NBA 2017 Draft thread. 5th pick and 10th pick.

[SacKingZZZ]

And yet Hield and Skal both took steps on the defensive side of the ball in their short playing time. It's not really a gamble to see players developing in other areas as they become pros and play in different system like Joeger's which would demand they work hard on the defensive end.

That's true. And I brought up previously that I think there is a chance DSJ does become a much better one on one defender than he was in college if some of his one on one workout footage is to be believed.

Dave Joergers defensive game plan is a whole other argument and is part of the reason I think it's crucial that he has some really good defensive personnel at his disposal because his system will rely on it more than others. In particular when defending the 3 ball. The ability to slide and recover as well as aggressively defending pick and roll is a prerequisite. One of the primary knocks against Smith Jr. is the pick and roll defense he's shown up to this point.

And under Joeger and this system his pick and role defense will not doubt improve especially as you say that is what the coach will demand.

Thanks for agreeing.

I still wouldn't count them out as pieces you might have to prop up with surrounding personnel. That's the issue.

[benchmobbin02]

I love this interview from Donovan Mitchell. He says all the right things and talks about being the guy that does the stuff some others don't want to do. Also brought Avery Bradley as a comparison. I wouldn't mind them looking at him if they do go SF at 5.

Watch on YouTube

Could be a guy they trade down for. Not thrilled with his height and lack of distributing background but the wingspan, team and defensive mind frame are pluses.

[benchmobbin02]

That's true. And I brought up previously that I think there is a chance DSJ does become a much better one on one defender than he was in college if some of his one on one workout footage is to be believed.

Dave Joergers defensive game plan is a whole other argument and is part of the reason I think it's crucial that he has some really good defensive personnel at his disposal because his system will rely on it more than others. In particular when defending the 3 ball. The ability to slide and recover as well as aggressively defending pick and roll is a prerequisite. One of the primary knocks against Smith Jr. is the pick and roll defense he's shown up to this point.

And under Joeger and this system his pick and role defense will not doubt improve especially as you say that is what the coach will demand.

Thanks for agreeing.

I still wouldn't count them out as pieces you might have to prop up with surrounding personnel. That's the issue.

Doubt it. But thanks for agreeing once again.

[benchmobbin02]

Bill Simmons is convinced that Fox will fall to 5th. Doesn't think that we should trade. Thinks we should stick and pick.

Other nuggets from his pod -

Lonzo should be the LA pick but he knows Magic well (according to him) and Magic loves guys that compete. Said the Kentucky game could be an issue.

He likes Viveck alot.

Floated an in draft trade if Fox and Ball are gone at 5. Said WCS and 10 for 8th so we guaranteed to get a PG and a SF.

[City of Trees]

I love this interview from Donovan Mitchell. He says all the right things and talks about being the guy that does the stuff some others don't want to do. Also brought Avery Bradley as a comparison. I wouldn't mind them looking at him if they do go SF at 5.

Watch on YouTube

Could be a guy they trade down for. Not thrilled with his height and lack of distributing background but the wingspan, team and defensive mind frame are pluses.

He's the same height as Fox, DSJ, and Monk? Teach him to play point like Brogdon?

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[SacKingZZZ]

I love this interview from Donovan Mitchell. He says all the right things and talks about being the guy that does the stuff some others don't want to do. Also brought Avery Bradley as a comparison. I wouldn't mind them looking at him if they do go SF at 5.

Watch on YouTube

Could be a guy they trade down for. Not thrilled with his height and lack of distributing background but the wingspan, team and defensive mind frame are pluses.

He's the same height as Fox, DSJ, and Monk? Teach him to play point like Brogdon?

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Well, it sounds like Pitino is trying to convince everyone that there won't be a problem with him going to PG. I think regardless Joerger would know how to get the most out of a player like him on the offensive end.

[benchmobbin02]

I love this interview from Donovan Mitchell. He says all the right things and talks about being the guy that does the stuff some others don't want to do. Also brought Avery Bradley as a comparison. I wouldn't mind them looking at him if they do go SF at 5.

Watch on YouTube

Could be a guy they trade down for. Not thrilled with his height and lack of distributing background but the wingspan, team and defensive mind frame are pluses.

He's the same height as Fox, DSJ, and Monk? Teach him to play point like Brogdon?

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And I'm not thrilled with their height either. Didn't say I wouldn't be happy with any on my team. But I'd rather they be 6'5. I just love length and most of the time that is attached to height. I also said I like his freakish wingspan...

