Markelle Fultz

[Shamrock]

This thread is gold

[Higgs Boston]

What a thread LOL. Priceless.

[Slartibartfast]

Plenty of legit critiques of Fultz - you are just massively overstating your case.

It's not unreasonable to project that Fultz will be able to use some of the same techniques he uses to split defenses after the pick to break guys down in iso. The guy has good crossovers, a good hang dribble with deceptive hesitation, a great pull-up J, the beginnings of a stepback J, spins going both ways. And then he's obviously very good once he has a guy on his hip.

Then why couldn't he do it in college? I'd understand if he could do it in college and my argument was that it wouldn't project but he couldn't and my argument is that he never showed he could do it even at a way lower level than the NBA so why project that not only will be be able to do it but that he'd be similar to the GOAT at it?

He's an 18-year-old. He's not going to be amazingly polished at everything. The question is what kind of foundation for isolation play does he have. You have declared his first step basura - I disagree. Don't think his style of play has given us enough of a sample to evaluate it. But even if it is, that's not the beginning and end of isolation.

He's already got a trove of vital assets for iso play - a money pull-up, a slick handle, the ability to drive and finish right and left, all of which should be even more potent with his size as his strength improves. He's put plenty of good stuff on tape too, even if the results aren't there. He gets very good misdirection with his crossovers- they aren't as tight as D-Will's but they absolutely shift hips. And his herky-jerk driving style will be very tough for bigs to handle.

While his toolkit isn't the best for dusting quick guards 1-on-1 he's got fantastic potential as a post-up guard and the handles/moves to protect the ball and maneuver smaller guys down into the post. He doesn't look to have worked on this part of his game much, but he's got all the requisite tools - length, developing strength, ambidexterity, spins, touch and vision. I know you hate the D-Wade comp, but prime Wade ate up little quick guys in the post.

I still stick to my prime D-Will comp for his iso potential. D-Will had a tighter handle (as a 25-year-old - Fultz has a great ball--handling foundation to work from), but was very average in north-south acceleration and didn't enjoy the same level of size advantage that Fultz will nor his tremendous repertoire of secondary moves after getting a step. Still was more than capable as an iso player, even if his bread and butter was PNR.

Personally I compare him to Dame Lillard if he was in Chauncey's body. D-Will, even in college, had a deadly crossover.

Lillard in Chauncey's body sounds like quite the iso player. And I doubt 18-year-old D-Will was scorching Synergy ISO ppp charts as a freshman putting up 9 points per 40 on meh efficiency.

[reanimator]

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/246160/NBAs-New-Isolation-Is-Getting-Worst-Defender-Switched-Onto-Ball

using screens...

iso after a switch isn't a pick & ROLL.

You said Fultz can't get by guards but then posted an article that basically alleviates your concerns unless you don't think he can use a ballscreen to get a mismatch on a bigger, slower player to exploit?

[E-Balla]

He's an 18-year-old. He's not going to be amazingly polished at everything. The question is what kind of foundation for isolation play does he have. You have declared his first step basura - I disagree. Don't think his style of play has given us enough of a sample to evaluate it. But even if it is, that's not the beginning and end of isolation.

He's already got a trove of vital assets for iso play - a money pull-up, a slick handle, the ability to drive and finish right and left, all of which should be even more potent with his size as his strength improves. He's put plenty of good stuff on tape too, even if the results aren't there. He gets very good misdirection with his crossovers- they aren't as tight as D-Will's but they absolutely shift hips. And his herky-jerk driving style will be very tough for bigs to handle.

Why not project he'll be a better Magic Johnson. I mean he's only 18 you'll never know if he develops to be as good as Magic!

Let's be real here if you stink in isolation in college and lack elite athleticism or even good athleticism for someone your size its not looking good for you. You're saying he put good things on tape but that's coming off a PNR. The defense is already a step behind off the PNR. Outside of being able to finish with both hands everything you said applied to D'Angelo Russell but no one in their right minds would compare him to Deron or Dwyane.

And yeah he might be able to drive on bigs but this is an NBA level G prospect of course he can.

While his toolkit isn't the best for dusting quick guards 1-on-1 he's got fantastic potential as a post-up guard and the handles/moves to protect the ball and maneuver smaller guys down into the post. He doesn't look to have worked on this part of his game much, but he's got all the requisite tools - length, developing strength, ambidexterity, spins, touch and vision. I know you hate the D-Wade comp, but prime Wade ate up little quick guys in the post.

Well if we're talking about the post that's something else entirely ain't it? And Wade wasn't a post player. His first option was the drive, his second option was to drive, and his third option was to drive.

