2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV

Negrodamus · Post #261 » by **Negrodamus** » Fri Jun 2, 2017 1:36 am

And, to be fair to my recent punching bag, Josh Jackson was 42% from three, 57% from 2pt FG, but still 60% FT on only 3 attempts in his final 7 games (same sample size as Fox).

PLO · Post #262 » by **PLO** » Fri Jun 2, 2017 2:39 am

Fox has some tremendous skills but you can see why some have a lot lower than others. He's going to have a very difficult time in the league in the first few years and not only because of his shooting; he's not going to be able to score like a dsj or Fultz close to the rim given his weight and the buffeting he got in college. Hopefully for him he can put some muscle on that wirey frame quickly

broseph13 · Post #263 » by **broseph13** » Fri Jun 2, 2017 3:13 am

PLO wrote:Fox has some tremendous skills but you can see why some have a lot lower than others. He's going to have a very difficult time in the league in the first few years and not only because of his shooting; he's not going to be able to score like a dsj or Fultz close to the rim given his weight and the buffeting he got in college. Hopefully for him he can put some muscle on that wirey frame quickly

Iverson weighed 160-165 at 5'11/6'0 and did whatever he wanted on the court throughout his entire career. That said, weight and muscle as a perimeter player are overrated.

Fox will do just fine at 6'3 170.

PLO · Post #264 » by **PLO** » Fri Jun 2, 2017 3:37 am

broseph13 wrote:
PLO wrote:Fox has some tremendous skills but you can see why some have a lot lower than others. He's going to have a very difficult time in the league in the first few years and not only because of his shooting; he's not going to be able to score like a dsj or Fultz close to the rim given his weight and the buffeting he got in college. Hopefully for him he can put some muscle on that wirey frame quickly

Iverson weighed 160-165 at 5'11/6'0 and did whatever he wanted on the court throughout his entire career. That said, weight and muscle as a perimeter player are overrated.

Fox will do just fine at 6'3 170.

There's always an exception that proves the rule, the elite PGs in the current league are very strong and don't get buffeted of their shot or in other areas. Fox is some years away from being strong enough to be a starter, whereas a dsj or fultz will at least not be knocked around as much as Fox will be

Unbreakable99 · Post #265 » by **Unbreakable99** » Fri Jun 2, 2017 3:39 am

Bryan Colangelo is watching the first game of the finals saying to himself no way Josh Jackson can give us enough fire power to beat the Warriors. Lol. Colangelo might draft Isaac to provide the defense to stop the stretch 4 but also shoot the 3. Assuming Ball and Fultz are gone I think the 3 spot is narrowed down to 3 players. Jackson Isaac and DSJ. BC needs defenders and shooters at ALL positions. Isaac might be the guy.

Negrodamus · Post #266 » by **Negrodamus** » Fri Jun 2, 2017 3:51 am

PLO wrote:Fox has some tremendous skills but you can see why some have a lot lower than others. He's going to have a very difficult time in the league in the first few years and not only because of his shooting; he's not going to be able to score like a dsj or Fultz close to the rim given his weight and the buffeting he got in college. Hopefully for him he can put some muscle on that wirey frame quickly

Well he did get to the line 15 times and scored 13 FGs against an future NBA front line in UCLA. He also did pretty well against UNC the first time (foul trouble the second time). For the most part, yea, he's skinny and needs to put on weight. Next year would be a redshirt year with him off the bench, essentially. But despite his physical shortcomings at this stage (still, only 19), he was able to finish against length pretty remarkably.

SelfishPlayer · Post #267 » by **SelfishPlayer** » Fri Jun 2, 2017 3:55 am

PLO wrote:
broseph13 wrote:
PLO wrote:Fox has some tremendous skills but you can see why some have a lot lower than others. He's going to have a very difficult time in the league in the first few years and not only because of his shooting; he's not going to be able to score like a dsj or Fultz close to the rim given his weight and the buffeting he got in college. Hopefully for him he can put some muscle on that wirey frame quickly

Iverson weighed 160-165 at 5'11/6'0 and did whatever he wanted on the court throughout his entire career. That said, weight and muscle as a perimeter player are overrated.

Fox will do just fine at 6'3 170.

There's always an exception that proves the rule, the elite PGs in the current league are very strong and don't get buffeted of their shot or in other areas. Fox is some years away from being strong enough to be a starter, whereas a dsj or fultz will at least not be knocked around as much as Fox will be

Kenny Anderson #2 overall pick 168lbs. If Fox is breathed on while attempting a shot he will go to the free throw line.

Tony Parker 172 lbs when drafted.

Brandon Jennings 170lbs when drafted, started every game and dropped 55 in a game as a rookie.

Mik317 · Post #268 » by **Mik317** » Fri Jun 2, 2017 4:23 am

finishing is also about body control too

Ericb5 · Post #269 » by **Ericb5** » Fri Jun 2, 2017 4:40 am

I think that Fox is 4th for me now. He and Smith are pretty equal I guess at 4 and 5.