[benchmobbin02]

Could be a guy they trade down for. Not thrilled with his height and lack of distributing background but the wingspan, team and defensive mind frame are pluses.

He's the same height as Fox, DSJ, and Monk? Teach him to play point like Brogdon?

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Well, it sounds like Pitino is trying to convince everyone that there won't be a problem with him going to PG. I think regardless Joerger would know how to get the most out of a player like him on the offensive end.

More than that he straight up said PG is his natural position haha.

http://nypost.com/2017/05/25/rick-pitino-has-the-knicks-solution-at-point-guard/

All good things to hear in there but do your own research...

[sacking123]

I'm getting less worries about the pieces we get out of the draft and the reason for this is our coaching staff has show an ability to work with the players we haven't seen here for a long long time.
I think that also has a lot to do with the relationships Joerger obviously puts in with his players.
I'm not worried about DSJs "defensive issues" or anything like that.
Joerger and his staff from top down has shown already they know how to develop young players, and that was during a year where he played the vets looking for playoffs.
Maybe that was a large part of it, the young ones had to earn it and improve, but one thing he has said from day dot is they will get minutes if the effort on D is there.
I have that much confidence in him Vlade can select whoever and Joerger will find a way to utilise them on D.


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[rpa]

My current big board for the Kings:

1) Fultz
2) Fox
3) Monk (If you believe he can play PG)
4) Ball
5) Jackson
6) DSJ
7) Isaac
8) Tatum
9) Markannen
10) Ntilikina
11) Mitchell (If you believe he can play PG)
12) Collins
13) Monk (AS SG)
14) Mitchell (AS SG)

Thoughts:
- At the top I'm looking for elite, translatable skills. I think Fox's speed for his size is close to elite. His work ethic and passion are also huge pluses. Monk's scoring/shooting is another one. Problem is if he's forced to play the 2 he'd be at a huge disadvantage on the defensive side of the ball. But if he can play point? He could be REALLY good.
- I still don't like Tatum. Too much ISO ball that I don't think will translate well when he's matched up with the freak athletes that live at the 3. His rebounding will translate and I think he'll learn to shoot well, but I don't think his skillset will ever be a 3&D guy nor a top line scorer.
- I've soured on Isaac a bit. Too many times have I read an analysis that directly or indirectly calls him passive or unsure of himself. We had that with McLemore (granted it was combined with awful BBIQ) and it didn't turn out well.
- Man do I love what I see from Fox. He's quick enough that he should do well in ISO situations. He's athletic. He doesn't seem to heavily favor one hand or the other even at such a young age. He's got great passion and a great work ethic. He just seems so fluid in his movements. His FT% and mid-range game tell me that his 3pt shooting can (and will improve). I'm not saying I'd trade the 5/10 for him--far from it--but the more I look at him the more I understand why you'd want to do it.
- DSJ and Jackson both scare me, but for different reasons. Jackson because he is, by far, the hardest prospect to evaluate. His FT% and 3pt% are inverted--making it difficult to decipher where his shooting's at on the next level. Worse, though, is that he's a SG/SF in the NBA that played PF (and against PFs) in college. Want to look uber quick and athletic? Play against slower, less athletic bigs. In the NBA he's not an uber-athlete as a 2/3--he's just above average. DSJ scares me because he's got the tools, but plays too much dribble/ISO ball. I'm worried he's going to be a guy like Evans who puts up good looking stats, but is an offensive drain when he's on the court. His knees and measurables aren't too attractive either.
- The more I see from the 2 bigs the more I like them. One of the great travesties right now is that with 3 bigs on the roster (2 of whom are centers) it's hard to justify taking another one unless you think they're superstars. I think Markannen could be that. His shooting is ridiculous and he's really fluid for a guy that size. His rebounding and defense worry me, though. Not even sure what position he plays in the NBA. Collins I like, but the big problem with him is that he's what the team hopes (IMO at least) Papagiannis becomes: a 3&D big. Collins--one could argue--is further along and with more potential.
- Ntilikina is such a tease. Those measurables are insane for a PG and French players have a really good history (recently at least). I just worry that his lack of quickness is going to hurt him at the next level and he may end up being more of a 2 than a 1--or a combo guard at least. Great defensive potential, but I don't buy him as the primary ballhandler yet. I think he'd fit great on a team like Philly where he could be a secondary ballhandler and 3&D PG.


