them combined.

Doesn't take 2 point jump shots.

Runs the Pick and roll better than any of the point guards.

All this coming off a 10 month layoff due to an ACL injury.

His defence can improve but he''ll be top 5 in steals every year. Great instincts

SUPERSTAR!

There was a guy on reddit who does draft analytics for some teams and he said Smith's pick and roll stats are pretty suspect and that might be a red flag on his decision making ability. I'm pretty high on him, but he does have a few question marks.

They said the same abt Westbrook...Plus, DSJ played on a horribly coached team. I think the coach ws fired mid season he ws so bad.

The only red-flag DSJ has is injuries.

They said the same about Brandon Jennings, too. Westbrook was a back up combo guard that had to learn the PG position in the NBA. DSJ was a point guard in college. It's not a good comparison. Anyway, you were the one that claimed he was the best pick and roll player out of all the other point guard options, I just pointed out that one guy that studies this stuff seems to think that's not the case.

I'm not going to get into a fanboy war over a player I also like.

[ATLTimekeeper]

So am pretty much off the available power forward prospects bandwagon.

What happened to TJ Leaf?

I actually agree that the draft is suspiciously loaded with stretch bigs in a way that makes it tempting for teams like ours to draft for trend and maybe miss out on talent. There's some stretch bigs I like, and a lot I don't have much hope for.

[Anatomize]

Great athlete. Plays kind of soft judging by those very low rebounding numbers. If he can play some SF that's probably less of an issue, but as a big it matters even in this perimeter ball era. Explosive athlete though, so I wouldn't exactly be mad if we picked him.

College numbers usually aren't a great indicator of rebounding. There's a lot of zone being played. He averaged 5 rebounds, guess who else did in college? Marquese Chriss.

All of his shooting stats and athleticism indicate he's a very favorable prototype for the new NBA SF / PF style, he even hit 83% at the line, that's a huge benefit at his size.

Athleticism usually translates well to solid rebounding numbers, and he looks to have a body on him which will allow for significant physical growth.

Chriss averaged a little under 5 rebounds as a rookie in just 21 mpg.

He compares pretty favorably to Chriss with his tools.. and if we can get that at 23 that's pretty solid.. He's growing on me.

Chriss is 6'10 with shoes and a 7 foot wingspan with a 38.5 max vert. He doesn't have a crazy wingspan for his size ala guys like Draymond, but he's a shot blocking machine because he's such a fast leaper, and is extremely athletic.

Wilson is 6'10.5 with shoes with a 7'3 wingspan (no vert measured), and has a standing reach of 9'1 - and is already a bonafide shot blocker.

There's a lot to like here based on the measurements and what I'm seeing visually.

This guy already seems to be a better shooter than Chriss (huge difference in FT%). One guy went 8th, and Wilson is slated to go in the mid - late 20's.

As long as he's not injury prone I wouldn't be mad about this pick.

Chriss grabbed 4.2 boards, closer to 4 than "a little under 5" in 21 minutes. He averaged 5.4 in 24 minutes as an 18 year old in Washington. So he didn't show growth in the NBA. Wilson averaged 5.3 in 30 minutes as a 21 year old. So he's likely to be worse than Chriss in that area. Chriss was drafted 8th because we was 18 and scored 13.4/p, showing some potential as a scorer in the NBA. Wilson scored 11 points in his 30 minutes. These guys aren't the same calibre of prospect in terms of what NBA execs are banking on.

I think you're missing the point of my post.

I didn't say they're the same calibre of prospect, I said they have similar physical tools / assets / skills / measurements. It is readily apparent when you watch both of them play.

Also, judging sample size of rebounding based on college play is really meaningless; let alone a 19 year old rookie - and 4+ boards in 21 mpg really isn't that bad - hell Patterson grabbed the same amount in 3 more minutes and he's far older and has been in the NBA much longer. I am willing to bet the house with you that Chriss grows to at least 8-9 RPG as of next season as a full time starting PF as long as he receives at least 30 minutes, willing to wager?

