Markelle Fultz

[nolang1]

Doesn't seem that useful since Fultz doesn't have much shake to him while Wade could get separation all day. Fultz has that jump shooter's game, Wade was a straight guts-of-the-defense slasher.

You don't *need* as much shake when defenses aren't playing off you and going under every screen because of your shooting ability, but I think something like this qualifies as a decent amount of shake:




Also Wade was technically a junior when he entered the draft so I don't know how much ability he had at age 18 to get separation.

That gif is proof of concern. Fultz had to use a spin move to get by a college big man. That reminds me of Evan Turner in college. The athletes only get better on the next level, will Fultz's moves get better? How much better can you get than what he did in that gif?

He had to use a spin move because there was yet another help defender behind the first big man that came to help. Fultz is currently the least athletic he will be (barring injury) at any point in the next 10 years. That and playing with teammates who can make a shot so there's only 1 help defender rather than 2-3 to beat on a play will help him immensely.

[SelfishPlayer]

You don't *need* as much shake when defenses aren't playing off you and going under every screen because of your shooting ability, but I think something like this qualifies as a decent amount of shake:




Also Wade was technically a junior when he entered the draft so I don't know how much ability he had at age 18 to get separation.

That gif is proof of concern. Fultz had to use a spin move to get by a college big man. That reminds me of Evan Turner in college. The athletes only get better on the next level, will Fultz's moves get better? How much better can you get than what he did in that gif?

He had to use a spin move because there was yet another help defender behind the first big man that came to help. Fultz is currently the least athletic he will be (barring injury) at any point in the next 10 years. That and playing with teammates who can make a shot so there's only 1 help defender rather than 2-3 to beat on a play will help him immensely.

To be clear, I don't believe that his spin was reactionary. I believe that was his intention before penetrating. Someone like John Wall or Westbrook would have done a simple in out dribble and finished with a dunk. Fultz had to go too deep within his bag of tricks to score against college defenders IMO. It's a positive when it looks easy for a prospect.

[reanimator]

Good footwork is now a negative

[SelfishPlayer]

Good footwork is now a negative

Million dollar moves to score on 25 cent defenders is a negative...

[HotelVitale]

Fultz is basically a poormans wade with better shot but slightly less athleticsm

Doesn't seem that useful since Fultz doesn't have much shake to him while Wade could get separation all day. Fultz has that jump shooter's game, Wade was a straight guts-of-the-defense slasher.

You don't *need* as much shake when defenses aren't playing off you and going under every screen because of your shooting ability, but I think something like this qualifies as a decent amount of shake.Also Wade was technically a junior when he entered the draft so I don't know how much ability he had at age 18 to get separation.

No need to be defensive--they just play very differently. Wade played lightning fast and used his body while slashing in pretty incredible ways, and Fultz plays slowly and deliberately. Fultz could learn to play more quickly but there's no real comparison now. Fultz is a much better pull-up shooter than Wade was at his age, so I'm not trying to say he sucks and Wade rules.

Also, the gif shows he has a spin move, and I'd also add that he clearly has some good open-court athleticism. But he doesn't have an advanced slashing game--take note of the first part of the play, when Fultz slowly dribbles right and then spins into the baseline and barely gets a shot off over CSU Fullerton's defense. That's not gonna work often for a NBA slasher, who has to keep the dribble alive or get to an ideal spot with jump stops and eurosteps, and Fultz has a ways to go to have something like that game (I think he'll at least master some slashing moves in the NBA).

[reanimator]

Good footwork is now a negative

Million dollar moves to score on 25 cent defenders is a negative...

Literally makes no sense. Footwork will always translate. Guys like D Rose and Westbrook who simply out-athlete'd comp degrade much faster and are not what I'm looking for longterm for my franchise handler.

[SelfishPlayer]

Wade is an isolation player, Fultz is a pick and roll guy. Wade much like Iverson and Kobe could beat a single defender every single time so no need for the pick.

[Slartibartfast]

Good footwork is now a negative

Million dollar moves to score on 25 cent defenders is a negative...

Fultz has plenty of cheap moves too. He regularly gets separation with crossovers and hesitation moves.

[E-Balla]

Fultz is basically a poormans wade with better shot but slightly less athleticsm

Wade is arguably the best slasher ever and Fultz can't get to the rim without a pick in college. They're nothing alike at all.

[reanimator]

Fultz is not the athlete that Wade is though some of that is due to age but similar physical profiles, footwork and pace as handlers.

Where did this idea that Fultz can't ISO come from? He definitely can ISO just has a propensity to look for his pull-up rather than get all the way to the rim, though some of that was spacing issues, too.

[SelfishPlayer]

ex NBA player and I agree, this is why I have Fox and Ball ranked ahead of Fultz.

