Draft Discussion Part 3

[batsmasher]

lol, yeah I referred to his wingspan...

6'11 that moves his feet like he's 6'6 is still damn impressive.

To be fair, wingspan is way more relevant than height in the modern NBA. If there was a 6'3" dude with a 7' wingspan you can bet a coach would spam him at the 4.

Isn't that similar to Ntilikina, though he is 6'5 or so?

If he gets his frame to 220 you can lock him in for some minutes at the 4. PG skills & being guarded by a bigger, slower guy? Stuff dreams are made of.

[Waylay13]

I'm glad someone shares my concerns. I've not flat said no to Jackson, but he scares me the most of all the prospects under discussion here. If there's someone flashing bright "bust" signs, it's him.

For me Jackson screams prefect fit for the Suns. the player that I think is going to be a bust is Ball.

[AtheJ415]

What does Isaac bring to the table that Bender doesn't? He IS slow and hes not that athletic. He also cant score without being spoon fed.

He really isn't that slow. Not for a near 7 footer. And I disagree with his "inability to score unless spoon fed." He scored very efficiently and had a big impact on the game despite not dominating the ball or taking a lot of shots. Plenty of those guys have been super valuable in the NBA. He's an unselfish player who takes high IQ shots and impacts the game defensively, on the glass, as a cutter, and in the open floor. After sitting through years of people on here complaining about "chuckers" in Knight and IT and even according to some Bledsoe, why is this suddenly a problem?

My issue is that some seem to think the fact that Isaac didn't take a lot of shots means he can't score. I don't buy that theory at all. He shoots the ball well and has shown plenty of flashes. He did as well as he could have given how he was not featured at FSU as a scorer.

I get that we already have Bender, but we need help at the position and he does a lot of the things we need. The versatility of playing Bender, Chriss, and Isaac at the same time or in 2 man rotations along the front line is NOT a problem. You need a lot of versatility in today's game. I don't think drafting assigned roles and building against those roles is the way you win now in the NBA. I think you need versatility and shooting more than anything else.

I am open to a few players at 4. Jackson is who I want most, but I'd be fine with Isaac. I'd also be fine with Smith. I very much don't want Tatum there, but I've been wrong before.

If you look at Isaac's weaknesses in more detail, rather than just general, it is much more concerning. He's not fluid in upper body, he often panics with the ball, struggles against pressure D, so scoring without being spoon fed is not going to happen. He's bad shot creator and is a poor playmaker, so slashing/cutting is only option for him atm. Despite having a decent handling (his handling is very overrated imo) and footwork, one of the worst forwards in ast/to ratio. Lot of issues with him on offense shows issues with BBIQ, and issues that should not exist with somebody, who for a long time was a 6'3" guard.
On D he often has problems guarding faster forwards, he can recover a bit due to his length, but lack of athleticism will hurt him much more in the nba. I'm not so high on his Defensive ability in NBA as well, considering even at college level stronger guards were just going past him or thru him. And then there's his whole asthma thing... Sunsbum is right, stay away from him

Couldn't disagree more. Particularly about the BBIQ. He simply didn't have the ball much. You can call his handling, passing, footwork, etc. poor but many disagree, particularly draftexpress. Almost every "weakness" you list here is seen as a strength by them.

[LukasBMW]

Sources close to the process in Minnesota say that Wolves president and head coach Tom Thibodeau wants to see real improvement this season and adding more youth may not be the best way to achieve that. The belief is that if offered the right veteran, the Wolves would move the seven.

The problem with getting real value out of the seventh pick depends on who is going to be on the board with the pick, meaning it’s more likely that a deal with the seventh pick happens on draft night as players start to fall into place.

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/nba-am-teams-seem-open-to-trading-their-picks/

Bledsoe for #7 and Pekovic's corpse.

In a heartbeat.

-WE get 2 of Fultz/Ball/Fox/Jackson/Tatum/Issac/Smith
-WE get max value for Bledsoe
-WE don't have to pay Bledsoe a supermax.
-WE are in the lottery one more year with two potential top 12 picks

This is the way to go!