Athletic tools and physique usually translate very well to good rebounding stats.. I don't think either guy will have issues in that department. I'm just a little surprised you stated it so matter a factly based on pretty much nothing in terms of statistical evidence.. 1 season in college, 1 rookie year..very young.

In today's NBA having a tweener SF / PF / C who can shoot + run the floor + supremely athletic + attack closeouts is very valuable - I feel like this guy also has a higher ceiling as I said above. I said this before in other threads but I think you will continue to see the trend of guys like Chriss and even Wilson moving forward across the board. Guys who run the floor like shooting guards / small fowards, shoot well from 3, but are PFs.

Lastly, Chriss averaged 7 boards in 26 MPG in the final 6 games in April.. he improved in nearly every single category statistically speaking with each ascending month of the season (including rebounding). So it's more of an experience issue, and I'd like to take a chance on someone (like Wilson) who shows a lot of similarities/physical gifts.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Chriss could get better. Not going to get into betting on prospects. That's stupidity. Wilson's sub 12 TRB% puts him in non-NBA territory for a big man, although admittedly the league is changing and he does have tools to be a role player. At 21 years old, with limited production in his one year on regular PT and his awful rebound rate I don't consider him much of a prospect.

[Mikistan]

College numbers usually aren't a great indicator of rebounding. There's a lot of zone being played. He averaged 5 rebounds, guess who else did in college? Marquese Chriss.

All of his shooting stats and athleticism indicate he's a very favorable prototype for the new NBA SF / PF style, he even hit 83% at the line, that's a huge benefit at his size.

Athleticism usually translates well to solid rebounding numbers, and he looks to have a body on him which will allow for significant physical growth.

Chriss averaged a little under 5 rebounds as a rookie in just 21 mpg.

He compares pretty favorably to Chriss with his tools.. and if we can get that at 23 that's pretty solid.. He's growing on me.

Chriss is 6'10 with shoes and a 7 foot wingspan with a 38.5 max vert. He doesn't have a crazy wingspan for his size ala guys like Draymond, but he's a shot blocking machine because he's such a fast leaper, and is extremely athletic.

Wilson is 6'10.5 with shoes with a 7'3 wingspan (no vert measured), and has a standing reach of 9'1 - and is already a bonafide shot blocker.

There's a lot to like here based on the measurements and what I'm seeing visually.

This guy already seems to be a better shooter than Chriss (huge difference in FT%). One guy went 8th, and Wilson is slated to go in the mid - late 20's.

As long as he's not injury prone I wouldn't be mad about this pick.

Chriss grabbed 4.2 boards, closer to 4 than "a little under 5" in 21 minutes. He averaged 5.4 in 24 minutes as an 18 year old in Washington. So he didn't show growth in the NBA. Wilson averaged 5.3 in 30 minutes as a 21 year old. So he's likely to be worse than Chriss in that area. Chriss was drafted 8th because we was 18 and scored 13.4/p, showing some potential as a scorer in the NBA. Wilson scored 11 points in his 30 minutes. These guys aren't the same calibre of prospect in terms of what NBA execs are banking on.

I think you're missing the point of my post.

I didn't say they're the same calibre of prospect, I said they have similar physical tools / assets / skills / measurements. It is readily apparent when you watch both of them play.

Also, judging sample size of rebounding based on college play is really meaningless; let alone a 19 year old rookie - and 4+ boards in 21 mpg really isn't that bad - hell Patterson grabbed the same amount in 3 more minutes and he's far older and has been in the NBA much longer. I am willing to bet the house with you that Chriss grows to at least 8-9 RPG as of next season as a full time starting PF as long as he receives at least 30 minutes, willing to wager?

Athletic tools and physique usually translate very well to good rebounding stats.. I don't think either guy will have issues in that department. I'm just a little surprised you stated it so matter a factly based on pretty much nothing in terms of statistical evidence.. 1 season in college, 1 rookie year..very young.

