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Draft Discussion Part 3

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Who would you rather have, Jackson or Tatum?

Jackson
44
80%
Tatum
11
20%
 
Total votes: 55

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Re: 2017 Draft Discussion Part 3 [New Poll] 

Post#921 » by RaisingArizona » Wed Jun 14, 2017 6:06 am

4. Phoenix Suns - Jonathan Isaac, F, Florida State
The truth is that players No. 4 through No. 10 in this mock can be rearranged however you want. I’m giving Isaac the edge because a) he’s the biggest, and b) he has the highest defensive potential.
I see Isaac as a full-time four who can play spot minutes at the five rather than a three. At small forward, his handle and shot would be more of a question mark. In the front court, he can focus on becoming a monster defensively who can switch every screen, while also serving as a spot-up shooter on offense who primarily takes open looks when the defense collapses on someone else. Some will criticize Isaac for a lack of assertiveness after only averaging eight shots per game at Florida State, but I want a player who plays well with others rather than someone looking to get his. He should fit in well within a team dynamic in the NBA from day one as his skill set continues to develop.

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2017/6/12/15775870/nba-mock-draft-2017-boston-celtics-markelle-fultz-lonzo-ball-lakers-ucla
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Re: 2017 Draft Discussion Part 3 [New Poll] 

Post#922 » by Saberestar » Wed Jun 14, 2017 6:08 am

Though not asked specifically about the Suns’ recent weekend trip to L.A. to watch Tatum workout, Connelly was asked what he liked about the Duke freshman, who averaged 16.8 points, 7.3 rebounds, 1.1 blocks and 1.3 steals in 29 games.

“He’s really skilled. He’s a really good shooter,” Connelly said. “As he came back from his injury at Duke, he showed that he was one of the better players in the nation down the stretch. Throughout the whole season he played really well, but really kind of found his feet later in the season. Good size; can do a bunch of different things.”

— Twice the Suns have visited with Isaac, once in Las Vegas and then again in Phoenix on Monday.

At 6-foot-11, Isaac offers a lot of potential. In his one season at Florida State, he averaged 12 points, 7.8 rebounds, 1.5 blocks and 1.2 steals.

“He’s long, he’s skilled, he’s multi-dimensional. He’s a really good kid. Obviously, the Florida State guys did a good job with him,” Connelly said. “I think another guy that can kind of really mix it up and doesn’t have really one specific skill that you can kind of say he relies on that. He can do a whole lot of things really well.”

https://arizonasports.com/story/1147637/following-recent-visits-with-tatum-and-isaac-suns-work-out-zach-collins/
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Re: 2017 Draft Discussion Part 3 [New Poll] 

Post#923 » by Blonde » Wed Jun 14, 2017 6:33 am

That Connelly quote is pretty interesting. He said Tatum came on strong at the end of the year, and McD has said in the past that one of the reasons they liked Chriss so much last year was that they saw him get better as the college season went on. I think they'll weigh that pretty heavily when making their decision.

I would be more than happy to get Tatum at 4. As much as I like TJ, Tatum projects to be a better shooter, passer, and probably defender. I don't think that drafting Tatum means we are giving up on TJ though, I think they can coexist pretty well.
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Re: 2017 Draft Discussion Part 3 [New Poll] 

Post#924 » by Saberestar » Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:30 am

“The point guards in this draft are really, really, really good and are special,” Jackson said. “I don’t think you can look past anybody in this draft, point guard or forward. It doesn’t matter. This is a really good draft class and probably one of the best I’ve seen in the last couple of years.”

Yet, a player such as Jackson could have an advantage with his position-less versatility. He also downplayed any possible complications that could come from playing with Lakers small forward Brandon Ingram. He brought up the recent NBA Finals matchup between Golden State and Cleveland to explain why.

“When it’s winning time, there is no five-man (center) on the court,” Jackson said. “There is no four-man (power forward) on the court. There is pretty much forwards and guards all playing at the same time. I don’t really think me and Brandon playing in the same position would cause any problems. I think it would be really special.”

The Lakers generally liked Jackson’s energy and shooting in his first workout, while cautioning themselves about the difficulty of evaluating any player in an individual workout. Yet, Jackson conceded he “was a little more in shape” for his second workout.

“I was kind of in my comfort zone back then,” Jackson said. “Today I got out of my comfort zone a little bit and working out with their training staff. I think both went pretty well.”

