Markelle Fultz

[mattao313]

Fultz, Kris Dunn, DLo, Reggie Jackson, without a pick they scare no NBA defenders...

What does this matter? Reggie was top 10 drives and shot 50% of his shots within 10 feet of the rim in 15-16 and Fultz looks to have more moves and just as good of a handle than him. The NBA is a pnr league.

Sorry, never heard of a drive stat...

http://stats.nba.com/players/drives/#!?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=DRIVES&dir=1

[SelfishPlayer]

What does this matter? Reggie was top 10 drives and shot 50% of his shots within 10 feet of the rim in 15-16 and Fultz looks to have more moves and just as good of a handle than him. The NBA is a pnr league.

Sorry, never heard of a drive stat...

http://stats.nba.com/players/drives/#!?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=DRIVES&dir=1

Where do you get that he was top 10 in drives?

[Slartibartfast]

Without a pick? He can't. You obviously didn't watch him. He gets to the rim as well as DLo did and not only did I see that but its a statistical fact. There's a reason he's the worst of the projected first round PGs in isolation ppp and it isn't that he's good at driving. Lonzo had him locked down and his man defense is a weakness. And his first step is basura.

And its funny you're playing the "you're only saying that because you won't get him" card because I've said this all year and I said nothing about him as an overall player. Just that Dwyane Wade should smack fire outta anyone trying his life with that terrible comparison.

What stat are you referring to? Because the data from this article - https://fansided.com/2017/05/19/markelle-fultz-incredible-upside-finisher/ - has him almost doubling up DLo in unassisted rim attempts per 40.

He used a lot more possessions. If someone gets the ball 10 times and takes 2 shots at rim are they worse than getting to the rim than someone taking 4 shots in 20 possessions? As a percentage of their possessions they're about even with Fultz having a slight lead. And that's not just taking isolation into account like I am. Fultz is great in the PNR. His ability to work without a pick is horrible tho.

Meanwhile his first step doesn't look great but there's not much on tape - he doesn't do much triple threat. But that's not the only way to drive the ball. Ridiculous to say so in fact when we've seen guys like Nash live in the paint with meh burst. Or how about prime D-Will - dude did just about all of his damage with side to side crossovers and hesitation moves to freeze guys afraid of his deadly pull-up.

Nash was quick when younger. Yeah 32 year old Nash needed picks he was an old man. Chris Paul needs picks now too. Not only is that completely irrelevant but you're also comparing being unable to get by defenders in the NBA to not being able to get by them in COLLEGE. Keep in mind we're talking about this in context to a comparison I've consistently seen to Dwyane **** Wade here. The best slasher ever vs a guy that needs picks to get to the paint. And he doesn't have Deron or Kyrie's crossover either. He's the worst PG in the draft when it comes to operating without a pick. Period. This happens every year where a player comes out with a reputation nothing like they play and people eat it up. The same people saying Fultz plays like D. Wade were trying to convince me Jabari wasn't athletic as hell a few years back.

You talk about Fultz like he's Kyle Anderson slow. It's ridiculous. The guy isn't as a fast as a freak like Fox, but his hesitation moves wouldn't work if he didn't have some burst. There's a spectrum of guard speed. You've got sloths like Anderson on one end and speedsters like John Wall on the other but there's a lot in between. Fultz is somewhere in the middle in terms of acceleration, slightly above average in the open court (long strides) and well above average in terms of side to side quickness (his spin moves are as electric as John Wall's).

I talk about him like he's DLo slow because he is. Fultz has below average speed on drives. Full court when he gets the strides going he's good. He's a player that needs some momentum behind him. On Madden he'd have a 90 speed with a 60 acceleration. There's a reason he was so trash 1 on 1 and a guy that actually has average side to side speed like Lonzo kept him in a ball and chain. Fultz has his other strengths that make him in my top tier along with Ball, Smith, and Jackson but his ability to drive ain't one. At all.

As for Roy, they are different. A bigger guy. More wing isos. Probably a better first step but you are way overrating how important it (and his vertical) was to his game. Did a lot of his halfcourt creation working out of PNR and/or using hang dribbles and cross overs to wrong foot his defender and then used his ambidexterity to drive by them. Once he got into the paint he was a shifty below the rim player other than a few statement dunks with plenty of time to wind up.

And you are gushing over a 25 year old Roy while crapping all over an 18 year old Fultz. Fultz just obliterates Roy at 18-19. Roy's range was more like Evan Turner's at that age and he was a turnover machine - far less efficient as a passer and scorer than Fultz.
Some healthy skepticism is warranted but you are venturing into mindless hater territory here.

Yes because when I said "I still think its a decent comparison but there's no way a BETTER Brandon Roy should be the comparison" I was clearly being a mindless hater. GTFO with that bs. You just said what I said (that calling him a better Roy is absurd) but I'm a hater for it? Whatever. This is almost as crazy as when I got sig quoted for saying Hezonja would be a bust.