In today's NBA having a tweener SF / PF / C who can shoot + run the floor + supremely athletic + attack closeouts is very valuable - I feel like this guy also has a higher ceiling as I said above. I said this before in other threads but I think you will continue to see the trend of guys like Chriss and even Wilson moving forward across the board. Guys who run the floor like shooting guards / small fowards, shoot well from 3, but are PFs.

Lastly, Chriss averaged 7 boards in 26 MPG in the final 6 games in April.. he improved in nearly every single category statistically speaking with each ascending month of the season (including rebounding). So it's more of an experience issue, and I'd like to take a chance on someone (like Wilson) who shows a lot of similarities/physical gifts.

Wilson went from being a 6 minuter per game player to a 30 min per game player for Michigan in year 2 to 3.
That its a big mental leap, he scored 11 pts on 8 shots per game with pretty good percentages, and the 3pt shot 2.9pg at 37% - and an overtime forcing 3 in his highlights i see

he can dunk great, he can move his feed defensively well, he has great legnth with 6 foot 10 -- 7 foot 3 wingspan

Mentally i think the jump from bench to 3rd highest points per game player -- his game logs show 5 out of 36 games with 10+ rebounds, and some 3-4 block games and steals peppered in and only 2 games with 5 and 6 assists max, all others were in the 1/2.5 assist range

Overall i like what i see from him, but if he will ever be an xfactor/star, he will need to learn how to do at the NBA level.

TLDR: He has to play SF offensively and maybe even defensively unless our C is cleaning up the glass for him

I still like Bolden over him, but if we pick Wilson i could still be happy - seems like a PF Terrence Ross - Bolden seems stronger, nastier on his dunks, but Wilson has some pretty athletic looking plays, seems to go booth hands int he lane okay too

[Anatomize]

Chriss could get better. Not going to get into betting on prospects. That's stupidity. Wilson's sub 12 TRB% puts him in non-NBA territory for a big man, although admittedly the league is changing and he does have tools to be a role player. At 21 years old, with limited production in his one year on regular PT and his awful rebound rate I don't consider him much of a prospect.

So you're not intrigued at all watching him? I find that surprising. The NBA is such a fast pace up and down level compared to College - guys who can leak out in transition like he does gives us a huge boost on outlet passes to get quick scores when the defense isn't set. They milk the clock in the NCAA and regularly go into deep long half court sets. The NBA is just way more open court and free flowing - and if we're keen on shooting more 3's we'll also have to quicken the pace - so he plays nicely into that running and shooting and getting back on defense.

I feel like you're pigeon holing him a bit based on your post. A lot of GMs make this mistake in the NBA by categorizing guys as something without enough of a sample size, and they end up passing on a lot of legit talent because they aren't seeing what's right there physically or the ceiling for more. Your argument stems mostly from a statistics point of view (when his stats weren't even bad), if that's the case and we're judging college players' stats Hansbrough should've gone first overall and Redick not far behind him. Projecting ceilings and looking at tools / physical gifts is far more important than looking for popcorn numbers at the collegiate level - if he was paltry I would agree with you.

I just won't judge too much on college for certain numbers. Systems play such a major factor in college. People around here love Leaf but I am highly unimpressed and feel like it could be another less-athletic Meyers Leonard situation - their system also has so much ball movement that it can make certain guys look better - we don't run anything close to what UCLA does with high post passes and back cuts and plenty of touches to go around - their offense looked like some of the more advanced ones in the NBA stylistically speaking.

Powell slipped because of age. Damian Lillard slipped because of his conference/team he played on. Isaiah Thomas slipped because of size (so did Kay Felder). Porzingis was too thin and people were too scared he'll be another Bargnani. The guy should've been a sure fire #2 pick. Hell I still even like Jeremy Lamb - the guy produces every time he steps on the court for Charlotte and he still doesn't get love because he's been boxed in as some low-IQ guy. There's thousands of cases like this.