After Jackson worked through familiar routines with his personal trainer last week in Sacramento, he spent part of Tuesday’s workout learning the offensive sets and terminology the Lakers run.

http://www.ocregister.com/2017/06/13/nba-draft-kansas-josh-jackson-gets-out-of-his-comfort-zone-in-2nd-lakers-workout/amp/
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Re: 2017 Draft Discussion Part 3 [New Poll] 

Post#925 » by lilfishi22 » Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:35 am

I'm still not on board with Issac. Usually these versatile players grow on me as we get closer to the draft but it hasn't happened with him. I don't like that his most valuable skill (defense) is still in the potential category. Tatum's most valuable skill is actually a skill right now which makes me lean heavily towards his corner.
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Re: 2017 Draft Discussion Part 3 [New Poll] 

Post#926 » by Saberestar » Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:44 am

Fox is gonna workout for the Sixers.

It is really strange, but Monk is the only other high prospect that they have seen.

No Fultz, No Ball, No Jackson, No Tatum, No Isaac.
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Re: 2017 Draft Discussion Part 3 [New Poll] 

Post#927 » by Damkac » Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:52 am

LukasBMW wrote:I want Tatum. Final Choice.

Same. Jackson or Isaac has more potential on defense but they also has some red flags. Tatum is probably the safest choice along with Fultz.
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Re: 2017 Draft Discussion Part 3 [New Poll] 

Post#928 » by Zelaznyrules » Wed Jun 14, 2017 8:00 am

lilfishi22 wrote:I'm still not on board with Issac. Usually these versatile players grow on me as we get closer to the draft but it hasn't happened with him. I don't like that his most valuable skill (defense) is still in the potential category. Tatum's most valuable skill is actually a skill right now which makes me lean heavily towards his corner.


I don't know that his defense is really any more in the potential category than it is for the other guys?

I have some doubts too but I have them about every player talked about here. I love the fact that his college coach raves about his willingness to fill whatever role was needed and I love the fact that he apparently wins games because of his BBIQ. Just like I love the fact that Jackson is driven to excel and has a reputation for competing hard from start to finish. Those are the kind of facts I take to heart far more than some of the tangibles that get tossed around. If someone can shine at the college level and if he has the kind of personality traits that these two apparently possess, I like their chances for success at the next level.
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Re: 2017 Draft Discussion Part 3 [New Poll] 

Post#929 » by JoRain » Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:31 am

Zelaznyrules wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:I'm still not on board with Issac. Usually these versatile players grow on me as we get closer to the draft but it hasn't happened with him. I don't like that his most valuable skill (defense) is still in the potential category. Tatum's most valuable skill is actually a skill right now which makes me lean heavily towards his corner.


I don't know that his defense is really any more in the potential category than it is for the other guys?

I have some doubts too but I have them about every player talked about here. I love the fact that his college coach raves about his willingness to fill whatever role was needed and I love the fact that he apparently wins games because of his BBIQ. Just like I love the fact that Jackson is driven to excel and has a reputation for competing hard from start to finish. Those are the kind of facts I take to heart far more than some of the tangibles that get tossed around. If someone can shine at the college level and if he has the kind of personality traits that these two apparently possess, I like their chances for success at the next level.


the problem is not that his D is more or less in potential category in comparison to other guys - the problem is, that contrary to many/most other guys, his other skills are also in potential category, he doesn't have any NBA ready skill. On top, for me there are reasons to question on whether he'll ever be able to be anything more than a project.
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Re: 2017 Draft Discussion Part 3 [New Poll] 

Post#930 » by Zelaznyrules » Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:47 am

JoRain wrote:
Zelaznyrules wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:I'm still not on board with Issac. Usually these versatile players grow on me as we get closer to the draft but it hasn't happened with him. I don't like that his most valuable skill (defense) is still in the potential category. Tatum's most valuable skill is actually a skill right now which makes me lean heavily towards his corner.


I don't know that his defense is really any more in the potential category than it is for the other guys?

I have some doubts too but I have them about every player talked about here. I love the fact that his college coach raves about his willingness to fill whatever role was needed and I love the fact that he apparently wins games because of his BBIQ. Just like I love the fact that Jackson is driven to excel and has a reputation for competing hard from start to finish. Those are the kind of facts I take to heart far more than some of the tangibles that get tossed around. If someone can shine at the college level and if he has the kind of personality traits that these two apparently possess, I like their chances for success at the next level.


the problem is not that his D is more or less in potential category in comparison to other guys - the problem is, that contrary to many/most other guys, his other skills are also in potential category, he doesn't have any NBA ready skill. On top, for me there are reasons to question on whether he'll ever be able to be anything more than a project.