Lillard in Chauncey's body sounds like quite the iso player. And I doubt 18-year-old D-Will was scorching Synergy ISO ppp charts as a freshman putting up 9 points per 40 on meh efficiency.

1. Comparisons aren't perfect or 1 to 1.

2. Same relies on his speed a lot so if he had Chauncey's speed he wouldn't be nearly as good isolating.

3. Don't even try to compare the NCAA pre 1 and done era to right now. The competition isn't even remotely similar.

[Patsfan1081]

This thread is gold

These draft threads are always comical, especially when you compare the comments befor the draft lottery takes place to after when fans have a somewhat good idea where a players headed. Fans opinions all of a sudden remarkably change when they know a certain player has no chance of going to their team.

[Patsfan1081]

He's an 18-year-old. He's not going to be amazingly polished at everything. The question is what kind of foundation for isolation play does he have. You have declared his first step basura - I disagree. Don't think his style of play has given us enough of a sample to evaluate it. But even if it is, that's not the beginning and end of isolation.

He's already got a trove of vital assets for iso play - a money pull-up, a slick handle, the ability to drive and finish right and left, all of which should be even more potent with his size as his strength improves. He's put plenty of good stuff on tape too, even if the results aren't there. He gets very good misdirection with his crossovers- they aren't as tight as D-Will's but they absolutely shift hips. And his herky-jerk driving style will be very tough for bigs to handle.

Why not project he'll be a better Magic Johnson. I mean he's only 18 you'll never know if he develops to be as good as Magic!

Let's be real here if you stink in isolation in college and lack elite athleticism or even good athleticism for someone your size its not looking good for you. You're saying he put good things on tape but that's coming off a PNR. The defense is already a step behind off the PNR. Outside of being able to finish with both hands everything you said applied to D'Angelo Russell but no one in their right minds would compare him to Deron or Dwyane.

And yeah he might be able to drive on bigs but this is an NBA level G prospect of course he can.

While his toolkit isn't the best for dusting quick guards 1-on-1 he's got fantastic potential as a post-up guard and the handles/moves to protect the ball and maneuver smaller guys down into the post. He doesn't look to have worked on this part of his game much, but he's got all the requisite tools - length, developing strength, ambidexterity, spins, touch and vision. I know you hate the D-Wade comp, but prime Wade ate up little quick guys in the post.

Well if we're talking about the post that's something else entirely ain't it? And Wade wasn't a post player. His first option was the drive, his second option was to drive, and his third option was to drive.

Lillard in Chauncey's body sounds like quite the iso player. And I doubt 18-year-old D-Will was scorching Synergy ISO ppp charts as a freshman putting up 9 points per 40 on meh efficiency.

1. Comparisons aren't perfect or 1 to 1.

2. Same relies on his speed a lot so if he had Chauncey's speed he wouldn't be nearly as good isolating.

3. Don't even try to compare the NCAA pre 1 and done era to right now. The competition isn't even remotely similar.

I just find a bit odd that your opinion differs from every single mock draft or scouting report out there, should I disregard all these opinions claiming an ability to score in isolation? I mean why should we trust all these popular websites and writers that have been around for ever over your opinion? Not that I'm trying to knock you or something but are just the opinions of all of these people being paid to watch every second of these kids play a load of crap?

http://www.nbadraft.net/players/markelle-fultz

[E-Balla]

He's an 18-year-old. He's not going to be amazingly polished at everything. The question is what kind of foundation for isolation play does he have. You have declared his first step basura - I disagree. Don't think his style of play has given us enough of a sample to evaluate it. But even if it is, that's not the beginning and end of isolation.

He's already got a trove of vital assets for iso play - a money pull-up, a slick handle, the ability to drive and finish right and left, all of which should be even more potent with his size as his strength improves. He's put plenty of good stuff on tape too, even if the results aren't there. He gets very good misdirection with his crossovers- they aren't as tight as D-Will's but they absolutely shift hips. And his herky-jerk driving style will be very tough for bigs to handle.

Why not project he'll be a better Magic Johnson. I mean he's only 18 you'll never know if he develops to be as good as Magic!

Let's be real here if you stink in isolation in college and lack elite athleticism or even good athleticism for someone your size its not looking good for you. You're saying he put good things on tape but that's coming off a PNR. The defense is already a step behind off the PNR. Outside of being able to finish with both hands everything you said applied to D'Angelo Russell but no one in their right minds would compare him to Deron or Dwyane.

And yeah he might be able to drive on bigs but this is an NBA level G prospect of course he can.