Watch on YouTube

[GimmeDat]

ex NBA player and I agree, this is why I have Fox and Ball ranked ahead of Fultz.

Watch on YouTube

I don't see how what he said is either positive or negative and how that could affect your rankings.. positions are blurring in the modern NBA. It's worth asking yourself 'what does being in position A versus position B mean actually mean?'.

Harden, which was used as the example, plays with a PG out on the floor, like a Beverly, or another smaller combo guard. In a traditional sense, this may mean that you would still define him as the shooting guard, but in a practical sense, Harden is playing the PG role whilst Beverly, Lou Will or whoever else, is playing the SG role.

That's where the term lead guard comes in to play for me, and why what position you want to define Fultz as doesn't matter to me.

[Bucks2585]

Does anyone think Brandon Roy is a good comparison instead of Wade? The SG type who is a primary ball handler, not the freak athlete of a top guy, but still good, has a shooters game, that type of thing?

[SelfishPlayer]

ex NBA player and I agree, this is why I have Fox and Ball ranked ahead of Fultz.

Watch on YouTube

I don't see how what he said is either positive or negative and how that could affect your rankings.. positions are blurring in the modern NBA. It's worth asking yourself 'what does being in position A versus position B mean actually mean?'.

Harden, which was used as the example, plays with a PG out on the floor, like a Beverly, or another smaller combo guard. In a traditional sense, this may mean that you would still define him as the shooting guard, but in a practical sense, Harden is playing the PG role whilst Beverly, Lou Will or whoever else, is playing the SG role.

That's where the term lead guard comes in to play for me, and why what position you want to define Fultz as doesn't matter to me.

DLo is a shooting guard too and I knew that was the case before he was drafted, the Lakers are just now coming to that conclusion. When Harden or DLo are your lead guards, you are bound to running a pick & roll or "ball stopper" heavy offensive. See how Harden reverted into a ball stopper in crunch time against the Spurs at the end of the game? A genuine PG should be able to get wherever he wants on the floor to initiate offense without the need of a pick. I know Fultz can not do that, and I knew that Evan Turner and DLo could not do that back when people called them PGs as prospects. So now what are we left with in Fultz? He's a slow ball dominant SG without great size, people thought that Evan Turner was the next D Wade, if you are drafting Fultz because you believe him to be the next Harden or D Wade then do your thing buddy... He looks like the next DLo or maybe CJ McCollum to me. I'm taking De'aaron Fox (Tony Parker?) and Lonzo Ball (Jason Kidd?) over that all day!

[Slartibartfast]

Does anyone think Brandon Roy is a good comparison instead of Wade? The SG type who is a primary ball handler, not the freak athlete of a top guy, but still good, has a shooters game, that type of thing?

The crossovers, ambidexterity and shiftiness he plays with are very reminiscent of Roy, but I don't understand the reluctance to label Fultz a PG. Kyrie Irving, Damian Lillard, Isaiah Thomas, Kemba Walker, Steph Curry - all these guys shoot as much or more than Fultz did at Washington.

And Fultz has considerably more natural PG instincts than conversions like Westbrook, Harden and Bledsoe did at the same age. It's not just endless drive and kick with him - he's got good vision and creativity as a passer and the unselfishness to let others go to work. Remains to be seen how good his game management is, but so many early indications point to excellent PG skills.

I think pushing him to SG would be bad for him - his size advantage at PG is much more crucial on both ends than his quickness/agility advantage at the 2. Like John Wall, he'll be able to post up PGs or drive right into them and pull-up without being bothered. He'll also be able to see right over them and pass around them from the perimeter. Defensively, he might be lack some in quickness at the 1, but his monster length and size is still a big plus - when combined with legit size at the 2/3 his team will be able to overwhelm with perimeter size.

[Slartibartfast]

ex NBA player and I agree, this is why I have Fox and Ball ranked ahead of Fultz.

Watch on YouTube

I don't see how what he said is either positive or negative and how that could affect your rankings.. positions are blurring in the modern NBA. It's worth asking yourself 'what does being in position A versus position B mean actually mean?'.

Harden, which was used as the example, plays with a PG out on the floor, like a Beverly, or another smaller combo guard. In a traditional sense, this may mean that you would still define him as the shooting guard, but in a practical sense, Harden is playing the PG role whilst Beverly, Lou Will or whoever else, is playing the SG role.

That's where the term lead guard comes in to play for me, and why what position you want to define Fultz as doesn't matter to me.

