2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV

LongLiveHinkie · Post #381 » by **LongLiveHinkie** » Sun Jun 4, 2017 4:29 am

I went through the "game tape circuit" today one final time to see if I still have Jackson as my top guy at 3. I do. I never moved Jackson from my top guy at 3, but I did waver a little because of his jumper. Here are the reasons I decided to keep him at 3.

I think he is top notch or close to top notch on every other area besides shooting. He can create his own shot, which is incredibly important for a wing, handles the ball well, has moves like crossovers, step-backs, etc. He is athletic enough to add that to his moves, which will give him the ability to create his own shot rather consistently in the NBA. I think he has really good finishing potential, can finish with both hands and can drive left and drive right. Plus he seems to have a killer instict, which I love in guys. Gives me more confidence he can develop his shot.

I think he has really good defensive potential, will be able to get out and run with our roster, has good court vision, and is a good passer. I like how he doesn't give up on plays and crashes the glass, likes to rip down offensive rebounds. Will help get us 2nd chance points.

I think he has both a high floor and a high ceiling and even if he never develops a jumper, he will be a good slasher and scorer getting you 17/6/5 on average. If he maximizes his potential and can get that jumper consistent, he can be a 23/6/5 guy.

I wouldn't say I'm confident in his jumper, but he did shoot 37% Call it a small sample size all you want, but it's better than him shooting 24% like Fox did. With that funky ass form, he still found a way to hit them consistently down the stretch. That's a sign for hope. Correct his mechanics a bit and that percentage could be league average, where I think Fox's issue is more a touch thing and that is less of a skill you can develop than mechanics.

So at 3, I'm sticking with Josh Jackson. Get the guy with the tools and let's ride.

Unbreakable99 · Post #382 » by **Unbreakable99** » Sun Jun 4, 2017 4:36 am

LongLiveHinkie wrote:I went through the "game tape circuit" today one final time to see if I still have Jackson as my top guy at 3. I do. I never moved Jackson from my top guy at 3, but I did waver a little because of his jumper. Here are the reasons I decided to keep him at 3.

I think he is top notch or close to top notch on every other area besides shooting. He can create his own shot, which is incredibly important for a wing, handles the ball well, has moves like crossovers, step-backs, etc. He is athletic enough to add that to his moves, which will give him the ability to create his own shot rather consistently in the NBA. I think he has really good finishing potential, can finish with both hands and can drive left and drive right. Plus he seems to have a killer instict, which I love in guys. Gives me more confidence he can develop his shot.

I think he has really good defensive potential, will be able to get out and run with our roster, has good court vision, and is a good passer. I like how he doesn't give up on plays and crashes the glass, likes to rip down offensive rebounds. Will help get us 2nd chance points.

I think he has both a high floor and a high ceiling and even if he never develops a jumper, he will be a good slasher and scorer getting you 17/6/5 on average. If he maximizes his potential and can get that jumper consistent, he can be a 23/6/5 guy.

I wouldn't say I'm confident in his jumper, but he did shoot 37% Call it a small sample size all you want, but it's better than him shooting 24% like Fox did. With that funky ass form, he still found a way to hit them consistently down the stretch. That's a sign for hope. Correct his mechanics a bit and that percentage could be league average, where I think Fox's issue is more a touch thing and that is less of a skill you can develop than mechanics.

So at 3, I'm sticking with Josh Jackson. Get the guy with the tools and let's ride.

Who are your top two again?

PLO · Post #383 » by **PLO** » Sun Jun 4, 2017 4:39 am

HankTheTank wrote:
PLO wrote:
HankTheTank wrote:
^ This. The worst thing BC could do is try to get cute here. I really like Isaac's potential, and DSJ could easily end up one of the best 3 players in this draft, but the player flaws and risk get greater as you drop down. Jackson and Ball are the surest things in this draft.

