Hayward Undecided

[FlatearthZorro]

Tyson Chandler has always been on my radar screen, but apparently not on the Ainge radar screen.

He's 35 years old, lad and once he leaves PHO he could very well fall apart. Just roll the dices on Ante. Griffin and Millsap can help our rebounding and frontcourt quality. I still think our main focus remains Hayward and Brad is so close to Hayward and his family that people are underestimating our chances.

[Tiny ball]

Getting the #1 pick has kind of taken the wind out of this for me. You get to the point that there is only one basketball. Obviously you sign Hayward you can move Brown or Crowder but I think the focus has to be spending the money at the 4/5. Gallo is a no he just isn't good enough on the glass to be messing around with need a rebounder.

There is always one basketball, don't understand the point. There was one basketball whether we're picking first or 30th. The only two teams remaining happen to be the only two teams in the league that have 3 guys on their squad that can hang 30 on you every night. If you can't score and make the other team work on defense you have no chance. None.

Very nice to see you get it. All the defense in the world will get you no place if you can not score baskets.

[165bows]

Which top 25 player are you talking about?

All of them.

So if Hayward says no, what's your plan B?

Let me add that Hayward isn't necessarily a top 25 player, although he's close.

Plenty of ways to go, but a top-25 guy that will be in his prime the whole contract that only costs money (plus the loss of 1-2 decent role guys to be fair) is far and away the best value available to the team.

He was top-25 in the all-NBA team voting, and he's over a couple of guys that were ahead of him (Whiteside and DeRozan), plus a few older guys that won't be as good as he is 4 years from now (Millsap, M. Gasol, Aldridge). As a current FA, he's top-25 value, especially as a FA from another team.

Under-rated aspect of contracts these days is that getting a top-30ish player from another team in FA is a very good value, since the contract is limited compared to teams signing their own players. It's a weird niche 'value' in the contract structure, since in most sports signing a FA on the open market means a team is outbidding all other teams. In other words, to sign a free agent you have to pay more than a player's market rate (ie what every other team is willing to pay). But compare Hayward on a 4-year FA max compared to a 5 year DPE contract that Utah almost was able to offer. It's vastly more expensive and takes him into overpaid territory.

Current contract values look like this:

Top-5ish guys on max deals, good players on rookie deals, then 4 year maxes for top-25 players.

There are going to be some awful deals doled out in the next few years by teams trying to keep guys in that 10-40 range of best players. 6 years from now when LeBron is retired and Irving is making $50M and taking up 40% of the cap, that is an absolute no-win situation, even if he still is the 11th best player in the league.

There will be a lot of Allan Houston 2.0s out there but getting FAs from other teams prevents that since the contract is limited.

[165bows]

Which top 25 player are you talking about?

All of them.

So if Hayward says no, what's your plan B?

Let me add that Hayward isn't necessarily a top 25 player, although he's close.

To answer the question, I'd pursue Blake in FA (better fit for the team, worse in age, injury and drop-off risk than Hayward). I'd consider Millsap or possibly Gallinari for shorter deals, personally after that I would consider Carmelo if there were no real trade assets required.

I wouldn't dump big trade assets for a big name, IMO they will continue to pursue trades only if they are great value and I agree with that.

Other options depend on how they think the markets shape up. If nothing lands in trade/FA that they like, they could extend AB and/or IT to keep them at below market contracts and extend their control and also trade value.

If no extensions, there is an outside chance they could go the rent-a-vet mode again and shoot for FA next summer. They'd likely be over the cap, but they could try to force a sign and trade with some great players out there, primarily Paul George. Klay Thompson is one to monitor for 1-2 years out as well in trades.

[GregB]

Then we can move one of our guards or wings for a Big after Hayward signs.

Salary becomes a challenge at that point. Trading for the guys making 8 figures won't be totally easy. And the cheaper guys one might want -- like Porzingis -- may not be available for reasonable trade packages.

I don't think it's that big of an issue. The salary matching difference has been increased under the new CBA. If we added Jackson and a min player to Crowder. We can match a salary in the 10-12 mil range. Then it's all about uncovering an underutilized front court player via trade or FA.

Guys with equal or more value than Crowder who could be available.