I'm still team Jackson. If Ball or Fultz slips to 3, I'm good with either of them too.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

GabeCerebro · Post #270 » by **GabeCerebro** » Fri Jun 2, 2017 4:56 am

Unbreakable99 wrote:Bryan Colangelo is watching the first game of the finals saying to himself no way Josh Jackson can give us enough fire power to beat the Warriors. Lol. Colangelo might draft Isaac to provide the defense to stop the stretch 4 but also shoot the 3. Assuming Ball and Fultz are gone I think the 3 spot is narrowed down to 3 players. Jackson Isaac and DSJ. BC needs defenders and shooters at ALL positions. Isaac might be the guy.

I'm a big Monk hater... And even I wouldn't say he's outside the top 3 of our consideration at #3. Plus, you simply cannot justify taking a solidified role player such as Issac at #3. It isn't happening.

LongLiveHinkie · Post #271 » by **LongLiveHinkie** » Fri Jun 2, 2017 6:14 am

I don't think Colangelo is watching the Finals and thinking anything. I'm not even sure he's watching the Finals period. When your collar popping game is that crazy, your vision is obstructed

PLO · Post #272 » by **PLO** » Fri Jun 2, 2017 9:06 am

Negrodamus wrote:Well he did get to the line 15 times and scored 13 FGs against an future NBA front line in UCLA. He also did pretty well against UNC the first time (foul trouble the second time). For the most part, yea, he's skinny and needs to put on weight. Next year would be a redshirt year with him off the bench, essentially. But despite his physical shortcomings at this stage (still, only 19), he was able to finish against length pretty remarkably.

I'm not sure you can look at the UCLA game as representative of what he's going to face in the NBA - no team is going to defend him like that at the next level - if you look at that footage the way he was defended was pretty stupid (what guard with that speed doesn't like to face no-switch defending/back-peddling bigs?), given his elite characteristic is getting to the rim repeatedly. Its pretty basic coaching to take away a players elite characteristic, its why you see James Harden forced onto his right all the time in the NBA and why its very difficult to defend against players who have more than one elite trait. Basically Fox's UCLA games are just outliers - you can't draft someone at number 3 in the draft on the basis of these games and disregard the rest of his season.

SelfishPlayer wrote:Kenny Anderson #2 overall pick 168lbs. If Fox is breathed on while attempting a shot he will go to the free throw line.

Tony Parker 172 lbs when drafted.

Brandon Jennings 170lbs when drafted, started every game and dropped 55 in a game as a rookie.

I think it was JZ Mazlish who first equated Fox with Parker - I'm not really that comfortable with the comparison given Parker is a future HOFer and likely a one off. Yes, Parker was also an atrocious shooter starting his career but c'mon, we're talking about a guy with freakish touch around the rim and who developed an all-time mid-range game against someone who hasn't even started his career. Yes, Fox is now a better athlete than Parker probably ever was but we're forgetting how many tools peak-Parker had getting to and finishing at the rim. If we're going to compare Parker to anyone in this draft it should be Fultz, not Fox - the latter who has outlier athleticism which means he hasn't developed the same finishing craft Fultz has had to develop by necessity as being undersized for most of his junior career (the same type of craft Tony Parker had in spades).

Mik317 wrote:finishing is also about body control too

Its going to be pretty hard to have good body control when you're going to be knocked on your backside given the lack of strength Fox has and besides Fox's body control amounts to being outlier athletic, especially in terms of speed, as mentioned above. The comps Fox draws with John Wall are about as absurd as the ones with Parker, yes both Wall and Fox are quick, but Wall is a brute and Fox is a feather in terms of the NBA.

You people all make fair points however shouldn't we be entertaining the possibility Fox is going to be a Dennis Schroder more than a Tony Parker and that he might find it real difficult putting weight on that stringish frame? Especially when there's one Dennis Smith Jnr there on the board? I think Fox has some tremendous skills as I've mentioned on here repeatedly - but he can't shoot and is basically a bad fit for us because of that; obviously I'm much more in favour of DSJ at three than Fox. No disrespect to you who think otherwise.

SelfishPlayer · Post #273 » by **SelfishPlayer** » Fri Jun 2, 2017 9:39 am

Is there still a reputable sports media outlet that has DSJ currently ranked ahead of Fox?

Fox and Ball are the two greatest NBA prospects in the draft IMO...

PLO · Post #274 » by **PLO** » Fri Jun 2, 2017 10:27 am

SelfishPlayer wrote:Is there still a reputable sports media outlet that has DSJ currently ranked ahead of Fox?

Fox and Ball are the two greatest NBA prospects in the draft IMO...

To answer your question probably not, but even if most have Fox ahead of DSJ in a vacuum you can't ignore what we actually need in terms of shooting (and DSJ is light years ahead of where Fox is in terms of that). BPA is all well and good until you end up with situations like a Noel/Okafor/Embiid situation in terms of roster composition.

This draft is quite divisive in terms of how the majority see who the best players are after Fultz - and even he has his detractors (I'm assuming you are to an extent) - given there are a mix of players who could go third or could go ninth in this draft I really would like us to be thinking quite a bit about fit for us. So that means Fox and Jackson are no noes for me.