When you say Fultz is "horrible without a pick," that his first step is "basura" and that Lonzo "locked him down" and "kept him in a ball and chain" you are being hyperbolic to a hater degree.

Plenty of legit critiques of Fultz - you are just massively overstating your case.

It's not unreasonable to project that Fultz will be able to use some of the same techniques he uses to split defenses after the pick to break guys down in iso. The guy has good crossovers, a good hang dribble with deceptive hesitation, a great pull-up J, the beginnings of a stepback J, spins going both ways. And then he's obviously very good once he has a guy on his hip.

I still stick to my prime D-Will comp for his iso potential. D-Will had a tighter handle (as a 25-year-old - Fultz has a great ball--handling foundation to work from), but was very average in north-south acceleration and didn't enjoy the same level of size advantage that Fultz will nor his tremendous repertoire of secondary moves after getting a step. Still was more than capable as an iso player, even if his bread and butter was PNR.

[nolang1]

He needs a pick OR he needs a teammate or two who can score enough for the defense to pay attention to. I can count the number of players in the league who can consistently get to the basket 1-on-5 on one hand, and Fultz projects to be a much better outside shooter than all of them.

except for Kyrie.

Wouldn't put Kyrie in the same league at attacking the basket as LeBron, Giannis, Wall, or Westbrook. Not much evidence of Kyrie doing it without LeBron and Love on his team.

[mattao313]

Sorry, never heard of a drive stat...

http://stats.nba.com/players/drives/#!?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=DRIVES&dir=1

Where do you get that he was top 10 in drives?

in 15-16 this season he was hurt

[SelfishPlayer]

http://stats.nba.com/players/drives/#!?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=DRIVES&dir=1

Where do you get that he was top 10 in drives?

in 15-16 this season he was hurt

Now how does any of this conflict with my original post? I don't see anything that details how the drive was initiated, with a pićk or without...

[mattao313]

Where do you get that he was top 10 in drives?

in 15-16 this season he was hurt

Now how does any of this conflict with my original post? I don't see anything that details how the drive was initiated, with a pićk or without...

Cause the NBA is a PNR league it doesn't matter if you need a pick or not in order to be a elite paint scorer. Most nba ball handler spasm the pnr anyway.

[Marcus]

He needs a pick OR he needs a teammate or two who can score enough for the defense to pay attention to. I can count the number of players in the league who can consistently get to the basket 1-on-5 on one hand, and Fultz projects to be a much better outside shooter than all of them.

except for Kyrie.

Wouldn't put Kyrie in the same league at attacking the basket as LeBron, Giannis, Wall, or Westbrook. Not much evidence of Kyrie doing it without LeBron and Love on his team.

Never saw Kyrie before Lebron came back huh?

[SelfishPlayer]

in 15-16 this season he was hurt

Now how does any of this conflict with my original post? I don't see anything that details how the drive was initiated, with a pićk or without...

Cause the NBA is a PNR league it doesn't matter if you need a pick or not in order to be a elite paint scorer. Most nba ball handler spasm the pnr anyway.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/246160/NBAs-New-Isolation-Is-Getting-Worst-Defender-Switched-Onto-Ball

[reanimator]

Now how does any of this conflict with my original post? I don't see anything that details how the drive was initiated, with a pićk or without...

Cause the NBA is a PNR league it doesn't matter if you need a pick or not in order to be a elite paint scorer. Most nba ball handler spasm the pnr anyway.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/246160/NBAs-New-Isolation-Is-Getting-Worst-Defender-Switched-Onto-Ball

using screens...

[nolang1]

except for Kyrie.

Wouldn't put Kyrie in the same league at attacking the basket as LeBron, Giannis, Wall, or Westbrook. Not much evidence of Kyrie doing it without LeBron and Love on his team.

Never saw Kyrie before Lebron came back huh?

No, I see that teams don't load up on him to prevent him from getting to the basket and that before LeBron came back, he was middle of the road in terms of how often he drove and how well he shot on those drives.

[SelfishPlayer]

Cause the NBA is a PNR league it doesn't matter if you need a pick or not in order to be a elite paint scorer. Most nba ball handler spasm the pnr anyway.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/246160/NBAs-New-Isolation-Is-Getting-Worst-Defender-Switched-Onto-Ball

using screens...

iso after a switch isn't a pick & ROLL.

[mattao313]

Now how does any of this conflict with my original post? I don't see anything that details how the drive was initiated, with a pićk or without...

Cause the NBA is a PNR league it doesn't matter if you need a pick or not in order to be a elite paint scorer. Most nba ball handler spasm the pnr anyway.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/246160/NBAs-New-Isolation-Is-Getting-Worst-Defender-Switched-Onto-Ball

So you really think Markelle can't score against the worse defenders in the nba? Guys like Harden and Derozan do it all the time.

[SelfishPlayer]

Cause the NBA is a PNR league it doesn't matter if you need a pick or not in order to be a elite paint scorer. Most nba ball handler spasm the pnr anyway.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/246160/NBAs-New-Isolation-Is-Getting-Worst-Defender-Switched-Onto-Ball

So you really think Markelle can't score against the worse defenders in the nba? Guys like Harden and Derozan do it all the time.