Willy Cauley-Stein
Favors
Jamychel Green ( s&t )
Vucevic
Noah Vonleh
Kostas Koufos
Aaron Baynes. (S&t)
Dewayn Dedmon (s&t)
Jonas V
O Quinn
R Lopez
Richaun Holmes
Jahlil Okafor

These are all players that we could match salaries on.

WCS would be the jewel and clearly the most expensive. Maybe a Rozier and Crowder+ deal could entice Sacramento.

After that, Jamychel Green in a sign and trade strait up for Crowder would be my next preference.

After that I would consider a few of those guys strait up for Crowder. After that I would want some other value coming back

[sully00]

Getting the #1 pick has kind of taken the wind out of this for me. You get to the point that there is only one basketball. Obviously you sign Hayward you can move Brown or Crowder but I think the focus has to be spending the money at the 4/5. Gallo is a no he just isn't good enough on the glass to be messing around with need a rebounder.

There is always one basketball, don't understand the point. There was one basketball whether we're picking first or 30th. The only two teams remaining happen to be the only two teams in the league that have 3 guys on their squad that can hang 30 on you every night. If you can't score and make the other team work on defense you have no chance. None.

The same goes for defense and rebounding. It isn't purely about scoring it is how you score. I think Thomas and Fultz would give you two guys who want the ball in their hands, and honestly Boston needs more of that right now. Hayward is the same type of player who is going to replace a hustle, defend, run around without the ball and make plays guy. Boston made it to the Conference Finals playing with a lot of guys who hustle, defend, run around and make plays and play a very unselfish style of ball. They beat teams who had more talented individual players. While yes you need guys who can be explosive offensively it rarely works when they are all ball dominant players. The guys in Golden State are not ball dominant players, CLE has Love who has really developed as an off the ball scorer.

I want Boston to add scoring and guys who can create offense I am just not sure I want it to be an on the ball wing player who isn't going to help on the glass and likely is going to hurt the bottom line defensively. You can skin the cat a lot of ways, I just don't sense adding Fultz and Hayward without a move upfront is going to help that much and is more likely to change the identity of the team. I just think this team needs help upfront a lot more than it needs to replace Bradley or Crowder with Hayward.

[Gomes3PC]

Then we can move one of our guards or wings for a Big after Hayward signs.

Salary becomes a challenge at that point. Trading for the guys making 8 figures won't be totally easy. And the cheaper guys one might want -- like Porzingis -- may not be available for reasonable trade packages.

I don't think it's that big of an issue. The salary matching difference has been increased under the new CBA. If we added Jackson and a min player to Crowder. We can match a salary in the 10-12 mil range. Then it's all about uncovering an underutilized front court player via trade or FA.

Guys with equal or more value than Crowder who could be available.

Willy Cauley-Stein
Favors
Jamychel Green ( s&t )
Vucevic
Noah Vonleh
Kostas Koufos
Aaron Baynes. (S&t)
Dewayn Dedmon (s&t)
Jonas V
O Quinn
R Lopez
Richaun Holmes
Jahlil Okafor

These are all players that we could match salaries on.

WCS would be the jewel and clearly the most expensive. Maybe a Rozier and Crowder+ deal could entice Sacramento.

After that, Jamychel Green in a sign and trade strait up for Crowder would be my next preference.

After that I would consider a few of those guys strait up for Crowder. After that I would want some other value coming back

There's definitely some good names in there. Favors and WCS are the most talented, but I also really like Holmes, Quinn, and Baynes. Any of those five would really help with our interior D/rebounding.

[Homerclease]

Getting the #1 pick has kind of taken the wind out of this for me. You get to the point that there is only one basketball. Obviously you sign Hayward you can move Brown or Crowder but I think the focus has to be spending the money at the 4/5. Gallo is a no he just isn't good enough on the glass to be messing around with need a rebounder.

There is always one basketball, don't understand the point. There was one basketball whether we're picking first or 30th. The only two teams remaining happen to be the only two teams in the league that have 3 guys on their squad that can hang 30 on you every night. If you can't score and make the other team work on defense you have no chance. None.