[WeekapaugGroove]

I love the attitude Jackson could bring to this team. Him and fox are two guys who really play with competitiveness and fire. You need that with a young team and while you can bring some vets in now as leaders eventually if you want to be a good team some od these young guys will need to step up as leaders. Booker has a chance to develop into one. Chriss might have some leadership chops too if he can harness his intensity as he grows up. But adding another guy with both the right attitude and the basketball skill to back it up would be nice.

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[JoRain]

He really isn't that slow. Not for a near 7 footer. And I disagree with his "inability to score unless spoon fed." He scored very efficiently and had a big impact on the game despite not dominating the ball or taking a lot of shots. Plenty of those guys have been super valuable in the NBA. He's an unselfish player who takes high IQ shots and impacts the game defensively, on the glass, as a cutter, and in the open floor. After sitting through years of people on here complaining about "chuckers" in Knight and IT and even according to some Bledsoe, why is this suddenly a problem?

My issue is that some seem to think the fact that Isaac didn't take a lot of shots means he can't score. I don't buy that theory at all. He shoots the ball well and has shown plenty of flashes. He did as well as he could have given how he was not featured at FSU as a scorer.

I get that we already have Bender, but we need help at the position and he does a lot of the things we need. The versatility of playing Bender, Chriss, and Isaac at the same time or in 2 man rotations along the front line is NOT a problem. You need a lot of versatility in today's game. I don't think drafting assigned roles and building against those roles is the way you win now in the NBA. I think you need versatility and shooting more than anything else.

I am open to a few players at 4. Jackson is who I want most, but I'd be fine with Isaac. I'd also be fine with Smith. I very much don't want Tatum there, but I've been wrong before.

If you look at Isaac's weaknesses in more detail, rather than just general, it is much more concerning. He's not fluid in upper body, he often panics with the ball, struggles against pressure D, so scoring without being spoon fed is not going to happen. He's bad shot creator and is a poor playmaker, so slashing/cutting is only option for him atm. Despite having a decent handling (his handling is very overrated imo) and footwork, one of the worst forwards in ast/to ratio. Lot of issues with him on offense shows issues with BBIQ, and issues that should not exist with somebody, who for a long time was a 6'3" guard.
On D he often has problems guarding faster forwards, he can recover a bit due to his length, but lack of athleticism will hurt him much more in the nba. I'm not so high on his Defensive ability in NBA as well, considering even at college level stronger guards were just going past him or thru him. And then there's his whole asthma thing... Sunsbum is right, stay away from him

Couldn't disagree more. Particularly about the BBIQ. He simply didn't have the ball much. You can call his handling, passing, footwork, etc. poor but many disagree, particularly draftexpress. Almost every "weakness" you list here is seen as a strength by them.

Actually not true. Most of the weaknesses I mentioned are also listed by Draftexpress. If you look DX's video of Isaac's weaknesses and look at play analysis there and not just general list at the beginning, you'll see most of the same conclusions I listed

[JoRain]

You're over thinking it. He's not nearly as bad as you think he is with the ball in his hands, his wingspan is fine, he's a top notch athlete. Sure his shooting needs work, just like Tatums defense needs work, or Fox's shot needs work, or Isaacs a lot of things need work, but thats just how the draft is, These are 19-20yo kids, they are far from finished products, they'll get better.

yeah, but here's the thing about getting better, you only go so far as your body allows you to. His wingspan is actually the smaller than any other forward in this draft. Heck, even Justin Jackson has a bigger reach. And prospect of him improving handling or touch around the rim with small hands is really not so promising. I don't know man...

Jimmy Butler has a shorter wingspan than Josh Jackson and he's one of the best defensive wings in the game. I wouldn't worry too much about Jackson's lack of elite measurables. He's still one of the best athletes in the draft with extremely quick and precise hands, and one of the fiercest competitors.

That's true, he does have some great instincts and good quickness. And wingspan alone is not that big of a deal. And what do you mean with precise hands? yes, he does get into passing lanes, but that's more due to his quickness and awareness, not his hands.
But at the same time it's not just wingspan alone that worries me, it's the combination of his limitations - wingspan together with small hands and small frame - that worries me could limit his development.

