Draft Discussion Part 3

[Zelaznyrules]

All the roster shuffling drama can be avoided by moving down a spot or two and picking Markkanen or Collins. Let Len walk, sign Williams. Time to realize there are no real needle movers. Fultz may be... but its a huge may be. Same for Ball. The rest, basically 3-10, all have plus/minus qualities and no real stand out.

Dont swing for the fences when you are 4 runs down. Pick a building block here. I can't see any downside at all taking one of those two bigs. I could give a rats rear about Laurie's lack of D.... let that kid bomb away and teams have to adjust to him. And Collins looks like the most complete two way big on the board. As mentioned over and over.... we are only competing for the 8th seed this year.

BPA is so subjective. You have to start thinking of roster fit with such a homogenous group. If McD can move down and glean a pick swap next year or some other asset, you know he will be considering it.

Those are the less exciting players in the entire lottery from this draft IMO. After all the tanking last season, that would be sad.

Monk, Fox, Tatum, Isaac, Jackson...whoever before an slow and unathletic (yeah, for the NBA standards) seven footer.

Markkanen was clearly the most impactful player on the court in almost every game he played this season at Arizona. He isn't the glamor pick that some of the others are but for the life of me I can't figure out why. I think his flaws have been overstated (slow feet, short arms etc) but even if they weren't, his strength is the single most important strength a player can have in the NBA.

All these guys have high potential but IMO Markkanen is more likely to destroy his floor and at least approach his ceiling than the other prospects in the top 10. I wouldn't be surprised to see a lesser regarded player drafted in the teens or even lower that eventually surpasses Lauri but I'd bet that he outpaces almost every other lottery prospect. He's the safe pick but he's also the smart pick.

I also think Zach has a great chance of nearing his potential but his sample size and the quality of opponent worry me. Hopefully a good workout will reveal or alleviate some concerns regarding his "heavy feet" and BB instincts.

[Fo-Real]

If we were to trade our pick and another asset to say the Kings for 5 and 10, of the centers I know skillset wise Collins, Allen and others are rated ahead of him, but I really like Justin Patton. I think the kid has it, even though im not sure what it is. He has great feet, great size, good touch, handles the ball well, and just looks like he can grow into a really good C.

[DRK]

Booker has shown he can play lead guard for us. I really think McD could try and create a scoring-machine backcourt with Monk and Bledsoe- both gunners who can catch fire.
I really like Monk, yes I know he draws comparisons to Brandon Knight, but frankly I dont see all that similarities. Monk is a much better finisher at the rim, and is more athletic.

I see abit of Steph Curry in Monk's game- just an elite scorer with amazing scoring instincts and a great shot off the dribble with limitless range.

If we can nab the #7 from Minne for Bled, and draft Isaac at the #4 and Monk at #7, we will be in great shape going forward.


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[Saberestar]

unathletic saber? Really?

You buy into the biometric stats too much. BBIQ and shooting are equal to length/span and vertical .

Yeah, I think that both are gonna struggle in the NBA defending faster and more athletic players.

They are OK, but they are slow to react to actions, it is normal because they are so big that they need a little more of time.

Len was considered an athletic two-way C too, just saying.

Markkanen is a great shooter, but he can not dribble the ball or attack closeouts good enough to be considered more than a stretch PF. His basketball IQ is not really high, he is OK, but he is not a great passer like Love (for example).
And defensively and rebounding the ball he is just bellow average. And that is key for a frontcourt player IMO.

Zach Collins is a good prospect, but he is average at everything. I would consider him at #10, but with our #4 pick we can add a big impact player IMO. He is not BPA, he is just a good fit...but we need pure talent, talent always wins in this league.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

unathletic saber? Really?

You buy into the biometric stats too much. BBIQ and shooting are equal to length/span and vertical .

Yeah, I think that both are gonna struggle in the NBA defending faster and more athletic players.