Wait, where do you get off asserting that Fultz will be able to do something simply because NBA All Stars do it? Fultz hasn't played a single NBA minute yet.

[mattao313]

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/246160/NBAs-New-Isolation-Is-Getting-Worst-Defender-Switched-Onto-Ball

So you really think Markelle can't score against the worse defenders in the nba? Guys like Harden and Derozan do it all the time.

Wait, where do you get off asserting that Fultz will be able to do something simply because NBA All Stars do it? Fultz hasn't played a single NBA minute yet.

Cause he is similar to these guys physically and a high level prospect, if we aren't going on his potential going into the NBA neither of our opinions matter in the first place.

[E-Balla]

Fultz is a late bloomer himself and is nothing like the player he was as a Jr and Sr in HS.

No one averaging 23/6/6 at 18 in the Pac 12 can be described as a late bloomer. Period.

Lol this is just silly.

To go from unranked midway through your Jr year to top 30 as a senior to consensus #1 as a college freshman while making huge gains as a shooter, passer and physically definitely qualifies. Many of you were questioning if he could even shoot the 3 prior to the season given his HS body of work and he obliterated those concerns. One of the youngest prospects in the draft and made considerable gains every year and no reason to believe he has topped out.

If you're blooming before you hit the NBA you're not a late bloomer. You're talking about growth he made as a minor and comparing it to Brandon Roy who didn't breakout until he was 21.

[SelfishPlayer]

So you really think Markelle can't score against the worse defenders in the nba? Guys like Harden and Derozan do it all the time.

Wait, where do you get off asserting that Fultz will be able to do something simply because NBA All Stars do it? Fultz hasn't played a single NBA minute yet.

Cause he is similar to these guys physically and a high level prospect, if we aren't going on his potential going into the NBA neither of our opinions matter in the first place.

Harden didn't have Harden potential entering the league so there's no way that Fultz has it. You should just use Michael Jordan from now on...

[E-Balla]

When you say Fultz is "horrible without a pick," that his first step is "basura" and that Lonzo "locked him down" and "kept him in a ball and chain" you are being hyperbolic to a hater degree.

1. He's in the 29th percentile in isolation possessions. He is horrible without a pick that's a statistical fact.

2. His first step IS trash. I barely see him turn the hips of bigmen.

3. He beat Lonzo off the bounce maybe 3 times the whole damn game. Other than that he had to rely on tough shot making (which I've said for the longest is his best quality as an offensive player).

None of that was hyperbole. At all. I even have real numbers to explain 2 of those points and the other one can be supported by those numbers.

Plenty of legit critiques of Fultz - you are just massively overstating your case.

It's not unreasonable to project that Fultz will be able to use some of the same techniques he uses to split defenses after the pick to break guys down in iso. The guy has good crossovers, a good hang dribble with deceptive hesitation, a great pull-up J, the beginnings of a stepback J, spins going both ways. And then he's obviously very good once he has a guy on his hip.

Then why couldn't he do it in college? I'd understand if he could do it in college and my argument was that it wouldn't project but he couldn't and my argument is that he never showed he could do it even at a way lower level than the NBA so why project that not only will be be able to do it but that he'd be similar to the GOAT at it?

I still stick to my prime D-Will comp for his iso potential. D-Will had a tighter handle (as a 25-year-old - Fultz has a great ball--handling foundation to work from), but was very average in north-south acceleration and didn't enjoy the same level of size advantage that Fultz will nor his tremendous repertoire of secondary moves after getting a step. Still was more than capable as an iso player, even if his bread and butter was PNR.

Personally I compare him to Dame Lillard if he was in Chauncey's body. D-Will, even in college, had a deadly crossover.

[SelfishPlayer]

People are in for a rude awakening when they see how slow Fultz looks in the NBA. People had that same wake up call when Evan Turner entered the league.

[reanimator]

No one averaging 23/6/6 at 18 in the Pac 12 can be described as a late bloomer. Period.

Lol this is just silly.

To go from unranked midway through your Jr year to top 30 as a senior to consensus #1 as a college freshman while making huge gains as a shooter, passer and physically definitely qualifies. Many of you were questioning if he could even shoot the 3 prior to the season given his HS body of work and he obliterated those concerns. One of the youngest prospects in the draft and made considerable gains every year and no reason to believe he has topped out.

If you're blooming before you hit the NBA you're not a late bloomer. You're talking about growth he made as a minor and comparing it to Brandon Roy who didn't breakout until he was 21.

Incredibly silly logic...

Giannis, Embiid, Anthony Davis, Gordon Hayward, etc are all late bloomers who didn't catch traction til the end of their HS careers, for example.

Guys like Fox, Ball an DSJ were on the national scene YEARS before Fultz was even a thought.

Roy was a top 40 kid coming out of HS and tried to declare for the draft out of HS so you're whole premise is off. He wasn't a late bloomer but simply plagued by injuries at Washington.