[JoRain]

Another interesting thought, what if Lakes and Sixers pass on Ball and both Jackson and Ball are available at 4. Who do you take?

[AtheJ415]

If you look at Isaac's weaknesses in more detail, rather than just general, it is much more concerning. He's not fluid in upper body, he often panics with the ball, struggles against pressure D, so scoring without being spoon fed is not going to happen. He's bad shot creator and is a poor playmaker, so slashing/cutting is only option for him atm. Despite having a decent handling (his handling is very overrated imo) and footwork, one of the worst forwards in ast/to ratio. Lot of issues with him on offense shows issues with BBIQ, and issues that should not exist with somebody, who for a long time was a 6'3" guard.
On D he often has problems guarding faster forwards, he can recover a bit due to his length, but lack of athleticism will hurt him much more in the nba. I'm not so high on his Defensive ability in NBA as well, considering even at college level stronger guards were just going past him or thru him. And then there's his whole asthma thing... Sunsbum is right, stay away from him

Couldn't disagree more. Particularly about the BBIQ. He simply didn't have the ball much. You can call his handling, passing, footwork, etc. poor but many disagree, particularly draftexpress. Almost every "weakness" you list here is seen as a strength by them.

Actually not true. Most of the weaknesses I mentioned are also listed by Draftexpress. If you look DX's video of Isaac's weaknesses and look at play analysis there and not just general list at the beginning, you'll see most of the same conclusions I listed

If you look at the strengths videos and the actual play analysis there and not just the general list at the beginning, you'll see they reached the opposite conclusions you listed.

[RaisingArizona]

You love Collins.....I guess I was like that with Frank the Tank.

Sorry Bum, we didn't draft Frank.

Or Buddy haha

Ha ha yup. However, I did flop on that train with Bender.

I was there with you. I wanted Buddy then Chriss. Glad we got Chriss over Buddy in hindsight!

[Mulhollanddrive]

It would be very difficult to see McDonough in a contract year trading Bledsoe for a rookie, I would have so much respect for him if he thought it was the best decision and went for it even though it risked his job outcome at end of season.

I think Isaac has a big bust factor though as I just don't see any decent SFs that move or create worse than him, but I trust McDonough's drafting if he went down that route.

Booker, Warren, Bender, Chriss, Fox, Isaac - You'd only really need to hit on 2 to be the stars for a successful era.

[Mulhollanddrive]

Also DraftExpress moved Marquese Chriss from 13 to 3 in the first week of June last year.

So far they haven't moved anyone that magnitude but with workouts started it's probably going to happen within a few days as they get good mail and like to make a headline.

Maybe Monk to Philadelphia at 3 could be a big one.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Sources close to the process in Minnesota say that Wolves president and head coach Tom Thibodeau wants to see real improvement this season and adding more youth may not be the best way to achieve that. The belief is that if offered the right veteran, the Wolves would move the seven.

The problem with getting real value out of the seventh pick depends on who is going to be on the board with the pick, meaning it’s more likely that a deal with the seventh pick happens on draft night as players start to fall into place.

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/nba-am-teams-seem-open-to-trading-their-picks/

Bledsoe for #7 and Pekovic's corpse.

In a heartbeat.

-WE get 2 of Fultz/Ball/Fox/Jackson/Tatum/Issac/Smith
-WE get max value for Bledsoe
-WE don't have to pay Bledsoe a supermax.
-WE are in the lottery one more year with two potential top 12 picks

This is the way to go!

I couldn't agree more man. This would undoubtedly be the overall best scenario we could hope for trade wise. I've said it before, And I'll say it again, Bledsoe WILL absolutely have to end up getting moved eventually. That is unless we are willing to risk giving him a potential Supermax, Or whatever we can obviously expect Rich Paul to demand!


Add in his already worrisome knee injury issues, And we could really be creating a very uncomfortable position for ourselves. Possibly getting the #7 pick for him, would be a complete coup at this point. Just imagine if you will walking away with Josh Jackson at #4, Then shortly after Nitkilina OR Dennis Smith Jr. and adding one of those two guys beside booker and our young, already talented core.