I really worry that this draft goes Fultz/Ball/Fox/Jackson (in some order) and the Kings are left with a bunch of bad options:
a) Picking Isaac or Tatum and hoping DSJ falls to 10
b) Picking Issac or Tatum and then taking Monk/Mitchell at 10 hoping they can transition to PG
c) Taking DSJ at 5 and then taking BPA (probably a big or Mitchell/Monk) at 10

If I'm the Kings I try to work out something with Portland where I take Turner for 1 of their picks (ideally 15) and then use that to move up to 3 or 4 and secure Fox. Then keep the 10 and just pick BPA (big or not). You can grab your SF of the future in next years draft and go from there. Getting BPA at 10 would give you more ammo in next years draft to move up or down.

[Sacramento_King]

I'm getting less worries about the pieces we get out of the draft and the reason for this is our coaching staff has show an ability to work with the players we haven't seen here for a long long time.
I think that also has a lot to do with the relationships Joerger obviously puts in with his players.
I'm not worried about DSJs "defensive issues" or anything like that.
Joerger and his staff from top down has shown already they know how to develop young players, and that was during a year where he played the vets looking for playoffs.
Maybe that was a large part of it, the young ones had to earn it and improve, but one thing he has said from day dot is they will get minutes if the effort on D is there.
I have that much confidence in him Vlade can select whoever and Joerger will find a way to utilise them on D.

I agree with the development side. Joerger just knows how to coach and at times drove me crazy playing vets as much a he did but it aided the development of our youth. Malachi getting hurt and missing end of season really hurt as I would have loved to see him some extended minutes.

[City of Trees]

My current big board for the Kings:

1) Fultz
2) Fox
3) Monk (If you believe he can play PG)
4) Ball
5) Jackson
6) DSJ
7) Isaac
8) Tatum
9) Markannen
10) Ntilikina
11) Mitchell (If you believe he can play PG)
12) Collins
13) Monk (AS SG)
14) Mitchell (AS SG)

My big board (Not Kings related)
1)Fultz
2)Ball
3)Fox
4)Tatum
5)DSJ
6)Jackson
7)Monk
8)Isaac
9)Ntilikina
10)Mitchell (PG)
11)Z. Collins
12)Markannen
13)Giles
14)OG
15)Frank Jackson



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[SacKingZZZ]

I'm getting less worries about the pieces we get out of the draft and the reason for this is our coaching staff has show an ability to work with the players we haven't seen here for a long long time.
I think that also has a lot to do with the relationships Joerger obviously puts in with his players.
I'm not worried about DSJs "defensive issues" or anything like that.
Joerger and his staff from top down has shown already they know how to develop young players, and that was during a year where he played the vets looking for playoffs.
Maybe that was a large part of it, the young ones had to earn it and improve, but one thing he has said from day dot is they will get minutes if the effort on D is there.
I have that much confidence in him Vlade can select whoever and Joerger will find a way to utilise them on D.


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It's what we saw last year, both pre and post rebuild that leads me to believe getting him some really good defensive personnel could be mandatory. In todays no contact on the perimeter NBA if you can't guard the 3 point line and pick and roll you might as well not even show up. Joergers defensive strategy in guarding the 3 point line has rightfully been blasted by pundits IMO and his pick and roll defense won't work without players that can either switch consistently, get over screens, or hedge out and recover to an extreme degree.

[sacking123]

I'm getting less worries about the pieces we get out of the draft and the reason for this is our coaching staff has show an ability to work with the players we haven't seen here for a long long time.
I think that also has a lot to do with the relationships Joerger obviously puts in with his players.
I'm not worried about DSJs "defensive issues" or anything like that.
Joerger and his staff from top down has shown already they know how to develop young players, and that was during a year where he played the vets looking for playoffs.
Maybe that was a large part of it, the young ones had to earn it and improve, but one thing he has said from day dot is they will get minutes if the effort on D is there.
I have that much confidence in him Vlade can select whoever and Joerger will find a way to utilise them on D.


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It's what we saw last year, both pre and post rebuild that leads me to believe getting him some really good defensive personnel could be mandatory. In todays no contact on the perimeter NBA if you can't guard the 3 point line and pick and roll you might as well not even show up. Joergers defensive strategy in guarding the 3 point line has rightfully been blasted by pundits IMO and his pick and roll defense won't work without players that can either switch consistently, get over screens, or hedge out and recover to an extreme degree.