And yet they aren't. One doesn't even have the requisite skills for the position he's going to be drafted for, the other's main calling card (defense) will be badly exposed vs NBA level competition and both of them have dodgy shots to boot. The two safest picks in this draft are Fultz and Jayson Tatum, closely followed by Jon Isaac. Ball is much like Lauri Markannen in that they have one elite attribute, its a wonder to me why both aren't rated similarly in this draft; at least we know Markannen's attribute is going to transfer much more readily to the NBA, Ball's vision could just well be a product of his own very obvious limitations and he might not get to use it much anyway given he's likely a SG at the next level. In other words Markannen's shooting is a true outlier; Ball's passing will only just be good in the NBA (when you factor in the limited situations in which he'll get to use it and given he's a complete non-threat in other areas of his game). If Markannen is rated outside the top 10 I really can't see any reason why Ball shouldn't be as well.

I disagree if we're talking chance at being exceptional. Analyzing the top prospects, I look for which tool could carry them to being elite. Ball's bbiq, vision and passing are extraordinary. Kidd, Simmons, Bird like. Jackson's athleticism for a 6'8 wing is rare. If his shot continues to improve --like it did second half of the year-- %50 3pt and 63.75% FT-- he'll be a star. I've yet to see any experts recognize his improvement there. Instead, they fidget over his FT%, which is why we might just be lucky enough to get him at 3.

Isaac, you'll get no argument from me, I may take him at 4 despite our obvious need, but he is raw in every way. He likely needs to be a 4, can he put on mass and strength? Does he have the mentality to take over a game?

Fultz, I think he is good at everything, but I'm not certain he'll be a star. Which tool will make Fultz elite? Taytum, same thing. Both have a high floor for me, so in the sense that they're unlikely to bust they are safe picks to me.

Jackson's athleticism isn't "rare", at least for the NBA, and his measurables are only average; he only looks like a rare specimen in college footage because he's playing against college power forwards. If you look at the matchups against players who have actual NBA athleticism Jackson gets repeatedly cooked. You people think we're getting a potential Jimmy Butler but its more likely we'd be getting Richard Jefferson in Josh Jackson.

LongLiveHinkie · Post #384 » by **LongLiveHinkie** » Sun Jun 4, 2017 4:40 am

Unbreakable99 wrote:
LongLiveHinkie wrote:I went through the "game tape circuit" today one final time to see if I still have Jackson as my top guy at 3. I do. I never moved Jackson from my top guy at 3, but I did waver a little because of his jumper. Here are the reasons I decided to keep him at 3.

I think he is top notch or close to top notch on every other area besides shooting. He can create his own shot, which is incredibly important for a wing, handles the ball well, has moves like crossovers, step-backs, etc. He is athletic enough to add that to his moves, which will give him the ability to create his own shot rather consistently in the NBA. I think he has really good finishing potential, can finish with both hands and can drive left and drive right. Plus he seems to have a killer instict, which I love in guys. Gives me more confidence he can develop his shot.

I think he has really good defensive potential, will be able to get out and run with our roster, has good court vision, and is a good passer. I like how he doesn't give up on plays and crashes the glass, likes to rip down offensive rebounds. Will help get us 2nd chance points.

I think he has both a high floor and a high ceiling and even if he never develops a jumper, he will be a good slasher and scorer getting you 17/6/5 on average. If he maximizes his potential and can get that jumper consistent, he can be a 23/6/5 guy.

I wouldn't say I'm confident in his jumper, but he did shoot 37% Call it a small sample size all you want, but it's better than him shooting 24% like Fox did. With that funky ass form, he still found a way to hit them consistently down the stretch. That's a sign for hope. Correct his mechanics a bit and that percentage could be league average, where I think Fox's issue is more a touch thing and that is less of a skill you can develop than mechanics.

So at 3, I'm sticking with Josh Jackson. Get the guy with the tools and let's ride.

Who are your top two again?

Fultz then Jackson. Fultz and Jackson have been my 1-2 since January and despite some consideration, I have them staying put. I don't see it changing in the next 2 weeks, barring something unforeseen. Can't watch more of the top 8 guys than I already have.

Unbreakable99 · Post #385 » by **Unbreakable99** » Sun Jun 4, 2017 4:42 am

LongLiveHinkie wrote:
Unbreakable99 wrote:
LongLiveHinkie wrote:I went through the "game tape circuit" today one final time to see if I still have Jackson as my top guy at 3. I do. I never moved Jackson from my top guy at 3, but I did waver a little because of his jumper. Here are the reasons I decided to keep him at 3.

