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Draft Discussion Part 3

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Who would you rather have, Jackson or Tatum?

Jackson
44
80%
Tatum
11
20%
 
Total votes: 55

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Re: Draft Discussion Part 3 

Post#681 » by JMac1 » Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:32 pm

1UPZ wrote:Spree and Houston combo was one of the better paired SGs that worked well. Kobe and Eddie Jones another.

Josh Jackson fixes defense and ball movement IMO so he's my first choice... Maybe tied with Ball.


I want Jackson for his energy and attitude. He plays with fire. I think he needs to work on his handles and shooting. I just hopes he turns out to be Iggy with slightly better offense. I think he'll be a 16-18pt guy with 8-9 rebs and 6 asst.

We need a straight shooter at some point, who when he misses an open three, we are shocked........


Edit: still don't think he is going to be there.....
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 3 

Post#682 » by Frank Lee » Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:34 pm

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Re: Draft Discussion Part 3 

Post#683 » by WeekapaugGroove » Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:41 pm

The spreewell comp for Jackson is good one. I also saw someone on another board throw out stephen jackson as a comp for josh I like that too. Not that its some ground breaking take but jackson falling is my favorite scenario.

Now if he's not there at 4 as much as a personally like isaac I've really warmed on taking fox with the qualifier that it would be combined with a bledsoe trade. I love his attitude and its important your pg is a leader. I also think he fits a running style they want to play and will be good on the break from day 1. He needs work in the half court but the suns can take some of that off his shoulders by having booker initiate some of the p&r and i think the suns should let bender run some o out of the high post. I even like his paring with ulis because you would have an identify of running 48 minutes of fast as hell pgs who are going to run on o and pressure the ball on d. Lastly this might be their best shot at finding their long term pg so that opportunity might be too much to pass up even for two good and safer prospects in isaac or Tatum.

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Re: Draft Discussion Part 3 

Post#684 » by WeekapaugGroove » Sun Jun 11, 2017 3:37 pm

With Tatum I think the big question is do the suns believe he can be average to above average defensively. If the answer is no then you can't take him. Booker will never be a good defender so if youre below average defensively at both the wing spots your simply not setting yourself up for long term sucess.

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Re: Draft Discussion Part 3 

Post#685 » by ImNotMcDiSwear » Sun Jun 11, 2017 3:47 pm

WeekapaugGroove wrote:The spreewell comp for Jackson is good one. I also saw someone on another board throw out stephen jackson as a comp for josh I like that too. Not that its some ground breaking take but jackson falling is my favorite scenario.

Now if he's not there at 4 as much as a personally like isaac I've really warmed on taking fox with the qualifier that it would be combined with a bledsoe trade. I love his attitude and its important your pg is a leader. I also think he fits a running style they want to play and will be good on the break from day 1. He needs work in the half court but the suns can take some of that off his shoulders by having booker initiate some of the p&r and i think the suns should let bender run some o out of the high post. I even like his paring with ulis because you would have an identify of running 48 minutes of fast as hell pgs who are going to run on o and pressure the ball on d. Lastly this might be their best shot at finding their long term pg so that opportunity might be too much to pass up even for two good and safer prospects in isaac or Tatum.

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I think there's a fair chance that Jackson falls to us, whether because Philly identifies Fox, Tatum or Isaac as the best pick or because Philly and Boston trade #3 for #1 and Boston makes the same calculation. I think that empirically, Tatum is likely BPA over Jackson because of his physical profile, smooth shooting and his repertoire of NBA moves. I also think it is feasible that Isaac gets identified as the player with the highest ceiling due to his potential on both ends. Despite the fact that I think Tatum is likely the third best prospect, I hate him as a fit with us for reasons I've discussed. That said, he's no lower than sixth on my board, ahead of Isaac and in the discussion for me at #4 along with Jackson, Fox and Collins (yes, my love is unabated).

Like you, I think Fox could work well next to Ulis as well as Booker. I think Fox will be able to guard most 2s in time, and I think that his proclivity as a scorer can be utilized at the 2 as well as the 1 on offense, provided (a) he has shooters around him and/or (b) he becomes at least respectable as a shooter. I like him as the third piece of our backcourt of the future - Booker, Ulis and Player X.