Then, As I mentioned before, We add one more pick by taking back a contract from Portland and say with number #20 take Jonathan Jeanne. finally, at #32 we take Semi Ojeleye. Now we have a super high potential defensive team, with supreme athletic ability and very tough work ethic. Can you just imagine what we could become?

And just as Lucas BMW already stated, It still puts us in a superb position for a potential top 5 pick in next years' Superloaded draft with star studded franchise Bigs. Next year we take our franchise big and complete our new roster and start competing in 2020. I'm impressed with your astute vision for our teams' projection and potential man. Great post Lucas!

[thamadkant]

He really isn't that slow. Not for a near 7 footer. And I disagree with his "inability to score unless spoon fed." He scored very efficiently and had a big impact on the game despite not dominating the ball or taking a lot of shots. Plenty of those guys have been super valuable in the NBA. He's an unselfish player who takes high IQ shots and impacts the game defensively, on the glass, as a cutter, and in the open floor. After sitting through years of people on here complaining about "chuckers" in Knight and IT and even according to some Bledsoe, why is this suddenly a problem?

My issue is that some seem to think the fact that Isaac didn't take a lot of shots means he can't score. I don't buy that theory at all. He shoots the ball well and has shown plenty of flashes. He did as well as he could have given how he was not featured at FSU as a scorer.

I get that we already have Bender, but we need help at the position and he does a lot of the things we need. The versatility of playing Bender, Chriss, and Isaac at the same time or in 2 man rotations along the front line is NOT a problem. You need a lot of versatility in today's game. I don't think drafting assigned roles and building against those roles is the way you win now in the NBA. I think you need versatility and shooting more than anything else.

I am open to a few players at 4. Jackson is who I want most, but I'd be fine with Isaac. I'd also be fine with Smith. I very much don't want Tatum there, but I've been wrong before.

If you look at Isaac's weaknesses in more detail, rather than just general, it is much more concerning. He's not fluid in upper body, he often panics with the ball, struggles against pressure D, so scoring without being spoon fed is not going to happen. He's bad shot creator and is a poor playmaker, so slashing/cutting is only option for him atm. Despite having a decent handling (his handling is very overrated imo) and footwork, one of the worst forwards in ast/to ratio. Lot of issues with him on offense shows issues with BBIQ, and issues that should not exist with somebody, who for a long time was a 6'3" guard.
On D he often has problems guarding faster forwards, he can recover a bit due to his length, but lack of athleticism will hurt him much more in the nba. I'm not so high on his Defensive ability in NBA as well, considering even at college level stronger guards were just going past him or thru him. And then there's his whole asthma thing... Sunsbum is right, stay away from him

Couldn't disagree more. Particularly about the BBIQ. He simply didn't have the ball much. You can call his handling, passing, footwork, etc. poor but many disagree, particularly draftexpress. Almost every "weakness" you list here is seen as a strength by them.

Yup. Almost everything he said was opposite of draftexpress...i know who to trust.

[Jarlaxle0204]

Watson is very philosophical at times, believing there is more to a player than just stats and analytics.

His style provides balance to that of his GM, as Ryan McDonough tends to focus on the numbers when judging prospects.

“So for me it’s like he’s [McDonough] analytics and I’m more the other part, the feel and the personality and just something I see different,” Watson said.

“I think about it like this, you cannot have music without notes; so the notes are the analytics, and the music is kind of like bringing it all together and that’s kind of how we correlate it.”

For Watson, the Suns don’t need a specific guy, position, or even skill-set.

“We need a Suns personality, Suns characteristics, a guy that’s unselfish, a guy that has that edge where you watch him play and you get motivated, a guy that can make everyone better and, most importantly, someone that wants to grow as a person,” Watson said.

“It’s a lot of details that I missed in that expression, but if you’re a little bit of that with the special things that people believe, the skill and the ability to do certain things on the court. But just that personality, that Suns personality, Suns character, I think you can put that guy into any role."

http://arizonasports.com/story/1133435/suns-coach-watson-looks-to-connect-with-potential-draft-picks/

I think that Josh Jackson is the guy that Watson wants in the draft. Being from Kansas he probably has a lot of deep info about him.