They are OK, but they react slow to actions, it is normal because they are so big that they need a little more of time to act.

Markkanen is a great shooter, but he can not dribble the ball or attack closeouts good enough to be considered more than a stretch PF. His basketball IQ is not really high, he is OK, but he is not a great passer like Love (for example).
And defensively and rebounding the ball he is just bellow average. And that is key for a frontcourt player IMO.

Zach Collins is a good prospect, but he is average at everything. I would consider him at #10, but with our #4 pick we can add a big impact player IMO. He is not BPA, he is just a good fit...but we need pure talent, talent always wins in this league.

[WeekapaugGroove]

I like Collins and wouldn't mind if they got back into the late lotto to grab him but there's a lot of projecting with him since there's almost no sample size of him playing against NBA length and athleticism. He's a riskier pick than think some make him out to be.

[Zelaznyrules]

unathletic saber? Really?

You buy into the biometric stats too much. BBIQ and shooting are equal to length/span and vertical .

Yeah, I think that both are gonna struggle in the NBA defending faster and more athletic players.

They are OK, but they are slow to react to actions, it is normal because they are so big that they need a little more of time.

Len was considered an athletic two-way C too, just saying.

Markkanen is a great shooter, but he can not dribble the ball or attack closeouts good enough to be considered more than a stretch PF. His basketball IQ is not really high, he is OK, but he is not a great passer like Love (for example).
And defensively and rebounding the ball he is just bellow average. And that is key for a frontcourt player IMO.

Zach Collins is a good prospect, but he is average at everything. I would consider him at #10, but with our #4 pick we can add a big impact player IMO. He is not BPA, he is just a good fit...but we need pure talent, talent always wins in this league.

He can't? I saw him do it many times. He's not Kobe Bryant out there but he takes advantage of a hard closeout much better than someone like PJ Tucker does and for a 7 footer, that's exceptional IMO. I see nothing wrong with his foot speed as far as offense goes nor his ball handling ability. He does react a little slow defensively and he gets lost occasionally on screens and he will never be a shot-blocking threat but all in all I have few concerns at that end of the court either that experience and physical maturity won't take care of.

I watched every game he played and here's how I see Markkanen. If we get the player we saw the last 6 weeks of the season, we'll have a slightly improved version of Channing Frye. If we get the Markkanen that played the first 2 months of the season, we'll have drafted a player that could very well enter the conversation for best ever international NBA star. I don't know which one is the real Markkanen but unless one of the lottery picks just wows us over in the workouts, I won't be surprised to see us take the safe pick, either through a trade down or simply taking him at 4.

[Zelaznyrules]

I like Collins and wouldn't mind if they got back into the late lotto to grab him but there's a lot of projecting with him since there's almost no sample size of him playing against NBA length and athleticism. He's a riskier pick than think some make him out to be.

Yeah. I was very interested in Collins 5 months ago when I thought we might be able to grab him in the second round but as a lottery pick? That's just scary IMO. There's too many questions to draft him that high based solely on his college performance. He really finished the season soft but I guess everyone watched his game against South Carolina and decided that was the true Zach? But he was held to single digits in 9 of his last 14 games and his propensity to rack up fouls will only be magnified at the next level. I see possibilities with him but there's a fair chance he's nothing more than a poor man's Alex Len.

[WeekapaugGroove]

I like Collins and wouldn't mind if they got back into the late lotto to grab him but there's a lot of projecting with him since there's almost no sample size of him playing against NBA length and athleticism. He's a riskier pick than think some make him out to be.

Yeah. I was very interested in Collins 5 months ago when I thought we might be able to grab him in the second round but as a lottery pick? That's just scary IMO. There's too many questions to draft him that high based solely on his college performance. He really finished the season soft but I guess everyone watched his game against South Carolina and decided that was the true Zach? But he was held to single digits in 9 of his last 14 games and his propensity to rack up fouls will only be magnified at the next level. I see possibilities with him but there's a fair chance he's nothing more than a poor man's Alex Len.

Yeah the fouling issue was real with him. You can look at that two ways. If you're an optimist you say most young bigs have issues with fouls and that's something that is easy to improve on with experience. If you're a pessimist you say when he plays guys even bigger and quicker that problem could actually get worse. As far as the Len comparison I do think he has a better feel for the game than Alex and that's a big deal since if Len was a little more instinctual he would be a much better player. But Len has collins beat in size and probably athleticism.

[WeekapaugGroove]

http://www.scout.com/nba/mavericks/story/1784016-breakfast-club-mavs-in-italy-with-ntilikina

It seems that Ntilikina at #9 for Dallas is a real possibility.

Unless the scouting reports have missed some significant hole in Ntilikina's game... why is Fox ahead of him, exactly? Fox has had his D called into question by advanced stats and some scouts, his J is questionable at best and no one claims that he is an elite floor general. Is speed so much more valuable than everything Ntilikina is supposed to bring to the table?

Not that this should matter and maybe with NBA front offices it doesn't but I have to wonder if Exum's struggles early in his career have hurt Ntilikina's stock a little.

[wordsenuff]

Funny how we don't hear much about how Tatum or Isaac's workouts went but monk's we hype up and gush about his shooting. Hopefully it's a smokescreen so philly gets interest.

[bwgood77]

The ideas I'm entertaining in terms of draft day trades are:
- Swap picks with Orlando and exchange:
Knight for Fournier/
Knight and Tyson for Fournier and Vucevic/
Knight, Tyson, Bled for Fournier, Vucevic, Augustin/
Knight, Tyson, Bled, TJ for Fournier, Vucevic, Augustin, Gordon
- Trade Bled and TJ (and perhaps Tyson for filler) for #7 and Rubio (perhaps move Rubio to third team, like DET for #12, perhaps with #12 returned to MIN)
- LA sends #2 and Mozgov to SAC for #5; SAC sends Mozgov to us in a deal that nets us the #10 (permutations here get complicated)
- CHA sends #11 to us along with Nic Batum and Miles Plumlee for TJ, Knight and Chandler
- DET sends #12 in various scenarios; perhaps they give us actual value for Knight in exchange for moving Drummond (to LA? For Mozgov as part of a deal to swap #2 for #4 or #5? Permutations get complicated!
- If Collins is somehow still around at #13, Bled for #13, future pick and filler (hopefully valuable filler that can be sent to a third team)

Why are you overvaluing our players so much and undervaluing others? Those are so extremely lopsided I don't know where to begin. That Charlotte one we get the two best assets and they get two terrible contracts.

I can't understand how you think Knight has positive value. And Tyson for filler to Minnesota makes no sense because we are already sending out more salary than we are getting back. Plus they are looking for defense so I don't think they'd want to send out a good defensive player and take back worse ones.

[bwgood77]

We already got Bender who I'm hoping will fit into the new modern center. I like him a lot more than Mark and Collins. Swing for the fences, if we strike out we are still 4 runs down. If we go for a single we may inch closer, but the opposing team may swing for the fences and will be up more.

i wish we'd just hang up the 'Bender at Center' rebuttals. Play to the kid's strengths, don't square peg round hole him.

We could also slide Chriss to the 5 spot. Really though, I feel like the traditional center position is obsolete. The Warriors have Zaza as center, and he only plays 18 minutes a game. McGee also only plays about 10 minutes a game. For almost half the game the Warriors either have Draymond or Durant play center. It's not a stretch to feel Chriss and Bender could play the 5 spot in certain situations or half the game and possibly have Chandler/Williams play the other half.

Yes, Bender/Chriss can be our frontcourt for at least half the game in the future, if not more.

[bwgood77]

We already got Bender who I'm hoping will fit into the new modern center. I like him a lot more than Mark and Collins. Swing for the fences, if we strike out we are still 4 runs down. If we go for a single we may inch closer, but the opposing team may swing for the fences and will be up more.

i wish we'd just hang up the 'Bender at Center' rebuttals. Play to the kid's strengths, don't square peg round hole him.

Why wouldn't Bender be able to play at center? it's all about who he can guard and actually his strength's are not so off for a center. It's more important to use him correctly on Offense which, I don't think Watson has any clue on how to do that. If he's guarding opposing centers on D, it doesn't mean he has to be a post bruiser on O. He's not a full time wing either, so him and Chriss are gonna have to co-exist playing pf/c. it's all about match ups.

Yeah, most seemed to think playing him at 3 is more of trying to put a round peg into a square hole. He is probably best as a 4 right now who can switch and guard perimeter players fairly well, but you don't want him guarding all starting wings in the league all the time.

With time and putting bulk on he should be able to guard most centers as well.

[bwgood77]

i wish we'd just hang up the 'Bender at Center' rebuttals. Play to the kid's strengths, don't square peg round hole him.

Why wouldn't Bender be able to play at center? it's all about who he can guard and actually his strength's are not so off for a center. It's more important to use him correctly on Offense which, I don't think Watson has any clue on how to do that. If he's guarding opposing centers on D, it doesn't mean he has to be a post bruiser on O. He's not a full time wing either, so him and Chriss are gonna have to co-exist playing pf/c. it's all about match ups.

He's not a strong side shot blocker (read: not a rim protector). He doesn't have a lot of lower body weight. Not great at keeping true bigs off the glass. In addition, it really minimizes his defensive strengths, which is making reads, playing team defense. The only reason people talk about him as a center is because of his height; the only reason people don't talk about him as a small forward is because of his height. The way he plays and his strengths are clearly more the latter than the former.

That's mostly due to being one of the youngest players in the league who's body hasn't filled out yet.

[Qwigglez]

The ideas I'm entertaining in terms of draft day trades are:
- Swap picks with Orlando and exchange:
Knight for Fournier/
Knight and Tyson for Fournier and Vucevic/
Knight, Tyson, Bled for Fournier, Vucevic, Augustin/
Knight, Tyson, Bled, TJ for Fournier, Vucevic, Augustin, Gordon
- Trade Bled and TJ (and perhaps Tyson for filler) for #7 and Rubio (perhaps move Rubio to third team, like DET for #12, perhaps with #12 returned to MIN)
- LA sends #2 and Mozgov to SAC for #5; SAC sends Mozgov to us in a deal that nets us the #10 (permutations here get complicated)
- CHA sends #11 to us along with Nic Batum and Miles Plumlee for TJ, Knight and Chandler
- DET sends #12 in various scenarios; perhaps they give us actual value for Knight in exchange for moving Drummond (to LA? For Mozgov as part of a deal to swap #2 for #4 or #5? Permutations get complicated!
- If Collins is somehow still around at #13, Bled for #13, future pick and filler (hopefully valuable filler that can be sent to a third team)

Why are you overvaluing our players so much and undervaluing others? Those are so extremely lopsided I don't know where to begin. That Charlotte one we get the two best assets and they get two terrible contracts.

I can't understand how you think Knight has positive value. And Tyson for filler to Minnesota makes no sense because we are already sending out more salary than we are getting back. Plus they are looking for defense so I don't think they'd want to send out a good defensive player and take back worse ones.

I thought I was going to see a just kidding from you in the end. I am on the complete opposite end of the spectrum. All those trades make me want to throw up. I hate em all. The Charlotte trade what assets are we getting? Batum and Plumlee both have bad contracts.
I prefer we keep Knight. I'm not trading an asset to get rid of him.

[Mulhollanddrive]

We've done smokescreens with Kaminsky & Sabonis (imo as they were hyped for us despite not being the McDonough type).

We basically can't select Monk due to roster so seems like he's this years.

Did Bogdanovic do a workout for us in 2013? Ntilikina isn't.

[bwgood77]

The ideas I'm entertaining in terms of draft day trades are:
- Swap picks with Orlando and exchange:
Knight for Fournier/
Knight and Tyson for Fournier and Vucevic/
Knight, Tyson, Bled for Fournier, Vucevic, Augustin/
Knight, Tyson, Bled, TJ for Fournier, Vucevic, Augustin, Gordon
- Trade Bled and TJ (and perhaps Tyson for filler) for #7 and Rubio (perhaps move Rubio to third team, like DET for #12, perhaps with #12 returned to MIN)
- LA sends #2 and Mozgov to SAC for #5; SAC sends Mozgov to us in a deal that nets us the #10 (permutations here get complicated)
- CHA sends #11 to us along with Nic Batum and Miles Plumlee for TJ, Knight and Chandler
- DET sends #12 in various scenarios; perhaps they give us actual value for Knight in exchange for moving Drummond (to LA? For Mozgov as part of a deal to swap #2 for #4 or #5? Permutations get complicated!
- If Collins is somehow still around at #13, Bled for #13, future pick and filler (hopefully valuable filler that can be sent to a third team)

Why are you overvaluing our players so much and undervaluing others? Those are so extremely lopsided I don't know where to begin. That Charlotte one we get the two best assets and they get two terrible contracts.

I can't understand how you think Knight has positive value. And Tyson for filler to Minnesota makes no sense because we are already sending out more salary than we are getting back. Plus they are looking for defense so I don't think they'd want to send out a good defensive player and take back worse ones.

I thought I was going to see a just kidding from you in the end. I am on the complete opposite end of the spectrum. All those trades make me want to throw up. I hate em all. The Charlotte trade what assets are we getting? Batum and Plumlee both have bad contracts.
I prefer we keep Knight. I'm not trading an asset to get rid of him.

I wouldn't do some of them either. I don't think we need a guy like Batum either due to his contract and age. But they want to compete and he is a big part of their team...one of their best players. TJ is a downgrade and the other players certainly don't help them AND they give up the 11th ALSO?

Most of them don't make sense for either team though, except the ones where we dump Knight or Knight and Chandler for better players (though I don't like Vucevic much either).

I definitely don't want to keep Knight. I can say what they will or won't do. I don't think they want to play him. I don't think they likely want him around in that scenario, so I think they will probably try and dump him.

If we trade those guys, I would wouldn't want to take bad contracts back though...at least not long term ones that lasted more than a year. But it's hard to do unless someone will just absorb the contract, in which sense they'd likely want an asset since they are allowing a not very useful player take up their cap space.

With Tyson, it's more likely a competitive team would want him, but not many of them have cap space so they'd have to send salary back. So then it's tough to make it worth it.

[blee732]

Speaking of smokescreens, looks like the Lakers are using one to ensure BOS doesn't take Ball and nobody trades up for him.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2715201-lakers-rumors-some-observers-of-lonzo-balls-workout-felt-he-was-out-of-shape

[Waylay13]

I watched every game he played and here's how I see Markkanen. If we get the player we saw the last 6 weeks of the season, we'll have a slightly improved version of Channing Frye. If we get the Markkanen that played the first 2 months of the season, we'll have drafted a player that could very well enter the conversation for best ever international NBA star. I don't know which one is the real Markkanen but unless one of the lottery picks just wows us over in the workouts, I won't be surprised to see us take the safe pick, either through a trade down or simply taking him at 4.

Do you really think that Markkanen will come close to Dirk? Heck Tim Duncan is from the Virgin Island making him an international player and you think that he might be in the range of these guys? I am sorry I think that if he were to develop into a Channing Frye that would be about the best that could be hoped from him. To top this off at this point he does have the strength to guard NBA centers so he would have to play behind both Chriss and Bender at Power Forward which he doesnt have the skill to beat them out with.