If we draft Fox, I agree that trading Bledsoe immediately makes the most sense. If we draft Tatum, we may be in a similar spot with TJ. TJ may, in any event, be the piece on our roster that ultimately doesn't fit whether we draft Fox, Jackson, Isaac or Tatum. The respect in which TJ is most deficient, IMO, is playmaking. Offensively, he's one of those players who generally needs the ball on the move. He has elite finishing skills, and his versatility as a mid-range scorer is incredible. His defense is uneven - he has talented hands and instincts on the ball, but his conditioning has not always been the best, his footspeed is below average, and he can lose concentration (on both ends), actually.

If anyone would have benefited as much as or more than Booker from the addition of Lonzo, it was TJ. I think Lonzo's passing ability could have tapped into a lot more of TJ's potential than we've seen. But taking Fox is a move in the direction of the guard-oriented offense we've deployed with little success the last few years. Taking Tatum is a move toward a slow, deliberate approach that has typically only won titles for teams that were elite defensively as well as offensively. Neither suits TJ well, I think.
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 3 

Post#686 » by JMac1 » Sun Jun 11, 2017 3:51 pm

WeekapaugGroove wrote:The spreewell comp for Jackson is good one. I also saw someone on another board throw out stephen jackson as a comp for josh I like that too. Not that its some ground breaking take but jackson falling is my favorite scenario.

Now if he's not there at 4 as much as a personally like isaac I've really warmed on taking fox with the qualifier that it would be combined with a bledsoe trade. I love his attitude and its important your pg is a leader. I also think he fits a running style they want to play and will be good on the break from day 1. He needs work in the half court but the suns can take some of that off his shoulders by having booker initiate some of the p&r and i think the suns should let bender run some o out of the high post. I even like his paring with ulis because you would have an identify of running 48 minutes of fast as hell pgs who are going to run on o and pressure the ball on d. Lastly this might be their best shot at finding their long term pg so that opportunity might be too much to pass up even for two good and safer prospects in isaac or Tatum.

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Yea. Taking Fox would be solid knowing Bledsoe isn't the future, however, do you take a PG when he isn't BPA just for the sake of the former....
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 3 

Post#687 » by dremill24 » Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:09 pm

JMac1 wrote:
1UPZ wrote:Spree and Houston combo was one of the better paired SGs that worked well. Kobe and Eddie Jones another.

Josh Jackson fixes defense and ball movement IMO so he's my first choice... Maybe tied with Ball.


I want Jackson for his energy and attitude. He plays with fire. I think he needs to work on his handles and shooting. I just hopes he turns out to be Iggy with slightly better offense.I think he'll be a 16-18pt guy with 8-9 rebs and 6 asst.

We need a straight shooter at some point, who when he misses an open three, we are shocked........


Edit: still don't think he is going to be there.....



You know the only guys that do that are LeBron, Westbrook, Oscar, Bird, Jordan, etc. right?
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 3 

Post#688 » by JMac1 » Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:18 pm

dremill24 wrote:
JMac1 wrote:
1UPZ wrote:Spree and Houston combo was one of the better paired SGs that worked well. Kobe and Eddie Jones another.

Josh Jackson fixes defense and ball movement IMO so he's my first choice... Maybe tied with Ball.


I want Jackson for his energy and attitude. He plays with fire. I think he needs to work on his handles and shooting. I just hopes he turns out to be Iggy with slightly better offense.I think he'll be a 16-18pt guy with 8-9 rebs and 6 asst.

Oh...what did Marion do?

We need a straight shooter at some point, who when he misses an open three, we are shocked........


Edit: still don't think he is going to be there.....



You know the only guys that do that are LeBron, Westbrook, Oscar, Bird, Jordan, etc. right?
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 3 

Post#689 » by JMac1 » Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:19 pm

dremill24 wrote:
JMac1 wrote:
1UPZ wrote:Spree and Houston combo was one of the better paired SGs that worked well. Kobe and Eddie Jones another.

Josh Jackson fixes defense and ball movement IMO so he's my first choice... Maybe tied with Ball.


I want Jackson for his energy and attitude. He plays with fire. I think he needs to work on his handles and shooting. I just hopes he turns out to be Iggy with slightly better offense.I think he'll be a 16-18pt guy with 8-9 rebs and 6 asst.

We need a straight shooter at some point, who when he misses an open three, we are shocked........


Edit: still don't think he is going to be there.....



You know the only guys that do that are LeBron, Westbrook, Oscar, Bird, Jordan, etc. right?



Hmmmm...what did Marion do?