I think it's a good point in regards to the no contact perimeter, however I just believe he will mould this next group how he sees fit and his defensive schemes and structures will be ever changing to fall into line with how they evolve individually and collectively.
Now you do have to have defensive talent, however a lot of Joeegers schemes in Memphis were still effort based with players that weren't heralded as defensive players particularly. Yes they had a couple, however so will we. We have WCS and we need to add another and out of say 4-6 players from this group and next year I am betting we will find one or two.


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[SacKingZZZ]

I'm getting less worries about the pieces we get out of the draft and the reason for this is our coaching staff has show an ability to work with the players we haven't seen here for a long long time.
I think that also has a lot to do with the relationships Joerger obviously puts in with his players.
I'm not worried about DSJs "defensive issues" or anything like that.
Joerger and his staff from top down has shown already they know how to develop young players, and that was during a year where he played the vets looking for playoffs.
Maybe that was a large part of it, the young ones had to earn it and improve, but one thing he has said from day dot is they will get minutes if the effort on D is there.
I have that much confidence in him Vlade can select whoever and Joerger will find a way to utilise them on D.


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It's what we saw last year, both pre and post rebuild that leads me to believe getting him some really good defensive personnel could be mandatory. In todays no contact on the perimeter NBA if you can't guard the 3 point line and pick and roll you might as well not even show up. Joergers defensive strategy in guarding the 3 point line has rightfully been blasted by pundits IMO and his pick and roll defense won't work without players that can either switch consistently, get over screens, or hedge out and recover to an extreme degree.

I think it's a good point in regards to the no contact perimeter, however I just believe he will mould this next group how he sees fit and his defensive schemes and structures will be ever changing to fall into line with how they evolve individually and collectively.
Now you do have to have defensive talent, however a lot of Joeegers schemes in Memphis were still effort based with players that weren't heralded as defensive players particularly. Yes they had a couple, however so will we. We have WCS and we need to add another and out of say 4-6 players from this group and next year I am betting we will find one or two.


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That might be all the Kings need is a couple if they are at primary positions. They had Tony Allen (potentially the best defender in the NBA some years), Marc Gasol, and Mike Conley, it was enough. Still there were also blurbs about their ability to defend the 3 point line and it being a hurdle that they would never get over.

[benchmobbin02]

It's what we saw last year, both pre and post rebuild that leads me to believe getting him some really good defensive personnel could be mandatory. In todays no contact on the perimeter NBA if you can't guard the 3 point line and pick and roll you might as well not even show up. Joergers defensive strategy in guarding the 3 point line has rightfully been blasted by pundits IMO and his pick and roll defense won't work without players that can either switch consistently, get over screens, or hedge out and recover to an extreme degree.

I think it's a good point in regards to the no contact perimeter, however I just believe he will mould this next group how he sees fit and his defensive schemes and structures will be ever changing to fall into line with how they evolve individually and collectively.
Now you do have to have defensive talent, however a lot of Joeegers schemes in Memphis were still effort based with players that weren't heralded as defensive players particularly. Yes they had a couple, however so will we. We have WCS and we need to add another and out of say 4-6 players from this group and next year I am betting we will find one or two.


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That might be all the Kings need is a couple if they are at primary positions. They had Tony Allen (potentially the best defender in the NBA some years), Marc Gasol, and Mike Conley, it was enough. Still there were also blurbs about their ability to defend the 3 point line and it being a hurdle that they would never get over.

Which is one of the reason team length is important. Then you can coach up any player on contesting and balanced disciplined defense and even without being a natural on that side of the ball your team defense will be sound. It what you see from the Warriors right now. Besides Curry, everyone is long or switched into a matchup where their length is at an advantage. Even off the bench, with Iggy, Livingston, West, McGee and Barnes. All those guys have incredible reach advantages at their positions. Really not fair. All teams can do is try to copy them.

[sacking123]

I think it's a good point in regards to the no contact perimeter, however I just believe he will mould this next group how he sees fit and his defensive schemes and structures will be ever changing to fall into line with how they evolve individually and collectively.
Now you do have to have defensive talent, however a lot of Joeegers schemes in Memphis were still effort based with players that weren't heralded as defensive players particularly. Yes they had a couple, however so will we. We have WCS and we need to add another and out of say 4-6 players from this group and next year I am betting we will find one or two.


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That might be all the Kings need is a couple if they are at primary positions. They had Tony Allen (potentially the best defender in the NBA some years), Marc Gasol, and Mike Conley, it was enough. Still there were also blurbs about their ability to defend the 3 point line and it being a hurdle that they would never get over.

