2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV

[AdotSmoove]

Fultz got a scary (in a bad way) motor. And as a PG you've got to have great motor to compensate for lack of length. That's why he settles on jumpers on offense and doesnt seems locked in on D.

Fultz has a 6'9 wingspan though...


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[Kobblehead]

I'm happy for Luke Kennard, seeing his stock rise to the point where he's getting Top 10 consideration. I think he's highly probable to be a good player in this league. Just not my type of player.

[SelfishPlayer]

2 inches doesn't make that much of a difference, especially if he's paired with a big pg, the effect is gone, hell, Philly fans of all people should know about undersized shooting guards, you had a 6'0 MVP shooting guard. They paired him with big pgs and went to the Finals.

Yeah but Allen Iverson was drafted as a PG and played PG at an All Star level. Monk didn't play PG at all in college and doesn't look capable. PG is a more valuable position than short shooting guard. You do not draft a short shooting guard high in the draft. Besides when you start comparing the former #1 pick in the draft and hall of famer to someone that may not go top 5, you are traveling down the wrong road. Lou Williams, Jamal Murray, Shawn Respert, and Tony Delk are some short shooting guards that deserve to be in conversation with Monk more than Iverson.

But BS is the PG. The argument is that Monk can guard the PGs so Simmons won't have to which also happens to mitigate Monk's size issue. Two inches won't stop Monk from getting his shot off on the other end.

Also everyone compares Monk to LouWill. It took sweet Lou a long time to reach the level he is at and partially because LouWill is not athletic. Sweet Lou was also not a prolific jump shooter coming in, he was just a shot creator from mid range in - very much like AI.

Monk isn't that type of player. He may still be best suited for 6th man, but he certainly has the athletic potential to become a very good perimeter defender. Like JJ Reddick is 1 inch taller, has an average wingspan and is just barely athletic enough to make a living in the NBA as a starter. And you mean to tell me Monk can't start and is doomed to 6th man status because he's 6'3?

What Monk is is a mix of LouWill for swag, Jamal Murray for the stroke and Nate Robinson for the hops. He may not put it all together but he has a natural touch and the athleticism to be as good as he wants to be. The only reason I don't take Monk at 3 is because we have the kings trade lined up: #3 + Okafor + Furkan for 5+10. (Furkan is just a sweetener)


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Ben Simmons is a point forward, and Lou Williams isn't athletic? He has one of the best first steps in the business.

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if the Sixers draft Monk at #3 and do not make any more additions, what would be your prefered starting lineup next season?

[76ciology]

Monk fits well in a klay thompson role. Scoring off ball and spot ups, in volume with efficiency.

[51X3RF4N]

Fultz got a scary (in a bad way) motor. And as a PG you've got to have great motor to compensate for lack of length. That's why he settles on jumpers on offense and doesnt seems locked in on D.

Fultz has a 6'9 wingspan though...


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I personally think Kelle will have a great motor in the NBA. He compares himself to Russ, and I've seen others make that comparison too. If he applied a strong work ethic to his tools, he can be special. And when he has Simmons controlling the flow, and Embiid there to bail him out too...i truly think they could be dynamic.

That said, I don't see Fultz ever donning a Sixers uniform. But hey, ya never know.

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[Kobblehead]

Fultz has a 6'9 wingspan though...

He's talking about a lack of length in a general sense in comparison with wings and bigs. It's much harder for a G to exert his will and dominate a playoff series than it is for an elite wing or big. Especially one that lacks the physical tools and aggression to be a relentless attacker.

[Kobblehead]

I personally think Kelle will have a great motor in the NBA. He compares himself to Russ, and I've seen others make that comparison too. If he applied a strong work ethic to his tools, he can be special. And when he has Simmons controlling the flow, and Embiid there to bail him out too...i truly think they could be dynamic.

That said, I don't see Fultz ever donning a Sixers uniform. But hey, ya never know.

Hopefully he means D'Angelo Russ. Because if he actually thinks he and Russell Westbrook share similarities, he has no self-awareness.

[76ciology]

Fultz has a 6'9 wingspan though...

He's talking about a lack of length in a general sense in comparison with wings and bigs. It's much harder for a G to exert his will and dominate a playoff series than it is for an elite wing or big. Especially one that lacks the physical tools and aggression to be a relentless attacker.

Exactly.

You can say he's just "smooth" that he doesn't look aggressive but HE JUST SETTLES ON TOO MANY CONTESTED JUMPERS and HE FREQUENTLY TURNS OFF HIS MOTOR ON D.

Kind of reminds me of how I play ball. So I know he's lazy like me hahaha

[LloydFree]

Fultz has a 6'9 wingspan though...

He's talking about a lack of length in a general sense in comparison with wings and bigs. It's much harder for a G to exert his will and dominate a playoff series than it is for an elite wing or big. Especially one that lacks the physical tools and aggression to be a relentless attacker.

Exactly.

You can say he's just "smooth" that he doesn't look aggressive but HE JUST SETTLES ON TOO MANY CONTESTED JUMPERS and HE FREQUENTLY TURNS OFF HIS MOTOR ON D.