Off 1-2 asst. hang me...smh

Edit: you know Iggy average 6.5 rebs 5.8 asrs and 17.1 points in 2009-10... my bad 1.5 rebs off....smh
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Re: RE: Re: Draft Discussion Part 3 

Post#690 » by WeekapaugGroove » Sun Jun 11, 2017 5:26 pm

JMac1 wrote:
WeekapaugGroove wrote:The spreewell comp for Jackson is good one. I also saw someone on another board throw out stephen jackson as a comp for josh I like that too. Not that its some ground breaking take but jackson falling is my favorite scenario.

Now if he's not there at 4 as much as a personally like isaac I've really warmed on taking fox with the qualifier that it would be combined with a bledsoe trade. I love his attitude and its important your pg is a leader. I also think he fits a running style they want to play and will be good on the break from day 1. He needs work in the half court but the suns can take some of that off his shoulders by having booker initiate some of the p&r and i think the suns should let bender run some o out of the high post. I even like his paring with ulis because you would have an identify of running 48 minutes of fast as hell pgs who are going to run on o and pressure the ball on d. Lastly this might be their best shot at finding their long term pg so that opportunity might be too much to pass up even for two good and safer prospects in isaac or Tatum.

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Yea. Taking Fox would be solid knowing Bledsoe isn't the future, however, do you take a PG when he isn't BPA just for the sake of the former....

No. If they think Tatum and/or isaac are clearly better prospects then you take them. But imo those guys are very closely ranked.

Where I do differ in option is I don't think it would be completely necessary to trade warren if they pick tatum. Those wing and forward spots are more interchangeable and you could get away with playing them together some. You can find minutes and opportunities for both.

I view pg development differently. To me its so important for a young pg that they have the opportunity to take the reigns early and establish it as their team. Sure you could play them together but imo it would stunt Fox's development. Plus I just don't want the 'when will they trade Bledsoe' hovering over this team for the next year. If you go the pg route then go all in on it and don't look back. And if youre not comfortable turning the keys over then you shouldn't be taking that guy in the top 5.

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Re: RE: Re: Draft Discussion Part 3 

Post#691 » by JMac1 » Sun Jun 11, 2017 6:00 pm

WeekapaugGroove wrote:
JMac1 wrote:
WeekapaugGroove wrote:The spreewell comp for Jackson is good one. I also saw someone on another board throw out stephen jackson as a comp for josh I like that too. Not that its some ground breaking take but jackson falling is my favorite scenario.

Now if he's not there at 4 as much as a personally like isaac I've really warmed on taking fox with the qualifier that it would be combined with a bledsoe trade. I love his attitude and its important your pg is a leader. I also think he fits a running style they want to play and will be good on the break from day 1. He needs work in the half court but the suns can take some of that off his shoulders by having booker initiate some of the p&r and i think the suns should let bender run some o out of the high post. I even like his paring with ulis because you would have an identify of running 48 minutes of fast as hell pgs who are going to run on o and pressure the ball on d. Lastly this might be their best shot at finding their long term pg so that opportunity might be too much to pass up even for two good and safer prospects in isaac or Tatum.

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Yea. Taking Fox would be solid knowing Bledsoe isn't the future, however, do you take a PG when he isn't BPA just for the sake of the former....

No. If they think Tatum and/or isaac are clearly better prospects then you take them. But imo those guys are very closely ranked.

Where I do differ in option is I don't think it would be completely necessary to trade warren if they pick tatum. Those wing and forward spots are more interchangeable and you could get away with playing them together some. You can find minutes and opportunities for both.

I view pg development differently. To me its so important for a young pg that they have the opportunity to take the reigns early and establish it as their team. Sure you could play them together but imo it would stunt Fox's development. Plus I just don't want the 'when will they trade Bledsoe' hovering over this team for the next year. If you go the pg route then go all in on it and don't look back. And if youre not comfortable turning the keys over then you shouldn't be taking that guy in the top 5.

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I know...I don't know why a lot here feel as though TJ needs to be traded or Tatum need not be drafted because they play or may play similar roles. Draft BPA and go from there.......if not, you end up with Kieff instead of Kawhi.
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Re: RE: Re: Draft Discussion Part 3 

Post#692 » by Waylay13 » Sun Jun 11, 2017 6:25 pm

JMac1 wrote:I know...I don't know why a lot here feel as though TJ needs to be traded or Tatum need not be drafted because they play or may play similar roles. Draft BPA and go from there.......if not, you end up with Kieff instead of Kawhi.