I'm just not sure how you can look at any of his DX draft vids and not say damn this guy has some really nice tools for the new NBA, but you know what I'll pass because he's 21. As far as I'm concerned 11 / 5 on amazing %'s and 1.5 blocks at pick 23 from a 21 year old who basically played his first season (his freshman season doesn't count he barely saw any minutes) is nothing to snuff at. It also doesn't take into account what type of system Michigan runs, he looks like he gets all of his points in transition and from catch and shoot situations, so clearly he's not being treated as a primary target or a high usage player - I'm not sure what you're expecting at this pick range.

Just to add onto his other skills, he's also excellent at closing out on shooters, he blocks jumpshots regularly with his athleticism - that is a coveted skill at the NBA level - one that guys like Otto Porter, Aminu, James Johnson bring to the table.

[HeadtopChunes]

I'm looking deeper into Dennis smith JR and man I'm telling you SUPERSTAR.


Better 3 point shooter than Fultz, Ball or fox

Gets to the line more than all of them combined.

Doesn't take 2 point jump shots.

Runs the Pick and roll better than any of the point guards.

All this coming off a 10 month layoff due to an ACL injury.

His defence can improve but he''ll be top 5 in steals every year. Great instincts

SUPERSTAR!

There was a guy on reddit who does draft analytics for some teams and he said Smith's pick and roll stats are pretty suspect and that might be a red flag on his decision making ability. I'm pretty high on him, but he does have a few question marks.

They said the same abt Westbrook...Plus, DSJ played on a horribly coached team. I think the coach ws fired mid season he ws so bad.

The only red-flag DSJ has is injuries.

Doesn't DSJ have some major personality issues? Its why his stock fell so much. He doesn't give a **** about defense either. Plus history of knee problems on a guy who mainly relies on atheleticism.

[Anatomize]

Chriss grabbed 4.2 boards, closer to 4 than "a little under 5" in 21 minutes. He averaged 5.4 in 24 minutes as an 18 year old in Washington. So he didn't show growth in the NBA. Wilson averaged 5.3 in 30 minutes as a 21 year old. So he's likely to be worse than Chriss in that area. Chriss was drafted 8th because we was 18 and scored 13.4/p, showing some potential as a scorer in the NBA. Wilson scored 11 points in his 30 minutes. These guys aren't the same calibre of prospect in terms of what NBA execs are banking on.

I think you're missing the point of my post.

I didn't say they're the same calibre of prospect, I said they have similar physical tools / assets / skills / measurements. It is readily apparent when you watch both of them play.

Also, judging sample size of rebounding based on college play is really meaningless; let alone a 19 year old rookie - and 4+ boards in 21 mpg really isn't that bad - hell Patterson grabbed the same amount in 3 more minutes and he's far older and has been in the NBA much longer. I am willing to bet the house with you that Chriss grows to at least 8-9 RPG as of next season as a full time starting PF as long as he receives at least 30 minutes, willing to wager?

Athletic tools and physique usually translate very well to good rebounding stats.. I don't think either guy will have issues in that department. I'm just a little surprised you stated it so matter a factly based on pretty much nothing in terms of statistical evidence.. 1 season in college, 1 rookie year..very young.

In today's NBA having a tweener SF / PF / C who can shoot + run the floor + supremely athletic + attack closeouts is very valuable - I feel like this guy also has a higher ceiling as I said above. I said this before in other threads but I think you will continue to see the trend of guys like Chriss and even Wilson moving forward across the board. Guys who run the floor like shooting guards / small fowards, shoot well from 3, but are PFs.

Lastly, Chriss averaged 7 boards in 26 MPG in the final 6 games in April.. he improved in nearly every single category statistically speaking with each ascending month of the season (including rebounding). So it's more of an experience issue, and I'd like to take a chance on someone (like Wilson) who shows a lot of similarities/physical gifts.

