Robinson Cano vs. Dustin Pedroia

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Post#21 » by cmaff051 » Mon Jul 23, 2007 12:38 am

Basketball Jesus wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Hunh? No. BABIP is a rather telling stat when it comes to predicting whether a seemingly high batting average in a small sample size is more design than luck/randomness. Case in point: Robbie Cano 2006.


Why don't you prove it instead of making a baseless accusation? Get his LD%, FB% and GB% and correlate it with his BABIP. If you knew anything about the BABIP formula, you would have done this. Of course, you don't, you're just one of those people who throw BABIP around with having no idea how it is calculated.
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Post#22 » by cmaff051 » Mon Jul 23, 2007 12:39 am

Boston's Future wrote:Cano is on fire right now. He has more power, but in the end i think the averages will cancel out. Since Pedrioa has better defense and will be on a playoff team, I find him more valueable.


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Why don't you wait until October before saying this. I remember last year when Boston choked down the stretch in August. They were even better last year at this point in the year.
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Post#23 » by cmaff051 » Mon Jul 23, 2007 12:41 am

Basketball Jesus wrote:High, as in relation to normal batting average? Yes. League BABIP tends to be around .300 or so, whereas league batting average is somewhat less. But, in context, not every good hitter is going to have a high BABIP, mostly because BABIP is as close to a ranomness stat as can be because it only accounts for balls in play. You'll notice certain trends among great hitters (like the slap-hitting Ichiro or Manny or Jeter) that they have generally higher average BABIP because, you know, they're great hitters and because there's enough of a sample size (i.e. multi-year) that you can make the logical assumption they're good hitters. Plus, and this is where you come in, there's enough visual evidence to point at them being great hitter.


But for guys like Cano that have seemingly great seasons, like his 2006, BABIP can be useful because 1. you know by looking at him that's he's not a once-in-a-generation hitter 2. that the high batting average was due more to a rather "lucky" (again random) collection of hits in-play. It wasn't due to speed, like Ichiro, or exceptional plate discipline like Manny or Bonds, or whomever. He just got a lot of hits in play last season and hits, by and large are more a product of luck than skill.


*For reference, Adam Dunn has a below-average BABIP, mostly because all his value (positive and negative) comes in the form of HRs/walks/strikeouts...things not measured in BABIP.


BABIP of batters is not the same thing as BABIP of pitchers, so try again. You fail.

As 34Celtic said, if you hit more line drives, you'll have a higher BABIP. There is no league average BABIP for hitters, you make your own by how many linedrives you hit.
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Post#24 » by nykgeneralmanager » Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:35 am

Cano has turned into a gold glove caliber 2B, and I hadn't realized he went 56 games without an error until he made one in the 9th inning of today's blowout.

For some reason, people refuse to give Cano any recognition defensively. He has the range, the arm, and he turns the double play as smoothly as almost any other 2B out there. An underrated part of an IF game is that he goes back on pop-ups extremely well. I expect him to win a few GG in his career. Although that is a useless award, it at least shows that people are recognizing that you are good defensively. Hopefully Cano's time will come in that regard, because he has worked hard at it and it is paying off big time.
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Post#25 » by Basketball Jesus » Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:54 am

Why don't you prove it instead of making a baseless accusation? Get his LD%, FB% and GB% and correlate it with his BABIP. If you knew anything about the BABIP formula, you would have done this. Of course, you don't, you're just one of those people who throw BABIP around with having no idea how it is calculated.



Meh, if you
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Post#26 » by Basketball Jesus » Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:09 am

Also this:

And a couple of articles later, we found that line drives are particularly well-correlated with BABIP, or Batting Average on Balls in Play. As a general formula, BABIP equals the percent of batted balls that are line drives (LD%) plus .120.


Cano's BABIP-LD%

2005: .320-.206 = .114
2006: .363-.199 = .164
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Post#27 » by 34Celtic » Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:11 am

The thing is Pedroia seems to need to give 200% to get the same results as Cano. I'm not knocking him as a player, but Cano is clearly more talented.
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Post#28 » by cmaff051 » Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:13 am

Basketball Jesus wrote:Also this:

And a couple of articles later, we found that line drives are particularly well-correlated with BABIP, or Batting Average on Balls in Play. As a general formula, BABIP equals the percent of batted balls that are line drives (LD%) plus .120.