While his toolkit isn't the best for dusting quick guards 1-on-1 he's got fantastic potential as a post-up guard and the handles/moves to protect the ball and maneuver smaller guys down into the post. He doesn't look to have worked on this part of his game much, but he's got all the requisite tools - length, developing strength, ambidexterity, spins, touch and vision. I know you hate the D-Wade comp, but prime Wade ate up little quick guys in the post.

Well if we're talking about the post that's something else entirely ain't it? And Wade wasn't a post player. His first option was the drive, his second option was to drive, and his third option was to drive.

Lillard in Chauncey's body sounds like quite the iso player. And I doubt 18-year-old D-Will was scorching Synergy ISO ppp charts as a freshman putting up 9 points per 40 on meh efficiency.

1. Comparisons aren't perfect or 1 to 1.

2. Same relies on his speed a lot so if he had Chauncey's speed he wouldn't be nearly as good isolating.

3. Don't even try to compare the NCAA pre 1 and done era to right now. The competition isn't even remotely similar.

I just find a bit odd that your opinion differs from every single mock draft or scouting report out there, should I disregard all these opinions claiming an ability to score in isolation? I mean why should we trust all these popular websites and writers that have been around for ever over your opinion? Not that I'm trying to knock you or something but are just the opinions of all of these people being paid to watch every second of these kids play a load of crap?

http://www.nbadraft.net/players/markelle-fultz

Well for one thing they compare him to DLo. But how about we go to the most reliable draft site and see what they say?

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Markelle-Fultz-90302/

Fultz struggled to maintain his effectiveness against better competition, as his offensive efficiency took a significant tumble in the games he played against elite-level opponents. He had a more difficult time turning the corner and getting into the paint in these games seemingly

But its hating when I say I saw the same and cite numbers to support my thoughts?

And a ton of these scouting reports just take crap from each other. One thing I've learned over the years watching the draft is to not trust scouts over my eyes. In a few cases I'm wrong (I mean no one is 100%) but usually I'm not wrong when it comes to things you can quantify on the court like ability to drive and shoot (Marcus Smart is the only one that comes to mind where I was off the mark recently). These same sites said Brandon Ingram wasn't trash too.

[Jingles]

I love small sample size arrogance based on what is already practically a different sport given the lack of spacing. Die on that iso hill though while Fultz excels on a non-trash team with a pick on every possession because guess what NBA basketball.

[kennygee90]

D'angelo Russell is a different player from fultz despite some slight similarities. While Fultz loves to attack the paint in the pick n role ala Irving and wade Russell tends to shoot the off the dribble 3 ala harden and curry. They both are advanced ball handlers with great court vision with Fultz being a really good passer and Russell being a great one. Fultz already has a developed body while Russell is still working on improving his strength and shedding his baby fat. They play at a calm pace with both showing the ability to shift gears. Russell's road to superstardom depends on whether he becomes a 40% 3pt shooter with his quick release allowing him to attack defenders who play too tight ala curry. It will also allow him to be a better playmaker cause teams would need to trap him in order to slow him down. He'll also need to improve his strength and finishing in the paint but that will come in time when he matures his body and learns the tricks of the game.
Fultz road to stardom is through his elite ability to get in the teeth of the defense creating havoc ala wade and Harden. He can shift gears seamlessly finish with incredible moves and also create for a big if the defender moves out of position. He'll need to quicken the release on his jumper but with his size it might end up not being an issue. He's a future star if his shooting holds up.

[nolang1]

This thread is gold

These draft threads are always comical, especially when you compare the comments befor the draft lottery takes place to after when fans have a somewhat good idea where a players headed. Fans opinions all of a sudden remarkably change when they know a certain player has no chance of going to their team.

This and once someone is established as a clear-cut number one prospect, you see people start to load up their contrarian takes about how he'll actually be a bust.

[Slartibartfast]

He's an 18-year-old. He's not going to be amazingly polished at everything. The question is what kind of foundation for isolation play does he have. You have declared his first step basura - I disagree. Don't think his style of play has given us enough of a sample to evaluate it. But even if it is, that's not the beginning and end of isolation.

He's already got a trove of vital assets for iso play - a money pull-up, a slick handle, the ability to drive and finish right and left, all of which should be even more potent with his size as his strength improves. He's put plenty of good stuff on tape too, even if the results aren't there. He gets very good misdirection with his crossovers- they aren't as tight as D-Will's but they absolutely shift hips. And his herky-jerk driving style will be very tough for bigs to handle.

Why not project he'll be a better Magic Johnson. I mean he's only 18 you'll never know if he develops to be as good as Magic!