SelfishPlayer · Post #275 » by **SelfishPlayer** » Fri Jun 2, 2017 10:37 am

PLO wrote:
SelfishPlayer wrote:Is there still a reputable sports media outlet that has DSJ currently ranked ahead of Fox?

Fox and Ball are the two greatest NBA prospects in the draft IMO...

To answer your question probably not, but even if most have Fox ahead of DSJ in a vacuum you can't ignore what we actually need in terms of shooting (and DSJ is light years ahead of where Fox is in terms of that). BPA is all well and good until you end up with situations like a Noel/Okafor/Embiid situation in terms of roster composition.

This draft is quite divisive in terms of how the majority see who the best players are after Fultz - and even he has his detractors (I'm assuming you are to an extent) - given there are a mix of players who could go third or could go ninth in this draft I really would like us to be thinking quite a bit about fit for us. So that means Fox and Jackson are no noes for me.

I think that you never adress an NBA 3 point shooting need based upon what a prospect shot at the college 3 point line. Apples and oranges...

smittybanton · Post #276 » by **smittybanton** » Fri Jun 2, 2017 12:41 pm

LloydFree wrote:
Unbreakable99 wrote:
smittybanton wrote:

Love it. If the Lakers pass on Ball he's all ours.

Ball won't be there at #3. There going to be false rumors from now until the draft about the Lakers liking Fox more than Ball. I hope nobody holds their breath waiting for the Lakers to pass on Ball to take Fox. That's not going to happen. The Lakers are going to keep leaking that nonsense, so the Celtics won't get any ideas about taking Ball and holding him for ransom.

What about the fact that Fox might be better than Ball?

LloydFree · Post #277 » by **LloydFree** » Fri Jun 2, 2017 1:10 pm

smittybanton wrote:
LloydFree wrote:
Unbreakable99 wrote:
Love it. If the Lakers pass on Ball he's all ours.

Ball won't be there at #3. There going to be false rumors from now until the draft about the Lakers liking Fox more than Ball. I hope nobody holds their breath waiting for the Lakers to pass on Ball to take Fox. That's not going to happen. The Lakers are going to keep leaking that nonsense, so the Celtics won't get any ideas about taking Ball and holding him for ransom.

What about the fact that Fox might be better than Ball?

Eventually, he may be just that. Ball has some Bust potential in his game. But Fox is going to take a lot of time, just like Dennis Schroeder and Mike Conley. (Honestly, I don't think Fox is anywhere near as good or advanced as Mike Conley at the same stage, but that seems to be the ceiling others have given him) Fox is too weak physically, isn't a good enough shooter and isn't an advanced enough distributer to get any time early on. It will be two years minimum, before Fox is anything in the NBA. The Lakers and other teams know this. I think there is zero chance Fox goes in the top 3 picks.
These teams (Lakers and 76ers) are just using his name as misdirection so other teams can't lock in on who they want, IMO.

Kobblehead · Post #278 » by **Kobblehead** » Fri Jun 2, 2017 1:16 pm

Man, I'm loving the position we're in. The probability of either Ball or Jackson being on the board at #3 is extremely high.

SelfishPlayer · Post #279 » by **SelfishPlayer** » Fri Jun 2, 2017 1:20 pm

LloydFree wrote:
smittybanton wrote:
LloydFree wrote:Ball won't be there at #3. There going to be false rumors from now until the draft about the Lakers liking Fox more than Ball. I hope nobody holds their breath waiting for the Lakers to pass on Ball to take Fox. That's not going to happen. The Lakers are going to keep leaking that nonsense, so the Celtics won't get any ideas about taking Ball and holding him for ransom.

What about the fact that Fox might be better than Ball?

Eventually, he may be just that. Ball has some Bust potential in his game. But Fox is going to take a lot of time, just like Dennis Schroeder and Mike Conley. (Honestly, I don't think Fox is anywhere near as good or advanced as Mike Conley at the same stage, but that seems to be the ceiling others have given him) Fox is too weak physically, isn't a good enough shooter and isn't an advanced enough distributer to get any time early on. It will be two years minimum, before Fox is anything in the NBA. The Lakers and other teams know this. I think there is zero chance Fox goes in the top 3 picks.
These teams (Lakers and 76efs) are just using his name as misdirection so other teams can't lock in on who they want, IMO.

Conley and Fox have nothing in common as prospects. Conley got drafted under an old school perception of the value of a true floor general. People at the time didn't even see what all the excitement over him was about. Fox is in conversation with the Westbrook's and Wall's of the world while Conley was compared to floor generals of the time.

LloydFree · Post #280 » by **LloydFree** » Fri Jun 2, 2017 1:31 pm

Kobblehead wrote:Man, I'm loving the position we're in. The probability of either Ball or Jackson being on the board at #3 is extremely high.

I love being in the #3 spot also, if everything holds. I'm a bit concerned of the possibility of a Boston trade, specifically to Chicago. Paxon has certain check boxes on the type of players he drafts every year. The biggest being that he takes players from big winning programs. I could see him trading Butler for #1 and Crowder. Then taking Jackson or Ball, my 1a and 1b.