This sounds like either Josh Jackson or Fox to me which is good because those are the two I'm highest on. They both seem to care a lot about winning and those types of players are infectious (especially for a young team still trying to find themselves).

I, like others here, would prefer to trade Bledsoe. It's not that I dislike him. I actually am very impressed at how he's matured and taken on a leadership role and seems to be a better teammate/happier. I also think he's a very good player. I just worry a lot about the contract he'll command, his injury issues, and him being slightly older than the main core. His value will probably never be higher than it is right now. I wouldn't hate to keep him but I would definitely prefer to trade him if we could come away with one of the point guards in the lotto (along with Jackson or whatever wing we go with).

I think it's the smart move for our timeline and our future but I'm not sure the front office feels that way.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

Watson is very philosophical at times, believing there is more to a player than just stats and analytics.

His style provides balance to that of his GM, as Ryan McDonough tends to focus on the numbers when judging prospects.

“So for me it’s like he’s [McDonough] analytics and I’m more the other part, the feel and the personality and just something I see different,” Watson said.

“I think about it like this, you cannot have music without notes; so the notes are the analytics, and the music is kind of like bringing it all together and that’s kind of how we correlate it.”

For Watson, the Suns don’t need a specific guy, position, or even skill-set.

“We need a Suns personality, Suns characteristics, a guy that’s unselfish, a guy that has that edge where you watch him play and you get motivated, a guy that can make everyone better and, most importantly, someone that wants to grow as a person,” Watson said.

“It’s a lot of details that I missed in that expression, but if you’re a little bit of that with the special things that people believe, the skill and the ability to do certain things on the court. But just that personality, that Suns personality, Suns character, I think you can put that guy into any role."

http://arizonasports.com/story/1133435/suns-coach-watson-looks-to-connect-with-potential-draft-picks/

I think that Josh Jackson is the guy that Watson wants in the draft. Being from Kansas he probably has a lot of deep info about him.

This sounds like either Josh Jackson or Fox to me which is good because those are the two I'm highest on. They both seem to care a lot about winning and those types of players are infectious (especially for a young team still trying to find themselves).

I, like others here, would prefer to trade Bledsoe. It's not that I dislike him. I actually am very impressed at how he's matured and taken on a leadership role and seems to be a better teammate/happier. I also think he's a very good player. I just worry a lot about the contract he'll command, his injury issues, and him being slightly older than the main core. His value will probably never be higher than it is right now. I wouldn't hate to keep him but I would definitely prefer to trade him if we could come away with one of the point guards in the lotto (along with Jackson or whatever wing we go with).

I think it's the smart move for our timeline and our future but I'm not sure the front office feels that way.

I think it's a tough question. I think it's important that we start being competitive, and you need vets to do that, but if we could be competitive starting Ulis in Bledsoe's place, I'd prefer that.

I always thought Bledsoe was a buy-low, sell-high move. Well, now's our chance. Fox falling to us would be a good excuse. If we can get the #7 for him (which seems reasonable), we could take Collins. The net effect would be turning Dudley's expiring contract from several years ago and a second rounder into the rights to 8 years of a top center prospect.

Even if Jackson falls to us, I'd like to make such a move, if it's possible. I wouldn't do it if I didn't love the prsopect we were getting back, but I happen to think this kid's worth the gamble.

[bwgood77]

I don't see why Minnesota would trade 7 for Bledsoe. It has been mentioned that Thibs would prefer a vet rather than a raw rookie, but the one position he does have a vet who makes a big difference when he is on the floor and is a better defender than Bledsoe, is Rubio.

He probably wants a veteran defensive wing. He probably wants to trade the 7 and maybe a player for Butler, or a poor man's Butler even.

[TheFire]

I don't see why Minnesota would trade 7 for Bledsoe. It has been mentioned that Thibs would prefer a vet rather than a raw rookie, but the one position he does have a vet who makes a big difference when he is on the floor and is a better defender than Bledsoe, is Rubio.

He probably wants a veteran defensive wing. He probably wants to trade the 7 and maybe a player for Butler, or a poor man's Butler even.