Cano's BABIP-LD%

2005: .320-.206 = .114
2006: .363-.199 = .164


He was certainly lucky in 2006, but to say that he isn't a perennial .300 caliber hitter is blasphemy.
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Post#29 » by Basketball Jesus » Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:16 am

Who the hell said that? Stop trying to hide behind fictitious arguments. All I said is that 2006 was a pretty lucky season and that people shouldn't expect that level of production. He's more than capable of hitting .300, just not in the mid-threes consistently.
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Post#30 » by cmaff051 » Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:22 am

Basketball Jesus wrote:Who the hell said that? Stop trying to hide behind fictitious arguments. All I said is that 2006 was a pretty lucky season and that people shouldn't expect that level of production. He's more than capable of hitting .300, just not in the mid-threes consistently.


I don't think anybody is expecting that level of production from him, so try again. We expect 2006 SLG numbers from him, but definitely not his batting average.
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Post#31 » by Dirty Water » Mon Jul 23, 2007 7:40 pm

34Celtic wrote:The thing is Pedroia seems to need to give 200% to get the same results as Cano. I'm not knocking him as a player, but Cano is clearly more talented.
Lol why? because he's short?
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Post#32 » by The Rondo Show » Tue Jul 24, 2007 2:07 am

Ghost of the Garden wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Lol why? because he's short?
No, don't be silly. It is because he is short AND white; one or the other and you can still be very talented, but when you have both...it means you aren't that talented and need to give that EXTRA 100% to be an ok baseball player.

It's called the David Eckstein syndrome.
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Post#33 » by mets87 » Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:26 am

except david eckstein is a league average player and pedroia is better than eckstein
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Post#34 » by Dirty Water » Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:57 pm

mets87 wrote:except david eckstein is a league average player and pedroia is better than eckstein
you know its funny what a half season can do. all winter i was hearing that pedroia was "david eckstein without the intangibles". well i guess that stereotype is pretty much busted.
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Post#35 » by GYBE » Tue Jul 24, 2007 7:06 pm

Cano is more athletic, Pedroia is gritty.

Cano is flashy, Pedroia plays the game the right way.

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Post#36 » by mets87 » Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:14 pm

intangibles. hahahaha
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Post#37 » by Bleeding Green » Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:11 am

Pedroia has all the tangibles, though.

David Murphy summed it up best.

"Pedroia thinks he's yet to see a pitcher that he thinks is any good," Murphy said. "That's his secret. He's 5-foot-6, balding, can't run, can't throw, he's weak, and it's true. But he believes that he's as strong and as big and as fast as anybody."
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Post#38 » by The Rondo Show » Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:41 pm

Bleeding Green wrote:Pedroia has all the tangibles, though.

David Murphy summed it up best.

"Pedroia thinks he's yet to see a pitcher that he thinks is any good," Murphy said. "That's his secret. He's 5-foot-6, balding, can't run, can't throw, he's weak, and it's true. But he believes that he's as strong and as big and as fast as anybody."
Pretty funny. That's actually a quote from Pat Murphy, Pedroia's coach at ASU.
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Post#39 » by SARGO127 » Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:11 pm

Boston's Future wrote:This is a tough one. Both guys are future All-Stars for many years to come. For a good season both guys will hit well over .300, and eventually i think both guys will be able to hit 20 home runs. Both guys don't really steal bases, but i like Pedrioa's overall speed better. As for defense, Peds blows Cano out of the water. I think Cano really isn't that great of a defensive second baseman, while Pedrioa has a lot of range, a quick throwing release, and a good arm. Offensivly its a toss up, but Pedrioa gets the edge with his glove


You know nothing. Cano is VERY good defensively.
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Post#40 » by SARGO127 » Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:14 pm

Boston's Future wrote:Cano is on fire right now. He has more power, but in the end i think the averages will cancel out. Since Pedrioa has better defense and will be on a playoff team, I find him more valueable.


haha. Your are the type of fans that give Red Sox fans a bad name.

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