Wilson went from being a 6 minuter per game player to a 30 min per game player for Michigan in year 2 to 3.
That its a big mental leap, he scored 11 pts on 8 shots per game with pretty good percentages, and the 3pt shot 2.9pg at 37% - and an overtime forcing 3 in his highlights i see

he can dunk great, he can move his feed defensively well, he has great legnth with 6 foot 10 -- 7 foot 3 wingspan

Mentally i think the jump from bench to 3rd highest points per game player -- his game logs show 5 out of 36 games with 10+ rebounds, and some 3-4 block games and steals peppered in and only 2 games with 5 and 6 assists max, all others were in the 1/2.5 assist range

Overall i like what i see from him, but if he will ever be an xfactor/star, he will need to learn how to do at the NBA level.

TLDR: He has to play SF offensively and maybe even defensively unless our C is cleaning up the glass for him

I still like Bolden over him, but if we pick Wilson i could still be happy - seems like a PF Terrence Ross - Bolden seems stronger, nastier on his dunks, but Wilson has some pretty athletic looking plays, seems to go booth hands int he lane okay too

I like Bolden a lot too and won't be mad about either pick. For the record I was one of the biggest proponents of us drafting Rodney Hood over Bruno. I think this franchise has LONG undervalued high level talent from some of the top end programs in the NCAA when it comes to the draft. In recent years, Powell was the first time I really saw us actually take an athletic stud from a winning storied NCAA program... we've gone international far too much lately to try and appease whatever we think the image of our team is at the NBA level or maybe we're just trying to copy the Spurs and unsuccessfully doing so..

We always want the raw project who is deemed to have a high ceiling in the future or the guy who might end up as a superstar, but regularly underrate the guys who can contribute right away but also have a lot of gifts for more. We don't always need a homerun pick, sometimes we need to make the obvious consensus pick - that's all I'm asking.

You see as far as this draft is concerned, and not to sound racist (I am white though) I'd rather get a lot more of SIakam / Wilson / Chriss / Bolden types - I want the new prototype SF / PF / C's. Extreme mobility / fluidity in running the floor like guards - this is a great advantage for easy leakouts and scores. Length - cannot be understated - cause disruption by creating turnovers with poke steals, lane steals, blocked shots, get out and run and beat slow plodding big men up the floor. Spot up and shoot 3's, pick and pop, roll to the basket hard and use that supreme athleticism to finish over the top (instead of getting blocked due to underwhelming athleticism the way guys like Olynyk and Kaminsky do - though they are crafty at finishing).

Guys like Leaf, Olynyk, Kaminsky are just too slow laterally at the NBA level - for whatever positives Olynyk gave in these playoffs (which were plenty and I'm a big fan of his on offense with his beautiful passing, shooting, and crafty ball fakes and up and unders like Kaminsky) he got eaten alive on any switch - Cleveland readily attacked him when he was on the court, the same way teams do to us with JV. We need to enter the new phase of the NBA and get more athletic players who are much better at moving laterally and have the length to cause disruption and create turnovers so we can run and go the other way.

Terrence Ross had horrible steal numbers all throughout college and also at the NBA level, his wingspan is the same as his body height, so he was a tad underwhelming with his measurements. He did two things well - shoot 3's and ran the floor for some dunks - his shot came and went and so did his defense.

[LonZoBallin]

There was a guy on reddit who does draft analytics for some teams and he said Smith's pick and roll stats are pretty suspect and that might be a red flag on his decision making ability. I'm pretty high on him, but he does have a few question marks.

They said the same abt Westbrook...Plus, DSJ played on a horribly coached team. I think the coach ws fired mid season he ws so bad.

The only red-flag DSJ has is injuries.

They said the same about Brandon Jennings, too. Westbrook was a back up combo guard that had to learn the PG position in the NBA. DSJ was a point guard in college. It's not a good comparison. Anyway, you were the one that claimed he was the best pick and roll player out of all the other point guard options, I just pointed out that one guy that studies this stuff seems to think that's not the case.