The same goes for defense and rebounding. It isn't purely about scoring it is how you score. I think Thomas and Fultz would give you two guys who want the ball in their hands, and honestly Boston needs more of that right now. Hayward is the same type of player who is going to replace a hustle, defend, run around without the ball and make plays guy. Boston made it to the Conference Finals playing with a lot of guys who hustle, defend, run around and make plays and play a very unselfish style of ball. They beat teams who had more talented individual players. While yes you need guys who can be explosive offensively it rarely works when they are all ball dominant players. The guys in Golden State are not ball dominant players, CLE has Love who has really developed as an off the ball scorer.

I want Boston to add scoring and guys who can create offense I am just not sure I want it to be an on the ball wing player who isn't going to help on the glass and likely is going to hurt the bottom line defensively. You can skin the cat a lot of ways, I just don't sense adding Fultz and Hayward without a move upfront is going to help that much and is more likely to change the identity of the team. I just think this team needs help upfront a lot more than it needs to replace Bradley or Crowder with Hayward.

I think if anything Hayward isn't ball dominant enough. He's the perfect fit next to IT out there. You're also massively underselling his defense. Where this narrative has come from that GH can't defend is beyond me. This team needs more scoring much more than a rebounder. When IT comes out of the game this team grinds to a halt. There were at least 20 games the Celtics should've won in blowout fashion this year but let teams back into games because they can't put the ball in the basket without Isaiah on the court doing it himself or making it easier for our role players. All these wide open shots that Bradley and Crowder bricked on a regular basis this post season are damn near automatic for a player of Haywards caliber. That's what this team needs.

[sully00]

Hayward is the big prize and maybe Griffin. But I think CP3 stays for the max and Griffin does too. Even though I think we need Griffin more. Hayward will end up being a better investment over the life of the contract. Then we can move one of our guards or wings for a Big after Hayward signs.

If we get Hayward this will be huge for IT. He will be able to create his own offense in ISO while also fitting into our system seamlessly.

Between him and Fultz we will have added two elite creators and made our offense more effective and also make it much harder for teams to key on any one guy.

The problem with this approach is you box yourself in. Your the mirror image of the Sixers, nobody is going to want to help you. If your sitting their with Thomas, Smart, Bradley, Fultz, Hayward, Crowder, Brown, after likely having let KO, Amir, and Jerebko walk to make it happen as the GM of another team I know you have to make a move why I am going to want to pay retail to help you?

[Homerclease]

Hayward is the big prize and maybe Griffin. But I think CP3 stays for the max and Griffin does too. Even though I think we need Griffin more. Hayward will end up being a better investment over the life of the contract. Then we can move one of our guards or wings for a Big after Hayward signs.

If we get Hayward this will be huge for IT. He will be able to create his own offense in ISO while also fitting into our system seamlessly.

Between him and Fultz we will have added two elite creators and made our offense more effective and also make it much harder for teams to key on any one guy.

The problem with this approach is you box yourself in. Your the mirror image of the Sixers, nobody is going to want to help you. If your sitting their with Thomas, Smart, Bradley, Fultz, Hayward, Crowder, Brown, after likely having let KO, Amir, and Jerebko walk to make it happen as the GM of another team I know you have to make a move why I am going to want to pay retail to help you?

You aren't boxed in at all. First they have to trade a guy to even fit Hayward at the max and second, Bradley and Smart are free agents next year anyway. They have a chance to upgrade to a far superior player for only money and the reason not to is they might have to trade a role player for 50 cents on the dollar? How does that make any sense??

[Banks2Pierce]

The problem with this approach is you box yourself in. Your the mirror image of the Sixers, nobody is going to want to help you.

Philly's issue was that Okafor is a fraud and they waited until Noel was within a year of RFA and in a brutal Center market to put him on the block. We might have to take a slight haircut on value, but backcourt and wings with small $ are always going to be desirable to the majority of the rest of the league. Centers are a different world of weird value I think.

[Curmudgeon]

Can we skip the Fultz hype, please? It's way too early to call him a sure fire all star or an "elite creator," blah blah blah. Is Andrew Wiggins any of those things? Wiggins been in the league for three years already. Imagine Fultz in 3 years being as good as Wiggins is now. Does that give you a warm and fuzzy feeling about the Celtics' championship hopes?

[Gant]

The Sixers problem was nobody wanted their guys. Noel, because he was about to become a free agent that would get an overpay. Okafor, no one wants at all.

Crowder would be very easy to trade. Smart pretty easy. Bradley even though he's due a contract would likely be more tradable than Noel since he's an established two way player and a top defender at his position coming off a playoff showcase. Brown, the Celtics would want to keep but is easily tradeable.