Kind of reminds me of how I play ball. So I know he's lazy like me hahaha

I don't think he's lazy. He's just slow and doesn't have elite quickness or lateral movement.

[Kobblehead]

I'm not even a D'Aaron Fox guy, but there are going to be nights where he physically takes over a game. Fultz probably won't be able to do that. He'll score in volume and with great proficiency on some nights, perhaps offering a similar effect. But he won't exert his will like a guy with elite physical tools and aggression is able to.

As a Dlo fan in 2015, I had to acknowledge a similar reality.

[76ers 2020]

Hopefully he means D'Angelo Russ. Because if he actually thinks he and Russell Westbrook share similarities, he has no self-awareness.

Yeah the link that got posted said he would compare his game to Russell Westbrook and Jamal Crawford. Andre Drummond was asked that question before he was drafted and answered Kevin Durant. This after shooting 29% on free throws in college.

[SelfishPlayer]

Malik Monk, Jamal Murray, Jodie Meeks, Tony Delk...

[Negrodamus]

Donovan Mitchell, 6’2” sophomore guard, Louisville
“Absolutely love him. His athleticism and wing span are intriguing. He can cover a lot of the floor. If he can get a consistent jump shot I think he has the chance. High character young man, strong calves and lower body. Improving three-point shooter. I think he can be a lottery pick. Didn’t measure well height-wise, but he has a 6’10” wing span so it doesn’t matter.”

I'm not sure what's really separating Monk and Ball from Mitchell. At worst, he's going to be a 3 and D role player, something we desperately need from our back court. He's ceiling is going to be Bradley Beal with defense, which is an extraordinary player.

On top of that, he can play right away. Next season, at the very least, we will throw him out there and lock down the opposing PG/SG. Since he's only 20 years old (like Jackson) he has plenty of time to expand on his game and become a much better ball handler (even though he's not bad right now).

[51X3RF4N]

Donovan Mitchell, 6’2” sophomore guard, Louisville
“Absolutely love him. His athleticism and wing span are intriguing. He can cover a lot of the floor. If he can get a consistent jump shot I think he has the chance. High character young man, strong calves and lower body. Improving three-point shooter. I think he can be a lottery pick. Didn’t measure well height-wise, but he has a 6’10” wing span so it doesn’t matter.”

I'm not sure what's really separating Monk and Ball from Mitchell. At worst, he's going to be a 3 and D role player, something we desperately need from our back court. He's ceiling is going to be Bradley Beal with defense, which is an extraordinary player.

On top of that, he can play right away. Next season, at the very least, we will throw him out there and lock down the opposing PG/SG. Since he's only 20 years old (like Jackson) he has plenty of time to expand on his game and become a much better ball handler (even though he's not bad right now).

So do you try to trade back with anyone in the 8-12 range to get him and pick up extra assets?

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[HotelVitale]

I'm not sure what's really separating Monk and Ball from Mitchell. At worst, he's going to be a 3 and D role player, something we desperately need from our back court. He's ceiling is going to be Bradley Beal with defense, which is an extraordinary player..

I like Mitchell but there are worse realistic outcomes than a good 3 and D guy. It's far from a sure thing that he'll be able to make constant impact as a shooter, defender, or driver so it's a dice roll; I can easily see him ending up as an okay defender and a 41%fg/32% 3pt shooter, and that's not going to get you any burn on a real team. I agree he's got nice upside--Beal is pushing it but I get how he could be a good starter--just that there's also plenty of opportunity for him to be a total washout. (Also I hate obsessing too much over exact age but Mitchell turns 21 before next season, misleading to say he's the same age as many current freshmen who are 6+ months younger than him).

[Negrodamus]

I'm not sure what's really separating Monk and Ball from Mitchell. At worst, he's going to be a 3 and D role player, something we desperately need from our back court. He's ceiling is going to be Bradley Beal with defense, which is an extraordinary player..

I like Mitchell but there are worse realistic outcomes than a good 3 and D guy. It's far from a sure thing that he'll be able to make constant impact as a shooter, defender, or driver so it's a dice roll; I can easily see him ending up as an okay defender and a 41%fg/32% 3pt shooter, and that's not going to get you any burn on a real team. I agree he's got nice upside--Beal is pushing it but I get how he could be a good starter--just that there's also plenty of opportunity for him to be a total washout.

Sure, and I can see the bottom falling out on all of these prospects. I don't think that's reserved for just Mitchell.

But if you look at his full body of work as a prospect, I don't think it's a stretch that his floor is a very good 3 and D:

Wingspan is 6'10.
Fastest 3/4 sprint at the combine; 5th highest vert (best in standing vert)
Top 15 in the country in steals in the best conference in the country.
His team was noticeably worse on defense when he was off the court.
He defended the other teams best wing player (ie, Tatum while against Duke)
His D stats are better than almost anyone in the top 10.

So I'd lean on the side of him being a very good defender in the league over not. He also did all of this while being the primary scorer, so he wasn't taking plays off to catch his breath. On top of all of that, he was 54.5 on unguarded catch and shoot 3s. I think that's the definition of 3 and D.