Our best bet is trading Bledsoe to the Pistons for the 12th and hoping Ntilikina falls that far if we decide to add a PG, assuming we go with a wing at #4. If the Kings somehow end up with Tatum at #5, I can see them moving their #10 for Bledsoe, but they may just decide to draft Ntilikina, as they have enough bigs, and won't need Markkaken or Collins.

Regardless, I find it very hard for the Suns to come out with an elite wing AND PG in the this draft. This draft is much better than last year's and teams are going to be a lot less reluctant to trade their picks unless it's for an established star like Butler or George.

[WeekapaugGroove]

I don't see why Minnesota would trade 7 for Bledsoe. It has been mentioned that Thibs would prefer a vet rather than a raw rookie, but the one position he does have a vet who makes a big difference when he is on the floor and is a better defender than Bledsoe, is Rubio.

He probably wants a veteran defensive wing. He probably wants to trade the 7 and maybe a player for Butler, or a poor man's Butler even.

Our best bet is trading Bledsoe to the Pistons for the 12th and hoping Ntilikina falls that far if we decide to add a PG, assuming we go with a wing at #4. If the Kings somehow end up with Tatum at #5, I can see them moving their #10 for Bledsoe, but they may just decide to draft Ntilikina, as they have enough bigs, and won't need Markkaken or Collins.

Regardless, I find it very hard for the Suns to come out with an elite wing AND PG in the this draft. This draft is much better than last year's and teams are going to be a lot less reluctant to trade their picks unless it's for an established star like Butler or George.

To me the best and most realistic scenario to get both a pg and wing is taking the pg at 4 and then trading Bledsoe for 12 and grabbing OG.

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[LukasBMW]

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/nba-am-teams-seem-open-to-trading-their-picks/

Bledsoe for #7 and Pekovic's corpse.

In a heartbeat.

-WE get 2 of Fultz/Ball/Fox/Jackson/Tatum/Issac/Smith
-WE get max value for Bledsoe
-WE don't have to pay Bledsoe a supermax.
-WE are in the lottery one more year with two potential top 12 picks

This is the way to go!

I couldn't agree more man. This would undoubtedly be the overall best scenario we could hope for trade wise. I've said it before, And I'll say it again, Bledsoe WILL absolutely have to end up getting moved eventually. That is unless we are willing to risk giving him a potential Supermax, Or whatever we can obviously expect Rich Paul to demand!


Add in his already worrisome knee injury issues, And we could really be creating a very uncomfortable position for ourselves. Possibly getting the #7 pick for him, would be a complete coup at this point. Just imagine if you will walking away with Josh Jackson at #4, Then shortly after Nitkilina OR Dennis Smith Jr. and adding one of those two guys beside booker and our young, already talented core.


Then, As I mentioned before, We add one more pick by taking back a contract from Portland and say with number #20 take Jonathan Jeanne. finally, at #32 we take Semi Ojeleye. Now we have a super high potential defensive team, with supreme athletic ability and very tough work ethic. Can you just imagine what we could become?

And just as Lucas BMW already stated, It still puts us in a superb position for a potential top 5 pick in next years' Superloaded draft with star studded franchise Bigs. Next year we take our franchise big and complete our new roster and start competing in 2020. I'm impressed with your astute vision for our teams' projection and potential man. Great post Lucas!

Boom! That's the recipe for us to become the most dangerous young team in the league and overtake Minnesota/Philly/Denver in young talent.

As for the Portland pick, apparently they want to dump salary with it. BUT, if we trade Bledsoe, we will have room to take back a overpaid guy like Crabb.

Thing is, Crabb isn't chopped liver. He could be our 6th man. And he's still young. Meanwhile, we get a chance to take Bam.

Ulis/#4
Booker/Crabb
TJ/#7
Chriss/Bender
Tyson/#Portland-pick (Bam?)/Sauce

We let Len walk. Perhaps we try to salvage Knight's value and give him some minutes before turning over the keys to Ulis and our #4 pick?

Barbosa and Dudley round out the roster as vet leaders.

Not to mention we can use our 2 second round picks to draft and stash in the D-league.

That's maximizing potential. The biggest problem comes in 2018 when we have two top 10 picks and may be running low on positions to draft for if all our young guys are looking good.