Let's be real here if you stink in isolation in college and lack elite athleticism or even good athleticism for someone your size its not looking good for you. You're saying he put good things on tape but that's coming off a PNR. The defense is already a step behind off the PNR. Outside of being able to finish with both hands everything you said applied to D'Angelo Russell but no one in their right minds would compare him to Deron or Dwyane.

And yeah he might be able to drive on bigs but this is an NBA level G prospect of course he can.

While his toolkit isn't the best for dusting quick guards 1-on-1 he's got fantastic potential as a post-up guard and the handles/moves to protect the ball and maneuver smaller guys down into the post. He doesn't look to have worked on this part of his game much, but he's got all the requisite tools - length, developing strength, ambidexterity, spins, touch and vision. I know you hate the D-Wade comp, but prime Wade ate up little quick guys in the post.

Well if we're talking about the post that's something else entirely ain't it? And Wade wasn't a post player. His first option was the drive, his second option was to drive, and his third option was to drive.

Lillard in Chauncey's body sounds like quite the iso player. And I doubt 18-year-old D-Will was scorching Synergy ISO ppp charts as a freshman putting up 9 points per 40 on meh efficiency.

1. Comparisons aren't perfect or 1 to 1.

2. Same relies on his speed a lot so if he had Chauncey's speed he wouldn't be nearly as good isolating.

3. Don't even try to compare the NCAA pre 1 and done era to right now. The competition isn't even remotely similar.

There's a pretty big gulf between declaring someone a finished product at 18 and projecting them all the way to Magic Johnson because they're only 18.

And when I said he put stuff on tape, I was talking about isos. He rarely isos (incidentally, the average NBA PG isos like 13% of their possessions compared to 50+% as PNR ballhandler), but in the times I've seen (usually when bigs switch on to him) he's shown good tools. Especially his crossover. He can also back-up and pick up speed (a frequent tactic of NBA guards) - mitigating his lack of Fox-style 0-60 acceleration and bring his advanced agility to bear.

As for posting up, no it's not something else entirely. It's one of the preferred means of isolation for big guards against guys they can't consistently outquick when they aren't running PNR. A lot of guards dribble right into a post-up from the perimeter. Trust me - I'm a Celtics fan. I watched John Wall and Bradley Beal do this ad nauseam to Isaiah Thomas (and Butler and Wade in the previous round). Wade and LeBron did it just about every time Rondo switched onto them on the perimeter. Joe Johnson destroyed Ray Allen working his way into post-ups in the 2008 first round. Shaun Livingston has made a post-injury career out of taking PGs into the post.

Now there will be some guys that are too quick for Fultz to take off the dribble in iso AND too big/strong to post up - but these are type of guys that nobody isos anyways because PNR basketball is so much more effective.

[CeltsfaninDC]

This thread is gold

I'm so happy I came here

[Duke4life831]

Im not even sure what this thread is about anymore but Fultz is going to workout with the Kings. He did say before he was only going to workout for Boston. I wonder if he had heard that his position at #1 isnt as locked in place as he thought or if Sac might be trying to make a trade up to #1.

[GritAndMind]

Even if Kings are trying to trade to #3 it may make sense for Fultz to work out for Boston, Philly, Sacramento. The only spot I think is guaranteed is Lonzo at #2 to the Lakers

[E-Balla]

There's a pretty big gulf between declaring someone a finished product at 18 and projecting them all the way to Magic Johnson because they're only 18.

No one called him a finished project. At all. Calm down with the strawman. I said he plays nothing like D. Wade. Period. That's literally all I'm saying. Comparing a below average slasher (FOR HIS AGE) to the GOAT slasher is insane.

And when I said he put stuff on tape, I was talking about isos. He rarely isos (incidentally, the average NBA PG isos like 13% of their possessions compared to 50+% as PNR ballhandler), but in the times I've seen (usually when bigs switch on to him) he's shown good tools. Especially his crossover. He can also back-up and pick up speed (a frequent tactic of NBA guards) - mitigating his lack of Fox-style 0-60 acceleration and bring his advanced agility to bear.

Where's the receipts then? My position is well documented as a statistical fact. You're basing your position on the bags of tricks he pulls out on college bigmen that he should just be blowing past instead of what he does vs Gs.

As for posting up, no it's not something else entirely. It's one of the preferred means of isolation for big guards against guys they can't consistently outquick when they aren't running PNR. A lot of guards dribble right into a post-up from the perimeter. Trust me - I'm a Celtics fan. I watched John Wall and Bradley Beal do this ad nauseam to Isaiah Thomas (and Butler and Wade in the previous round). Wade and LeBron did it just about every time Rondo switched onto them on the perimeter. Joe Johnson destroyed Ray Allen working his way into post-ups in the 2008 first round. Shaun Livingston has made a post-injury career out of taking PGs into the post.