Other teams will trade with Boston to help themselves.


Get Hayward because he's the healthiest best free agent available. Trade for balance even though it might take as long as one more year to complete the task.

[Homerclease]

Can we skip the Fultz hype, please? It's way too early to call him a sure fire all star or an "elite creator," blah blah blah. Is Andrew Wiggins any of those things? Wiggins been in the league for three years already. Imagine Fultz in 3 years being as good as Wiggins is now. Does that give you a warm and fuzzy feeling about the Celtics' championship hopes?

If you swapped out the name Wiggins for the name Anthony-Towns then what? Why should fans not be excited that the Celtics have the number one overall pick? Because you like Ntilikina?

[Captain_Caveman]

Can we skip the Fultz hype, please? It's way too early to call him a sure fire all star or an "elite creator," blah blah blah. Is Andrew Wiggins any of those things? Wiggins been in the league for three years already. Imagine Fultz in 3 years being as good as Wiggins is now. Does that give you a warm and fuzzy feeling about the Celtics' championship hopes?

Fultz is more likely to be a prospect along the lines of Paul, Wall or Rose.

There are no sure things, even among established stars. It's all probabilities. If we come out of this with adding Hayward and an ELITE PROSPECT like Fultz for the cost of cap room and someone else's draft pick, we should have a parade. Yes, we'd still need to add another big, but hard to imagine a scenario where we get more talent for less cost.

[VeryMuchWoke]

Porter is an easy max RFA. pretty silly to think otherwise. I would be surprised if Wiz didn't match any offer.
as a 23 year old he really put up special numbers. TS% 0.628, BPM 3.9, Ortg 129, Drtg 108, 3pt% 0.434, TRB% 11.1 (very good for a wing)

Porter will be 24-28 (his prime) for his next contract. the above numbers compare positively to our favorite FA target....and his Max would start at 25.25 million. Would be amazing if we could get Porter but IMO he is not obtainable.

For the longest time max contracts were reserved for star players. You can only fit 2-3 max contracts on a team, and generally the goal would be to build a team around 2-3 star players. With recent revisions to the CBA max players can receive an even higher percentage of the cap, so, if anything, fewer players should be worthy of the max. Perception, however, seems to be the opposite.

Do you believe that every decent 3rd or 4th starter is deserving of a max, or do you believe Otto Porter is a future all star? Why?

the way Porter played this year at 23 years old projects as a future all-star... combine stats and exceptional size and length for a wing...yes future all star. also the 0-6 year max is 25% of the cap, so this is quite a bit different than maxing Hayward. (30% of the cap). I believe Porter will get a max offer sheet. Its really not about who deserves what. Its a market and he is the best RFA out there this year.

I don't see it at all. While his efficiency numbers are impressive, that was on very low usage (15%). Even if the shooting is sustainable, and I suspect it isn't, he's not a guy that can get his own shot. This is a guy that we often hid Isaiah Thomas on, and he, save for one game, couldn't take advantage of it.

Could he get maxed? Sure. Joakim Noah got 17M/year, so anything's possible, but whoever signs him to that deal is going to regret it.

[sully00]

Hayward is the big prize and maybe Griffin. But I think CP3 stays for the max and Griffin does too. Even though I think we need Griffin more. Hayward will end up being a better investment over the life of the contract. Then we can move one of our guards or wings for a Big after Hayward signs.

If we get Hayward this will be huge for IT. He will be able to create his own offense in ISO while also fitting into our system seamlessly.

Between him and Fultz we will have added two elite creators and made our offense more effective and also make it much harder for teams to key on any one guy.

The problem with this approach is you box yourself in. Your the mirror image of the Sixers, nobody is going to want to help you. If your sitting their with Thomas, Smart, Bradley, Fultz, Hayward, Crowder, Brown, after likely having let KO, Amir, and Jerebko walk to make it happen as the GM of another team I know you have to make a move why I am going to want to pay retail to help you?

You aren't boxed in at all. First they have to trade a guy to even fit Hayward at the max and second, Bradley and Smart are free agents next year anyway. They have a chance to upgrade to a far superior player for only money and the reason not to is they might have to trade a role player for 50 cents on the dollar? How does that make any sense??