If you draft Tatum both him and TJ are mid range ISO players who are good rebounders and so so defenders and they both play the same position. ISO or isolation means that you clear out a side of the court so that the player can score one on one. if the other team can layoff some other team members it can make it harder to score in ISO and since you cant ISO two players and both Tatum and Warren are not good spot up shooter there might be a little redundancy there.
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Re: RE: Re: Draft Discussion Part 3 

Post#693 » by ImNotMcDiSwear » Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:04 pm

Waylay13 wrote:
JMac1 wrote:I know...I don't know why a lot here feel as though TJ needs to be traded or Tatum need not be drafted because they play or may play similar roles. Draft BPA and go from there.......if not, you end up with Kieff instead of Kawhi.


If you draft Tatum both him and TJ are mid range ISO players who are good rebounders and so so defenders and they both play the same position. ISO or isolation means that you clear out a side of the court so that the player can score one on one. if the other team can layoff some other team members it can make it harder to score in ISO and since you cant ISO two players and both Tatum and Warren are not good spot up shooter there might be a little redundancy there.


I don't understand these assertions that TJ is an ISO player or that he needs the ball in his hands to be effective. If anything, the opposite is true. I guess you could say he needs to score to be very useful, but he doesn't need the ball in his hands much to finish, and he's at his best when he catches on the move, a la Amare or Marion. He's not a great ballhandler or passer.

Tatum and TJ are different in the ISO respect, but also in terms of their range - I think Tatum will set up with his three ball as his primary weapon, not the mid-range. I think TJ will turn out to be the better perimeter defender, Tatum the better rebounder and passer. Tatum's clearly the better prospect at this point. I can see why we'd take him, despite the weird fit.
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 3 

Post#694 » by Saberestar » Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:34 pm

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One month ago I was hoping to find Kennard available at #32, because he was projected as a late first round pick at that moment.
Now, it seems that he is gonna be a lottery pick for sure.

IDK, I like his game but his physical limitations are a big concern to me. He is smart and has a great footwork and shooting, but he is gonna be challenged defensively every single night. Similar to Stauskas in that regard to me but probably Kennard is craftier with the ball and a better playmaker.
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 3 

Post#695 » by sunsbum » Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:31 pm

I like Kennard too, he kinda reminds me of a Danny Ainge type of dude
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 3 

Post#696 » by thamadkant » Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:57 pm

Tatum has talent but wont fit with what Suns are trying to do... If he can become Durant like offensively rather than Melo meaning he doesnt hold the ball longer than 5 seconds or go ISO inside then he might fit bettee but thats not his strength.
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 3 

Post#697 » by DirtyDez » Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:46 am

So no official measurements for us to look at other than HS all star games and college measurements that are skewed. I'd like to know Isaac's reach if he can play the 5 at times and JJ/Tatum's wingspan. The team's have them but us fans are important too. :)

Monk having the only "open" workout/interview makes me believe Gambo's report of trying to move down. If they can swindle a future 1st from Orl-Ny-Min a grab Isaac at #6-8 is my best case.
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 3 

Post#698 » by darealjuice » Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:08 am

Medina posted an article on some notes from the Lakers' workouts, and apparently DSJ put up a 48 inch vertical leap in their workout. I heard on a podcast that his wingspan came out to 6'5" in a recent measurement too. Curious how true some of it is, but those are some very favorable measurements if true.

He also said that the Lakers thought Ball came into their workout a bit out of shape.
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 3 

Post#699 » by sunsbum » Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:24 am

DirtyDez wrote:So no official measurements for us to look at other than HS all star games and college measurements that are skewed. I'd like to know Isaac's reach if he can play the 5 at times and JJ/Tatum's wingspan. The team's have them but us fans are important too. :)

Monk having the only "open" workout/interview makes me believe Gambo's report of trying to move down. If they can swindle a future 1st from Orl-Ny-Min a grab Isaac at #6-8 is my best case.


If they are talking about trading down I would put money on Collins being their target.
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 3 

Post#700 » by JMac1 » Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:52 am

sunsbum wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:So no official measurements for us to look at other than HS all star games and college measurements that are skewed. I'd like to know Isaac's reach if he can play the 5 at times and JJ/Tatum's wingspan. The team's have them but us fans are important too. :)

Monk having the only "open" workout/interview makes me believe Gambo's report of trying to move down. If they can swindle a future 1st from Orl-Ny-Min a grab Isaac at #6-8 is my best case.


If they are talking about trading down I would put money on Collins being their target.


If we trade down it better be for 2 picks in the top ten and the first better be at least number 6 otherwise it's a gutless move.

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