No one compares you to D. Wade because of your post game. Period. We were discussing him as a slasher vs Wade.

Now there will be some guys that are too quick for Fultz to take off the dribble in iso AND too big/strong to post up - but these are type of guys that nobody isos anyways because PNR basketball is so much more effective.

And what does this have to do with me saying Fultz plays nothing like Wade?

[E-Balla]

D'angelo Russell is a different player from fultz despite some slight similarities. While Fultz loves to attack the paint in the pick n role ala Irving and wade Russell tends to shoot the off the dribble 3 ala harden and curry. They both are advanced ball handlers with great court vision with Fultz being a really good passer and Russell being a great one. Fultz already has a developed body while Russell is still working on improving his strength and shedding his baby fat. They play at a calm pace with both showing the ability to shift gears. Russell's road to superstardom depends on whether he becomes a 40% 3pt shooter with his quick release allowing him to attack defenders who play too tight ala curry. It will also allow him to be a better playmaker cause teams would need to trap him in order to slow him down. He'll also need to improve his strength and finishing in the paint but that will come in time when he matures his body and learns the tricks of the game.
Fultz road to stardom is through his elite ability to get in the teeth of the defense creating havoc ala wade and Harden. He can shift gears seamlessly finish with incredible moves and also create for a big if the defender moves out of position. He'll need to quicken the release on his jumper but with his size it might end up not being an issue. He's a future star if his shooting holds up.

So he's elite at getting into the paint like Wade and Harden but he didn't do it in college and there's multiple PGs IN HIS DRAFT better than him at slashing? Totally. I'm sure his strength isn't his midrange jumper which was 46% of his shot attempts which he hit at 44% to lead the NCAA in midrange shots made and attempted and its his ability to get to the rim which was only 25% of his shot attempts he hit at 61% (DLo took 22% of his shots in the paint at Ohio State and made them at 62% while a real elite slasher like Fox took 48% of his shots at the rim at 64% and Smith took 37% of his shots at the rim at 65%). You're totally right here.

[Shamrock]

Im not even sure what this thread is about anymore but Fultz is going to workout with the Kings. He did say before he was only going to workout for Boston. I wonder if he had heard that his position at #1 isnt as locked in place as he thought or if Sac might be trying to make a trade up to #1.

Yeah it's weird, Kings don't have enough to get #1

[nolang1]

Im not even sure what this thread is about anymore but Fultz is going to workout with the Kings. He did say before he was only going to workout for Boston. I wonder if he had heard that his position at #1 isnt as locked in place as he thought or if Sac might be trying to make a trade up to #1.

Yeah it's weird, Kings don't have enough to get #1

Boston could get WCS and Butler/George, and the Kings and Celtics probably have enough picks between them to give one of those teams a good start on a rebuild.

There's a pretty big gulf between declaring someone a finished product at 18 and projecting them all the way to Magic Johnson because they're only 18.

No one called him a finished project. At all. Calm down with the strawman. I said he plays nothing like D. Wade. Period. That's literally all I'm saying. Comparing a below average slasher (FOR HIS AGE) to the GOAT slasher is insane.

The average slasher for that age would be struggling to score like 98 percent of college freshmen do or still in high school (Fultz is 2 weeks older than Mo Bamba and 1 month older than Michael Porter Jr.). So that would the actual strawman argument.

[E-Balla]

Im not even sure what this thread is about anymore but Fultz is going to workout with the Kings. He did say before he was only going to workout for Boston. I wonder if he had heard that his position at #1 isnt as locked in place as he thought or if Sac might be trying to make a trade up to #1.

Yeah it's weird, Kings don't have enough to get #1

Boston could get WCS and Butler/George, and the Kings and Celtics probably have enough picks between them to give one of those teams a good start on a rebuild.

There's a pretty big gulf between declaring someone a finished product at 18 and projecting them all the way to Magic Johnson because they're only 18.

No one called him a finished project. At all. Calm down with the strawman. I said he plays nothing like D. Wade. Period. That's literally all I'm saying. Comparing a below average slasher (FOR HIS AGE) to the GOAT slasher is insane.

The average slasher for that age would be struggling to score like 98 percent of college freshmen do or still in high school (Fultz is 2 weeks older than Mo Bamba and 1 month older than Michael Porter Jr.). So that would the actual strawman argument.

You obviously don't know what a strawman argument is and based on ppp Fultz definitely struggled to score when slashing.