DLo is a shooting guard too and I knew that was the case before he was drafted, the Lakers are just now coming to that conclusion. When Harden or DLo are your lead guards, you are bound to running a pick & roll or "ball stopper" heavy offensive. See how Harden reverted into a ball stopper in crunch time against the Spurs at the end of the game? A genuine PG should be able to get wherever he wants on the floor to initiate offense without the need of a pick. I know Fultz can not do that, and I knew that Evan Turner and DLo could not do that back when people called them PGs as prospects. So now what are we left with in Fultz? He's a slow ball dominant SG without great size, people thought that Evan Turner was the next D Wade, if you are drafting Fultz because you believe him to be the next Harden or D Wade then do your thing buddy... He looks like the next DLo or maybe CJ McCollum to me. I'm taking De'aaron Fox (Tony Parker?) and Lonzo Ball (Jason Kidd?) over that all day!

You are all over the place here. Who runs pick and roll or dominated the ball more than CP3? Is he not a real PG? Phoenix era Steve Nash relied on picks to do just about everything.

DLo's deficiencies as a PG aren't because he's pick dependent (which you are massively overstating for Fultz by the way) - they're because he can't consistently get into the paint with a pick (and when he does, he's not dynamic enough of a threat to consistently disorient the D). And he had the same problems in college. Fultz gets into the paint with comparative ease - gets lower on his drives, has better speed, more confidence and more ambidexterity/unpredictability.

As for Evan Turner, that less athletic Wade comp would be more concerning if Fultz hadn't already demonstrated a significantly superior PG-grade handle (his A:TO trounces each of Turner's OSU seasons) and a vastly superior long-range J - took Fultz 25 games to hit just about as many 3s as Turner hit in 100. And it's not like Turner hasn't been able to get in the paint in the pros or distribute. He just can't shoot beyond 18 feet - that combined with his weaker-than-he-thinks handle sunk his scoring game, which even as a junior as OSU was less prolific and diversified than Fultz's.

[SelfishPlayer]

I don't see how what he said is either positive or negative and how that could affect your rankings.. positions are blurring in the modern NBA. It's worth asking yourself 'what does being in position A versus position B mean actually mean?'.

Harden, which was used as the example, plays with a PG out on the floor, like a Beverly, or another smaller combo guard. In a traditional sense, this may mean that you would still define him as the shooting guard, but in a practical sense, Harden is playing the PG role whilst Beverly, Lou Will or whoever else, is playing the SG role.

That's where the term lead guard comes in to play for me, and why what position you want to define Fultz as doesn't matter to me.

DLo is a shooting guard too and I knew that was the case before he was drafted, the Lakers are just now coming to that conclusion. When Harden or DLo are your lead guards, you are bound to running a pick & roll or "ball stopper" heavy offensive. See how Harden reverted into a ball stopper in crunch time against the Spurs at the end of the game? A genuine PG should be able to get wherever he wants on the floor to initiate offense without the need of a pick. I know Fultz can not do that, and I knew that Evan Turner and DLo could not do that back when people called them PGs as prospects. So now what are we left with in Fultz? He's a slow ball dominant SG without great size, people thought that Evan Turner was the next D Wade, if you are drafting Fultz because you believe him to be the next Harden or D Wade then do your thing buddy... He looks like the next DLo or maybe CJ McCollum to me. I'm taking De'aaron Fox (Tony Parker?) and Lonzo Ball (Jason Kidd?) over that all day!

You are all over the place here. Who runs pick and roll or dominated the ball more than CP3? Is he not a real PG? Phoenix era Steve Nash relied on picks to do just about everything.

DLo's deficiencies as a PG aren't because he's pick dependent (which you are massively overstating for Fultz by the way) - they're because he can't consistently get into the paint with a pick (and when he does, he's not dynamic enough of a threat to consistently disorient the D). And he had the same problems in college. Fultz gets into the paint with comparative ease - gets lower on his drives, has better speed, more confidence and more ambidexterity/unpredictability.

As for Evan Turner, that less athletic Wade comp would be more concerning if Fultz hadn't already demonstrated a significantly superior PG-grade handle (his A:TO trounces each of Turner's OSU seasons) and a vastly superior long-range J - took Fultz 25 games to hit just about as many 3s as Turner hit in 100. And it's not like Turner hasn't been able to get in the paint in the pros or distribute. He just can't shoot beyond 18 feet - that combined with his weaker-than-he-thinks handle sunk his scoring game, which even as a junior as OSU was less prolific and diversified than Fultz's.

Fultz uses picks heavily to get into the paint in college, while a real NBA PG prospect like De'aaron Fox doesn't.