EDIT: Also, Josh Jackson will be 21 in the middle of his rookie season, so what's the difference?

[HotelVitale]

Exactly. You can say he's just "smooth" that he doesn't look aggressive but HE JUST SETTLES ON TOO MANY CONTESTED JUMPERS and HE FREQUENTLY TURNS OFF HIS MOTOR ON D. Kind of reminds me of how I play ball. So I know he's lazy like me hahaha

I don't think he's lazy. He's just slow and doesn't have elite quickness or lateral movement.

Agree that it's not about being 'lazy' but I'm genuinely uncertain about what to make of his slow-mo game. He definitely doesn't have a solid first step but he can sometimes play pretty fast and use his athleticism/length once he's in the lane, and he doesn't need a good iso game to succeed with his skillset and size. But he also rarely speeds up and seems uncomfortable moving outside of his lazy (or 'smooth' if you want to like him) mode; as I've said before, I tend to think it's more of a skill thing--his IQ, balance, coordination, etc gets shaky when he moves quickly--which means you're gambling on him learning how to play more quickly.

Harden managed to speed up brilliantly well in the NBA so it's not outside the realm of possibility, but it's also obviously hard to do. And if he can't do it his game's going to be really limited and rely on really tough shots. He could also master a kind of probing in-between game where he's either shooting pull-ups (assuming he can develop a reliable pull-up 3) or diving to the cup if he gets a lane. There are possibilities for him given his size and skills, but the path is rockier than lotta folks seem to think.

[Negrodamus]

Donovan Mitchell, 6’2” sophomore guard, Louisville
“Absolutely love him. His athleticism and wing span are intriguing. He can cover a lot of the floor. If he can get a consistent jump shot I think he has the chance. High character young man, strong calves and lower body. Improving three-point shooter. I think he can be a lottery pick. Didn’t measure well height-wise, but he has a 6’10” wing span so it doesn’t matter.”

I'm not sure what's really separating Monk and Ball from Mitchell. At worst, he's going to be a 3 and D role player, something we desperately need from our back court. He's ceiling is going to be Bradley Beal with defense, which is an extraordinary player.

On top of that, he can play right away. Next season, at the very least, we will throw him out there and lock down the opposing PG/SG. Since he's only 20 years old (like Jackson) he has plenty of time to expand on his game and become a much better ball handler (even though he's not bad right now).

So do you try to trade back with anyone in the 8-12 range to get him and pick up extra assets?

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With Jonathan Isaac having asthma, a slight frame, and a beta personality, I don't see him in the mix at 3. I definitely don't see Monk or Ball at 3 despite what so many want. I'm deathly afraid of DSJ and Fultz for very similar reasons (effort, injury past, lack of success, coach killers).

The only players that are worthy of the 3 spot in my opinion are: Fox, Tatum, Jackson, Mitchell, and probably Zach Collins because they provide elite skills for the modern NBA.

So trade down? I'm not sure. We certainly need to consolidate assets at a certain point.

[SelfishPlayer]

it's only on the Sixers forum that I have ever seen 3 & D applying to point guards, and combo guards under 6'4". Why? Because people don't draft sub 6'4" guys to be defenders. They aren't long enough in both wingspan and standing reach. I think that these people espousing this concept are really trying to draft a Marcus Smart and Bradley. Drafting a non rim protector to guard less than three positions is not wise. A sub 6'4" player shutting down the top PGs is such an unrealistic goal. It's easier to simply draft an NBA All Star.

[HotelVitale]

Wingspan is 6'10.
Fastest 3/4 sprint at the combine; 5th highest vert (best in standing vert)
Top 15 in the country in steals in the best conference in the country.
His team was noticeably worse on defense when he was off the court.
He defended the other teams best wing player (ie, Tatum while against Duke)
His D stats are better than almost anyone in the top 10..

Right, but there are also reasons not to make too much of that:
--Wasn't a very good shooter this year, was even worse the year before; has no record of being a solid enough shooter to pencil him in as one in the NBA--when the shots are further, the defense closes out harder, and the pace is so much quicker (though his stroke looks good enough)
--Doesn't have a clear offensive game; not good enough at anything that you're pretty sure he'll step right in and be able to drive or shoot stepbacks or anything else
--Because of the ball movement, pn'r, pace-and-space game, perimeter/non-big man D is less important in the NBA and you have to a stellar NBA defender to make a big difference; just being a solid, above average NBA wing defender isn't going to get you minutes on a decent team unless you're also holding your own on offense
--his D stats still aren't awesome (it's more that those of Ball, Monk, Fultz, DSJ, Markannen, etc are really bad for top-10 guys); his steal % is nice, but again it's not incredible (it's maybe somewhere between 30-40 in the NCAA this year?), not enough to suggest he'll come in and tear it up on D right away

I'm not trying to be devil's advocate, just honestly think he's a full gamble you're making based on good size/athleticism plus some peripheral skills. Really wouldn't be surprised at all if he doesn't end up making a rotation, and I'd say his most likely outcome is as a sort of spot starter (though he could obviously be better).