How is Bradley a role player? What role are you expecting Hayward to fill? If this team isn't a year or two away from expecting Fultz to be jacking up 18-20 shots a game we are drafting the wrong guy. Your expecting Hayward to replace either Bradley or Crowder and in either case your going to get the same perimeter shooting, a little more scoring, less rebounding, and take a step back defensively. I think Hayward is a good player but so are Crowder and Bradley. This team needs a PF or C who can score in the post and rebound how does paying Hayward 30 mil dollars a year help that goal?

If your drafting a PF/C it makes sense but for you to have two solid veterans on contracts that facilitate the cap space and you have drafted 3 guards and a SF over the last 4 drafts that are in your rotation and 3 of them top 6 picks why are we using cap space to get a SG/SF?

Now if we are going to swing a trade with Utah that lands us Hayward and Favors maybe we are looking at scenario where your not just getting the slight upgrade but also solving the larger issue in the front court that may be more interesting.

[sully00]

The problem with this approach is you box yourself in. Your the mirror image of the Sixers, nobody is going to want to help you.

Philly's issue was that Okafor is a fraud and they waited until Noel was within a year of RFA and in a brutal Center market to put him on the block. We might have to take a slight haircut on value, but backcourt and wings with small $ are always going to be desirable to the majority of the rest of the league. Centers are a different world of weird value I think.

No they were always on the block they just never could get what they thought was a fair offer for any of them they overrated how much of a trade asset a young unproven big man with health issues would fetch.

I think that Crowder and Brown will be desirable to the rest of the league IT, Bradley, Smart are more of an acquired taste.

[GregB]

Hayward is the big prize and maybe Griffin. But I think CP3 stays for the max and Griffin does too. Even though I think we need Griffin more. Hayward will end up being a better investment over the life of the contract. Then we can move one of our guards or wings for a Big after Hayward signs.

If we get Hayward this will be huge for IT. He will be able to create his own offense in ISO while also fitting into our system seamlessly.

Between him and Fultz we will have added two elite creators and made our offense more effective and also make it much harder for teams to key on any one guy.

The problem with this approach is you box yourself in. Your the mirror image of the Sixers, nobody is going to want to help you. If your sitting their with Thomas, Smart, Bradley, Fultz, Hayward, Crowder, Brown, after likely having let KO, Amir, and Jerebko walk to make it happen as the GM of another team I know you have to make a move why I am going to want to pay retail to help you?

That's why it is imperative that Danny moves someone at the draft. We absolutely have to trade a guard.

Smart and or Rozier are the most like moved. But I could also see Danny targeting a late lottery guy using Avery.

I think Smart and potentially #37 for a pick in the 18-25 range is a simple trade. Then I would take Giles or Jonathan Jeanne from France as a developmental big.

We may lose value wise in the short term. But it certainly alleviates that guard glut and frees up enough cap room that all we have to do is renounce everyone for max cap space.

[Curmudgeon]

Hayward is the big prize and maybe Griffin. But I think CP3 stays for the max and Griffin does too. Even though I think we need Griffin more. Hayward will end up being a better investment over the life of the contract. Then we can move one of our guards or wings for a Big after Hayward signs.

If we get Hayward this will be huge for IT. He will be able to create his own offense in ISO while also fitting into our system seamlessly.

Between him and Fultz we will have added two elite creators and made our offense more effective and also make it much harder for teams to key on any one guy.

The problem with this approach is you box yourself in. Your the mirror image of the Sixers, nobody is going to want to help you. If your sitting their with Thomas, Smart, Bradley, Fultz, Hayward, Crowder, Brown, after likely having let KO, Amir, and Jerebko walk to make it happen as the GM of another team I know you have to make a move why I am going to want to pay retail to help you?

That's why it is imperative that Danny moves someone at the draft. We absolutely have to trade a guard.

Smart and or Rozier are the most like moved. But I could also see Danny targeting a late lottery guy using Avery.

I think Smart and potentially #37 for a pick in the 18-25 range is a simple trade. Then I would take Giles or Jonathan Jeanne from France as a developmental big.

We may lose value wise in the short term. But it certainly alleviates that guard glut and frees up enough cap room that all we have to do is renounce everyone for max cap space.

There is no way I would trade Smart or Rozier for anything close to that. Are you trolling?