I think he is top notch or close to top notch on every other area besides shooting. He can create his own shot, which is incredibly important for a wing, handles the ball well, has moves like crossovers, step-backs, etc. He is athletic enough to add that to his moves, which will give him the ability to create his own shot rather consistently in the NBA. I think he has really good finishing potential, can finish with both hands and can drive left and drive right. Plus he seems to have a killer instict, which I love in guys. Gives me more confidence he can develop his shot.

I think he has really good defensive potential, will be able to get out and run with our roster, has good court vision, and is a good passer. I like how he doesn't give up on plays and crashes the glass, likes to rip down offensive rebounds. Will help get us 2nd chance points.

I think he has both a high floor and a high ceiling and even if he never develops a jumper, he will be a good slasher and scorer getting you 17/6/5 on average. If he maximizes his potential and can get that jumper consistent, he can be a 23/6/5 guy.

I wouldn't say I'm confident in his jumper, but he did shoot 37% Call it a small sample size all you want, but it's better than him shooting 24% like Fox did. With that funky ass form, he still found a way to hit them consistently down the stretch. That's a sign for hope. Correct his mechanics a bit and that percentage could be league average, where I think Fox's issue is more a touch thing and that is less of a skill you can develop than mechanics.

So at 3, I'm sticking with Josh Jackson. Get the guy with the tools and let's ride.

Who are your top two again?

Fultz then Jackson. Fultz and Jackson have been my 1-2 since January and despite some consideration, I have them staying put. I don't see it changing in the next 2 weeks, barring something unforeseen. Can't watch more of the top 8 guys than I already have.

And after them how do you round out the top 5?

LongLiveHinkie · Post #386 » by **LongLiveHinkie** » Sun Jun 4, 2017 4:46 am

Unbreakable99 wrote:
LongLiveHinkie wrote:
Unbreakable99 wrote:
Who are your top two again?

Fultz then Jackson. Fultz and Jackson have been my 1-2 since January and despite some consideration, I have them staying put. I don't see it changing in the next 2 weeks, barring something unforeseen. Can't watch more of the top 8 guys than I already have.

And after them how do you round out the top 5?

Fultz
Jackson
Smith
Isaac
Fox

I'm not a big fan of Ball. I'll be one of the few not happy if he falls to 3 and we take him. Tatum is the one I go back and forth on. Sometimes I have him in the top 5 and sometimes I don't. I think he is a ready scorer, but has limited upside. I wish I could judge his athleticism better. I don't have a great feel for it.

SelfishPlayer · Post #387 » by **SelfishPlayer** » Sun Jun 4, 2017 5:14 am

Ball and Fox are the best athletes in the draft. If Big Ben is to be a "quarterback" like his NFL namesake, then you need to get him some speedy wide receivers that can take the top off of the defense once he rebounds the basketball. Ball and Fox are those two guys. I am beginning to expect Danny Ainge to draft Fox #1 overall. Me and him were on the same page with the Jaylen Brown pick.

timLH · Post #388 » by **timLH** » Sun Jun 4, 2017 5:27 am

Now DX has Tatum at 5 and DSJ at 10 (behind Monk and Ntilikina). No idea why DSJ falls so much.
My top 5 is Fultz, Jackson, Ball, DSJ, Fox.
If I am offered 5 & 10 for 3, (assuming it is Isaac & DSJ for Jackson), it is a tough choice...

timLH · Post #389 » by **timLH** » Sun Jun 4, 2017 5:30 am

SelfishPlayer wrote:Ball and Fox are the best athletes in the draft. If Big Ben is to be a "quarterback" like his NFL namesake, then you need to get him some speedy wide receivers that can take the top off of the defense once he rebounds the basketball. Ball and Fox are those two guys. I am beginning to expect Danny Ainge to draft Fox #1 overall. Me and him were on the same page with the Jaylen Brown pick.

Ball is the best athlete? Sorry I just can't see that.