I'm not going to get into a fanboy war over a player I also like.

Jennings is a below average athlete....DSJ is just under Westbrook athlete

I'm telling you the coach sucks and he can run the PnR.

The perfect comp for DSJ is Steve Francis without the headaches

[LonZoBallin]

There was a guy on reddit who does draft analytics for some teams and he said Smith's pick and roll stats are pretty suspect and that might be a red flag on his decision making ability. I'm pretty high on him, but he does have a few question marks.

They said the same abt Westbrook...Plus, DSJ played on a horribly coached team. I think the coach ws fired mid season he ws so bad.

The only red-flag DSJ has is injuries.

Doesn't DSJ have some major personality issues? Its why his stock fell so much. He doesn't give a **** about defense either. Plus history of knee problems on a guy who mainly relies on atheleticism.

no personality issues...if anything his character was shown coming back from an ACL injury with flying colours. And he's already finished his softmore year after one year because when he got injured, he went to college early to rehab and take classes. Great head on his shoulder


Westbrook had the same injury more times and he just averaged a triple double. Coming back from injuries these days is all mental with how science has grown. He's already proven he can pass that mental hurdle

[Syd-TK3]

So am pretty much off the available power forward prospects bandwagon.

The position we need most is small foward but this draft is exgremely weak for that.
At our pick most of the BPA guys are power fowards so unless a late lotto guy drops we are better of just taking them.

In a perfect world we would still have the magics pick and draft BPA and then maybe a guy for needs/fit.
So I'm hoping we somehow get a early second round pick

[Syd-TK3]

Updated version of the Ringers in dept mock draft https://nbadraft.theringer.com

[HangTime]

Maybe we can trade down in first round, and get a 2nd rounder.

Then maybe we can trade VanVleet or Nougeria for a 2nd rounder.

Use the 3 picks to get Ojeleye, Thornwall, and Evans.

[raptor jesus]

What's the consensus on DJ Wilson around here? I'm watching these highlights and it's hard not to be intrigued.. he seems like if he matures physically speaking he could be a beast after some time in the gym..

I was surprised by his measurements - 6'10 in shoes, 7'3 wingspan. I always figured he was closer to 6'7 based on how fluidly he moves. Because of that size, fluidity, athleticism and touch from outside, I'd say he's really not that different of a prospect than Chriss, whom this board was enamoured with last year.

[VanWest82]

Who ever we get they need to shoot the 3 - that's the direction we're going, doesn't matter the position.

Unless you're talking about an NBA level athlete who's also a knock down shooter, or a world class play maker who can also shoot (and both of those types would be top 10 selections) then I think you're better off going after the guy who can do everything else but is lacking a jump shot. Shooting is the one skill that's often teachable, whereas it's proven to be really difficult to coach someone into becoming a great rebounder, play maker, or defender when they weren't in college.

Edit: this seems to be part of Masai's draft philosophy if you look at who we've taken the last few years. Norm, DWright, Siakam, and Poeltl are all nice players who were lacking a jumper coming out of college. Norm has added one, so he plays. The other three haven't (yet) so they don't. It won't work every time obv., but I think it's a safer bet than the other way around.

[RaptorsLife]

[instagram][/instagram]

Who ever we get they need to shoot the 3 - that's the direction we're going, doesn't matter the position.

Unless you're talking about an NBA level athlete who's also a knock down shooter, or a world class play maker who can also shoot (and both of those types would be top 10 selections) then I think you're better off going after the guy who can do everything else but is lacking a jump shot. Shooting is the one skill that's often teachable, whereas it's proven to be really difficult to coach someone into becoming a great rebounder, play maker, or defender when they weren't in college.

Like honestly I don't think casey gonna play tj leaf or lydon against the cavs for example they can shoot but too experience. Getting shooting from vets makes more sense

[raptor jesus]

Updated version of the Ringers in dept mock draft https://nbadraft.theringer.com

Norm has officially arrived: