2017 NBA DRAFT Part 3

[M-C-G]

Do people not like Allen just because he has an almost identical physical profile to John Henson? I see more of Larry Sanders minus the crazy.

It is this kind of stuff that worries me about him;

MINUSES

Intangibles are concerning. He’s not physical, avoids contact inside. Classic big who wants to be a guard.
Lacks fundamentals defending the perimeter. Slides slowly laterally, doesn’t always get a good contest on jumpers.
Instincts are lacking. Makes sloppy decisions as a passer, has slow reads on defense, commits careless fouls, is an inconsistent rebounder.
Poor shooter at this stage. Shoots a medicine ball at the rim from outside. He has solid form, though, so might be an unsolvable, natural issue.

Allen is not a big time athlete and he kind of lumbers up and down the court. He doesn't get great lift and is just an adequate above the rim player. He's got an old school game and doesn't stretch the floor like many modern Bigs.

There is a lot of Henson laying in the weeds on the cons.

[M-C-G]

Larry sanders was way more explosive than Allen

That was one thing I think people under estimated Sanders. His dunking was strange in that he would fully extend his arms and just jump enough to dunk it, which made him maybe appear less athletic than he was.

Not many centers could get up and down the court like he could. Two plays that come to mind, one when he was running the fast break dribbling the ball and was just pulling away from guys, can't recall who it was against. The other was a chase down block of maybe Harden, very few bigs had that kind of speed, even if he didn't use it all the time.

[Ron Swanson]

Larry Sanders posted a pretty disappointing 28" max vert and a 25.5" no step vert. Allen on the other hand posted 35.5" and 31.5" respectively, so I don't see anything to suggest that Larry was a vastly more explosive athlete. What Larry did was he got stronger and more agile when he got access to NBA trainers.

[crkone]

Vertical is overrated for big men.

[Ron Swanson]

Vertical is overrated for big men.

That's not the point. The point is that we're comparing 24-year old Larry Sanders' athleticism vs. a 19-year old Jarrett Allen. Jarrett Allen is a better athlete at 19 than Larry was. Players tend to get stronger and more explosive once they start conditioning their bodies to NBA standards. 21-year old Larry Sanders was a twig who couldn't jump high or out-muscle anyone.

[emunney]

Vertical is overrated for big men.

That's not the point. The point is that we're comparing 24-year old Larry Sanders' athleticism vs. a 19-year old Jarrett Allen. Jarrett Allen is a better athlete at 19 than Larry was. Players tend to get stronger and more explosive once they start conditioning their bodies to NBA standards. 21-year old Larry Sanders was a twig who couldn't jump high or out-muscle anyone.

Yet as a freshman he averaged 3 blocks in under 20 minutes/game. In his career at all levels, Larry has never averaged less than 2.7 blocks/40 pace adjusted. Allen this year at Texas: 2.0. The measurements are what they are, but the idea that Sanders at VCU couldn't jump high or outmuscle *anyone* is totally wrong. He was ferocious in the paint in college. Some particularly strong guys did give him problems.

Sometimes I feel like it'd be like it'd be a more useful measurement to time a guy from standing up straight to touching 11'. Getting to/above the rim quickly is more important for defense than having a huge max reach (although that is also good). Having a high standing reach definitely helps with that.

[NMB2420]

Nope that's basically all there is to him. 3 and D guy that struggled to shoot this season and is considered to have inconsistent shooting mechanics.

The gist I've gotten from reading about him is that he's extremely streaky as a shooter and very athletic, but not really skilled enough to attack the rim much right now.

a 3 & D guy with no 3 is just a D guy

pass

I agree with your thoughts on Ferguson, What do you guys think about Justin Jackson from UNC?

Sent from my AS985 using RealGM mobile app

[machu46]

Nope that's basically all there is to him. 3 and D guy that struggled to shoot this season and is considered to have inconsistent shooting mechanics.

The gist I've gotten from reading about him is that he's extremely streaky as a shooter and very athletic, but not really skilled enough to attack the rim much right now.

a 3 & D guy with no 3 is just a D guy

pass

I agree with your thoughts on Ferguson, What do you guys think about Justin Jackson from UNC?

Sent from my AS985 using RealGM mobile app

I like him. Probably a relatively low ceiling guy, but I think he'd be a nice fit in that Tony Snell sort of role.

[crkone]

Vertical is overrated for big men.

That's not the point. The point is that we're comparing 24-year old Larry Sanders' athleticism vs. a 19-year old Jarrett Allen. Jarrett Allen is a better athlete at 19 than Larry was. Players tend to get stronger and more explosive once they start conditioning their bodies to NBA standards. 21-year old Larry Sanders was a twig who couldn't jump high or out-muscle anyone.

Yet as a freshman he averaged 3 blocks in under 20 minutes/game. In his career at all levels, Larry has never averaged less than 2.7 blocks/40 pace adjusted. Allen this year at Texas: 2.0. The measurements are what they are, but the idea that Sanders at VCU couldn't jump high or outmuscle *anyone* is totally wrong. He was ferocious in the paint in college. Some particularly strong guys did give him problems.

Sometimes I feel like it'd be like it'd be a more useful measurement to time a guy from standing up straight to touching 11'. Getting to/above the rim quickly is more important for defense than having a huge max reach (although that is also good). Having a high standing reach definitely helps with that.

Yeah I'd say standing reach/wingspan and timing of when an opponent leaves their feet to when the defender jumps or reacts to the shot.

[Fotis St]

Read on Twitter

My God ..... No No No

One Henson is enough !!!

[Nowak008]

I know it's irrelevant to us... but it is more fun to talk about the top guys in the draft.

Everyone seems to think that Fultz is the no doubt #1 pick.... but man there are a lot of red flags on him.

- 64% free throw shooter
- terrible defender
- Not elite athlete ie John Wall, Westbrook
- his team was God awful - makes is gaudy stats look pretty meaninless
- Passing ability is ok?
- he is 6'4, which in my opinion, is not great. Too tall for a point guard, too short for a shooting guard

[machu46]

I know it's irrelevant to us... but it is more fun to talk about the top guys in the draft.

Everyone seems to think that Fultz is the no doubt #1 pick.... but man there are a lot of red flags on him.

- 64% free throw shooter
- terrible defender
- Not elite athlete ie John Wall, Westbrook
- his team was God awful - makes is gaudy stats look pretty meaninless
- Passing ability is ok?
- he is 6'4, which in my opinion, is not great. Too tall for a point guard, too short for a shooting guard

Of these weaknesses:
He isn't a TERRIBLE defender. He was lazy at Washington, but also very disruptive. Over a block per game as a PG is absurd. Defense is a concern, but saying he's terrible is a stretch IMO.

"Not a John Wall/Westbrook-level athlete" - This could be said about 99.9% of draft prospects. He's still very athletic.

His team was god awful with hilariously poor spacing, and he was still able to produce at a very efficient rate.

His passing ability is good.

Being tall isn't a weakness, and he isn't even small relative to SGs anymore. His standing reach is like an inch shorter than Harden/Klay Thompson and an inch or two longer than Bradley Beal. His size is perfectly fine for a SG and is good for a PG.

He does have some concerns, but nothing that should stop him from being a great PG in the NBA.

[freewhitemoon]

Larry sanders was absolutely more athletic at age ~20. We've seen time and time again how useless vertical measurements can be. It's way more important how quickly you get off the floor than how high, especially for bigs. Some basic vertical measurement where they give you as long as you want to load up obviously dosent measure that. Kevin Love and Blake griffin recorded the same max vert for christ's sake.

And improving dramatically in athleticism isn't the norm. Just because it occasionally happens with raw athletes like Giannis (who probably didnt have great nutrition given his poor upbringing) dosent mean you should have that expectation for every young draft pick.

[freewhitemoon]

Fultz was definitely a terrible defender btw. Yeah he gets a nice block occasionally but he dosen't seem to be a great athlete laterally and obviously his effort was pretty **** too

[Badgerlander]

I know it's irrelevant to us... but it is more fun to talk about the top guys in the draft.

Everyone seems to think that Fultz is the no doubt #1 pick.... but man there are a lot of red flags on him.

- 64% free throw shooter
- terrible defender
- Not elite athlete ie John Wall, Westbrook
- his team was God awful - makes is gaudy stats look pretty meaninless
- Passing ability is ok?
- he is 6'4, which in my opinion, is not great. Too tall for a point guard, too short for a shooting guard

Idk but I do think Ball would be fantastic with Stevens

[Gam]

Read on Twitter

My God ..... No No No

One Henson is enough !!!

On the bright side if we draft Allen that means Henson is 110% going to be moved.

[Nowak008]

His team was god awful with hilariously poor spacing, and he was still able to produce at a very efficient rate.

He just screams to me good stats bad team guy. I mean last year people were freaking out that Ben Simmons didn't make the tournament...but his team was 19-14 and finished 3rd in the SEC... Fultz went 9-22... and 2-16 in conference play...in a pretty weak conference...I mean God damn that is terrible. How can the #1 pick be on a team that bad?

Being tall isn't a weakness, and he isn't even small relative to SGs anymore. His standing reach is like an inch shorter than Harden/Klay Thompson and an inch or two longer than Bradley Beal. His size is perfectly fine for a SG and is good for a PG.

Quick name all the all stars in the league who are 6'4 - .... there just isn't any. The only guys that come to mind at 6'4 are Eric Gordon, Marcus Smart, Dion Waiters, Brandon Knight...those guys are all flawed in a lot of ways in part because they aren't quick enough or tall enough. Maybe it's just an aberration... but I think it's relevant to think about

[Nowak008]

Fultz was definitely a terrible defender btw. Yeah he gets a nice block occasionally but he dosen't seem to be a great athlete laterally and obviously his effort was pretty **** too

Yea the effort thing scares me big time. First time I watched him play - Jeremy Lamb popped into my brain.

[M-C-G]

Read on Twitter

My God ..... No No No

One Henson is enough !!!

On the bright side if we draft Allen that means Henson is 110% going to be moved.

Having a new GM really opens up the possibility to many things. Shipping out some dead weight, reshaping the roster, possibly acquiring picks, identifying some international talent hiding under rocks. I know not all these things will happen, but the possibilities are pretty exciting. There isn't much we can do in FA, so for a GM to put his stamp on this team, it is reshaping with what we have and draft.

[Prez]

I really think Josh Jackson is going to be the best player out of this draft. Or DSJ, but I get a PG Cousins vibe from him where his talent level is through the roof but it all depends on the situation he goes to.