SelfishPlayer · Post #390 » by **SelfishPlayer** » Sun Jun 4, 2017 5:44 am

timLH wrote:
SelfishPlayer wrote:Ball and Fox are the best athletes in the draft. If Big Ben is to be a "quarterback" like his NFL namesake, then you need to get him some speedy wide receivers that can take the top off of the defense once he rebounds the basketball. Ball and Fox are those two guys. I am beginning to expect Danny Ainge to draft Fox #1 overall. Me and him were on the same page with the Jaylen Brown pick.

Ball is the best athlete? Sorry I just can't see that.

I've noticed that from the posts of some people on this website that they think that he's some sort of average athlete and someone that interviewed Lavar Ball was surprised when he said that Lonzo had over a 42" vertical. It's true that he doesn't have much wiggle, but he's as fast as Jason Kidd but can leap like Russell Westbrook. It's odd seeing the people that diminish his athleticism. I've never seen that done with an athletic prospect before Lonzo Ball. People usually into the draft get it right when it comes to athletic people being athletic. I've seen marginal athletes get diminished but not serious athletes like Lonzo, where it should be clear to everyone that he is an elite athlete.

Mik317 · Post #391 » by **Mik317** » Sun Jun 4, 2017 6:30 am

Ball has some nice speed and some bounce...I do think he gets overlooked a bit as an athlete actually. His handle is more of the reason he had issues getting to the rim and by folks more so than his athletic abilities

SelfishPlayer · Post #392 » by **SelfishPlayer** » Sun Jun 4, 2017 6:49 am

Frank Mason looks and plays like a Jameer Nelson clone.

Watch on YouTube

LongLiveHinkie · Post #393 » by **LongLiveHinkie** » Sun Jun 4, 2017 6:52 am

Ball is a solid athlete, but he's not a better athlete than Jackson or Smith, c'mon. In terms of pure leaping ability, he isn't a better athlete than Monk either.,

SelfishPlayer · Post #394 » by **SelfishPlayer** » Sun Jun 4, 2017 6:59 am

Josh Jackson isn't much of an athlete, he's just above average for the position. He is physically a healthy Chandler Parsons. They are literally the same height, length, and IMO the same speed and leaping ability. They both had similar TOV% and poor free throw shooting in college. Chandler Parsons, Steven Jackson, and Josh Jackson are the same guy IMO, but with respect Josh Jackson hasn't done anything in the NBA yet where he could fall completely on his face. Jackson will have to work very very very hard to be an NBA player worthy of the #3 overall pick.

Mik317 · Post #395 » by **Mik317** » Sun Jun 4, 2017 7:31 am

a Healthy Chandler Parsons is a pretty good player. His entire issue is his health. Stephen Jackson was also a really good player.

like wut

SelfishPlayer · Post #396 » by **SelfishPlayer** » Sun Jun 4, 2017 7:41 am

Ball (Kidd) and Fox (Tony Parker) have ceilings that are above just "really good."

JojoSlimbiid · Post #397 » by **JojoSlimbiid** » Sun Jun 4, 2017 8:40 am

Yikes comparing the athleticism of Jackson to Parsons. I don't think it's close, Jackson is the much better athlete, not sure how that comparison even sparked in your brain bruh.

SelfishPlayer · Post #398 » by **SelfishPlayer** » Sun Jun 4, 2017 8:50 am

There are people that have called Lonzo Ball unathletic. I know my perception is accurate, the rest of you people, who knows...

They both execute the same exact dunks, put backs and oops off of cuts without the ball, never anything out the triple threat off the dribble. Above average NBA athletes with great height and lackluster length.

Watch on YouTube

LongLiveHinkie · Post #399 » by **LongLiveHinkie** » Sun Jun 4, 2017 9:13 am

Stop being such a contrarian!!!

Bum Adebayo · Post #400 » by **Bum Adebayo** » Sun Jun 4, 2017 11:04 am

I don't consider a player athletic based on his vertical, a guy can have a 40" vertical but in traffic can't really jump, many players have a good vertical but they can only jump high in space. Also the best athletes IMO are those with the combo of explosiveness+strength, it is not the same if a guy can jump but at 170lbs instead of one who does it at 200lbs. Guys like Deandre Jordan are special because of this.