Which is one of the reason team length is important. Then you can coach up any player on contesting and balanced disciplined defense and even without being a natural on that side of the ball your team defense will be sound. It what you see from the Warriors right now. Besides Curry, everyone is long or switched into a matchup where their length is at an advantage. Even off the bench, with Iggy, Livingston, West, McGee and Barnes. All those guys have incredible reach advantages at their positions. Really not fair. All teams can do is try to copy them.

I was going to add this, length is the big factor here and I believe we have a good start with WCS and Skal.
Need to get that really long 3 and we won't be too bad.
With Hield it could be really important for the PG to be a good defender though, not just athletic and long.


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[City of Trees]

Could the Kings manipulate the draft forcing Minnesota to trade down?

First 4 goes
Fultz
Ball
Jackson
Fox

At this point Minnesota is praying one of Isaac/Tatum fall. Orlando is sitting at 6 desperate for scoring.

So.... what if the Kings draft Isaac at 5, leaving Orlando to take the best scorer in Tatum at 6. Now at 7 Minnesota has no wing to pick from, a trade down to 10 should be in order. Boom. Kings move up to 7 and draft DSJ.

Oh hey SacKingzzz, I think Isaac/DSJ fit your team structure requirements haha.

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[benchmobbin02]

That might be all the Kings need is a couple if they are at primary positions. They had Tony Allen (potentially the best defender in the NBA some years), Marc Gasol, and Mike Conley, it was enough. Still there were also blurbs about their ability to defend the 3 point line and it being a hurdle that they would never get over.

Which is one of the reason team length is important. Then you can coach up any player on contesting and balanced disciplined defense and even without being a natural on that side of the ball your team defense will be sound. It what you see from the Warriors right now. Besides Curry, everyone is long or switched into a matchup where their length is at an advantage. Even off the bench, with Iggy, Livingston, West, McGee and Barnes. All those guys have incredible reach advantages at their positions. Really not fair. All teams can do is try to copy them.

I was going to add this, length is the big factor here and I believe we have a good start with WCS and Skal.
Need to get that really long 3 and we won't be too bad.
With Hield it could be really important for the PG to be a good defender though, not just athletic and long.


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Klay wasn't a good defender coming in the league. Just long and learned how to play with the team in group defense. Plus is switched to better length advantage matchups in many cases.

[SacKingZZZ]

That might be all the Kings need is a couple if they are at primary positions. They had Tony Allen (potentially the best defender in the NBA some years), Marc Gasol, and Mike Conley, it was enough. Still there were also blurbs about their ability to defend the 3 point line and it being a hurdle that they would never get over.

Which is one of the reason team length is important. Then you can coach up any player on contesting and balanced disciplined defense and even without being a natural on that side of the ball your team defense will be sound. It what you see from the Warriors right now. Besides Curry, everyone is long or switched into a matchup where their length is at an advantage. Even off the bench, with Iggy, Livingston, West, McGee and Barnes. All those guys have incredible reach advantages at their positions. Really not fair. All teams can do is try to copy them.

I was going to add this, length is the big factor here and I believe we have a good start with WCS and Skal.
Need to get that really long 3 and we won't be too bad.
With Hield it could be really important for the PG to be a good defender though, not just athletic and long.


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I agree, and that's my main concern with someone like DSJ, because he hasn't shown much of anything as a defender and he's a classic brickhouse stubby PG. That doesn't mean he's doomed or anything just from his physical makeup of course, he's probably somewhat similar to Kyle Lowry physically and he has had a presence defensively in his career.

Length can factor for sure, but there was a previous thread where I pointed out that excessive length isn't necessarily key, especially at SF if many of the last few years worth of defensively worthy players are considered. I think the most important factor is the ability to find defensively versatile players that can cover more than one match up. And yes, size, length and physicality will be a factor in how that would be able to play out. Which goes back to my concern with DSJ/Buddy. Buddy has some good length, size wise he's average, but I haven't seen the ability yet that says he'll be able to switch onto the ball against craftier ball handlers. We are seeing what happens when a team like Golden State just waits for the match up they want off of screens. Kyrie gets switched onto a post player because he's not a great pick and roll defender and they take the easiest route, they help, they get destroyed from outside.

The two PG's in this draft that look like ideal partners for Buddy are Mitchell and Ntilikina. I just think it might be more worth it to find the most bang for your buck as opposed to what looks best sitting on the shelf. The question would be, how much does someone like DSJ or Buddy or Tatum help your team getting 8-9 shots a game? We've seen Buddy in that situation with the Pels already. Not great so far.

I will say though, that I do think Tatum will be a solid defender eventually.