[Slartibartfast]

DLo is a shooting guard too and I knew that was the case before he was drafted, the Lakers are just now coming to that conclusion. When Harden or DLo are your lead guards, you are bound to running a pick & roll or "ball stopper" heavy offensive. See how Harden reverted into a ball stopper in crunch time against the Spurs at the end of the game? A genuine PG should be able to get wherever he wants on the floor to initiate offense without the need of a pick. I know Fultz can not do that, and I knew that Evan Turner and DLo could not do that back when people called them PGs as prospects. So now what are we left with in Fultz? He's a slow ball dominant SG without great size, people thought that Evan Turner was the next D Wade, if you are drafting Fultz because you believe him to be the next Harden or D Wade then do your thing buddy... He looks like the next DLo or maybe CJ McCollum to me. I'm taking De'aaron Fox (Tony Parker?) and Lonzo Ball (Jason Kidd?) over that all day!

You are all over the place here. Who runs pick and roll or dominated the ball more than CP3? Is he not a real PG? Phoenix era Steve Nash relied on picks to do just about everything.

DLo's deficiencies as a PG aren't because he's pick dependent (which you are massively overstating for Fultz by the way) - they're because he can't consistently get into the paint with a pick (and when he does, he's not dynamic enough of a threat to consistently disorient the D). And he had the same problems in college. Fultz gets into the paint with comparative ease - gets lower on his drives, has better speed, more confidence and more ambidexterity/unpredictability.

As for Evan Turner, that less athletic Wade comp would be more concerning if Fultz hadn't already demonstrated a significantly superior PG-grade handle (his A:TO trounces each of Turner's OSU seasons) and a vastly superior long-range J - took Fultz 25 games to hit just about as many 3s as Turner hit in 100. And it's not like Turner hasn't been able to get in the paint in the pros or distribute. He just can't shoot beyond 18 feet - that combined with his weaker-than-he-thinks handle sunk his scoring game, which even as a junior as OSU was less prolific and diversified than Fultz's.

Fultz uses picks heavily to get into the paint in college, while a real NBA PG prospect like De'aaron Fox doesn't.

Doesn't use picks heavily to get into the paint in college is a nonsensical way of categorizing real NBA PGs.

[SelfishPlayer]

You are all over the place here. Who runs pick and roll or dominated the ball more than CP3? Is he not a real PG? Phoenix era Steve Nash relied on picks to do just about everything.

DLo's deficiencies as a PG aren't because he's pick dependent (which you are massively overstating for Fultz by the way) - they're because he can't consistently get into the paint with a pick (and when he does, he's not dynamic enough of a threat to consistently disorient the D). And he had the same problems in college. Fultz gets into the paint with comparative ease - gets lower on his drives, has better speed, more confidence and more ambidexterity/unpredictability.

As for Evan Turner, that less athletic Wade comp would be more concerning if Fultz hadn't already demonstrated a significantly superior PG-grade handle (his A:TO trounces each of Turner's OSU seasons) and a vastly superior long-range J - took Fultz 25 games to hit just about as many 3s as Turner hit in 100. And it's not like Turner hasn't been able to get in the paint in the pros or distribute. He just can't shoot beyond 18 feet - that combined with his weaker-than-he-thinks handle sunk his scoring game, which even as a junior as OSU was less prolific and diversified than Fultz's.

Fultz uses picks heavily to get into the paint in college, while a real NBA PG prospect like De'aaron Fox doesn't.

Doesn't use picks heavily to get into the paint in college is a nonsensical way of categorizing real NBA PGs.

It's an indication of a player that can't get anywhere on the floor that he wants, which historically is something that good NBA PGs can do. If he needs picks to score 20+ ppg against horrible college players, then is he really worth the #1 pick? No...

[Slartibartfast]

Fultz uses picks heavily to get into the paint in college, while a real NBA PG prospect like De'aaron Fox doesn't.

Doesn't use picks heavily to get into the paint in college is a nonsensical way of categorizing real NBA PGs.

It's an indication of a player that can't get anywhere on the floor that he wants, which historically is something that good NBA PGs can do. If he needs picks to score 20+ ppg against horrible college players, then is he really worth the #1 pick? No...

No it's actually not. Fox has some great handles and fantastic speed/burst but his inability to shoot from range definitely impacts his ability to get where he wants in the halfcourt.

Picks are an ever-present part of the game. It's bizarre that you continue to view Fultz proficiency in using them as a negative. Steve Nash and Steph Curry won MVPs on the back of picks. (James Harden is a leading candidate to win another as the most PNR-prolific guard in the league). Neither Nash nor Curry were/are Fox-style blow-by guys in one-on-one settings. And Fultz is bigger, more athletic and more explosive than both.

Are you convinced that Fultz won't be able to turn the corner or split the PNR against NBA PNR D? That he won't be able to attack bigs on switches? That his jumpshot won't translate to NBA 3 range? While I'd disagree, those at least would be arguments.