I haven't watched enough of Isaac's games to say anything about him with confidence but I will say this - I've never heard a coach talk about a player like Hamilton just did who was nothing more than a project.
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Re: 2017 Draft Discussion Part 3 [New Poll] 

Post#931 » by Qwigglez » Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:55 am

The Kings owner really loves shooters (trading for Bogdon, trading for Hield, picking Nik Staukas/Ben McLemore). We need to do a good job of convincing him that Brandon Knight is an amazing shooting. I actually think Knight is a good shooter, sometimes lights out. He would work better with the Kings environment. Trade Knight, 2018 Miami 1st for their #10 pick.
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Re: 2017 Draft Discussion Part 3 [New Poll] 

Post#932 » by Saberestar » Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:10 am

Qwigglez wrote:The Kings owner really loves shooters (trading for Bogdon, trading for Hield, picking Nik Staukas/Ben McLemore). We need to do a good job of convincing him that Brandon Knight is an amazing shooting. I actually think Knight is a good shooter, sometimes lights out. He would work better with the Kings environment. Trade Knight, 2018 Miami 1st for their #10 pick.

That would be an amazing trade for us. Too good to be true.
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Re: 2017 Draft Discussion Part 3 [New Poll] 

Post#933 » by Waylay13 » Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:55 am

ginobiliflops wrote:4. Phoenix Suns - Jonathan Isaac, F, Florida State
The truth is that players No. 4 through No. 10 in this mock can be rearranged however you want. I’m giving Isaac the edge because a) he’s the biggest, and b) he has the highest defensive potential.
I see Isaac as a full-time four who can play spot minutes at the five rather than a three. At small forward, his handle and shot would be more of a question mark. In the front court, he can focus on becoming a monster defensively who can switch every screen, while also serving as a spot-up shooter on offense who primarily takes open looks when the defense collapses on someone else. Some will criticize Isaac for a lack of assertiveness after only averaging eight shots per game at Florida State, but I want a player who plays well with others rather than someone looking to get his. He should fit in well within a team dynamic in the NBA from day one as his skill set continues to develop.

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2017/6/12/15775870/nba-mock-draft-2017-boston-celtics-markelle-fultz-lonzo-ball-lakers-ucla


To watching him play I see a lot of the same skills that we already have in Chriss and if his handle and shot are not up to being a small forward I dont want him.
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Re: 2017 Draft Discussion Part 3 [New Poll] 

Post#934 » by JMac1 » Wed Jun 14, 2017 1:02 pm

Waylay13 wrote:
ginobiliflops wrote:4. Phoenix Suns - Jonathan Isaac, F, Florida State
The truth is that players No. 4 through No. 10 in this mock can be rearranged however you want. I’m giving Isaac the edge because a) he’s the biggest, and b) he has the highest defensive potential.
I see Isaac as a full-time four who can play spot minutes at the five rather than a three. At small forward, his handle and shot would be more of a question mark. In the front court, he can focus on becoming a monster defensively who can switch every screen, while also serving as a spot-up shooter on offense who primarily takes open looks when the defense collapses on someone else. Some will criticize Isaac for a lack of assertiveness after only averaging eight shots per game at Florida State, but I want a player who plays well with others rather than someone looking to get his. He should fit in well within a team dynamic in the NBA from day one as his skill set continues to develop.

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2017/6/12/15775870/nba-mock-draft-2017-boston-celtics-markelle-fultz-lonzo-ball-lakers-ucla


To watching him play I see a lot of the same skills that we already have in Chriss and if his handle and shot are not up to being a small forward I dont want him.


Yea, if he isn't a three....please
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Re: 2017 Draft Discussion Part 3 [New Poll] 

Post#935 » by WeekapaugGroove » Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:03 pm

lilfishi22 wrote:I'm still not on board with Issac. Usually these versatile players grow on me as we get closer to the draft but it hasn't happened with him. I don't like that his most valuable skill (defense) is still in the potential category. Tatum's most valuable skill is actually a skill right now which makes me lean heavily towards his corner.


I'm a little confused by this take. I don't know how Isaac's D can be called "potential" when he put up one of the best combinations of defensive rebounding, steal %, and block % of any player this past decade. That's actual production.

What skill of Tatum's are you referring to? When comparing the two offensively Tatum shot a worse % from 3 and far worse % from inside the arc. Tatum took more shots and averaged about an assist more a game but it's not like either one are known for their passing.

Tatum's offensive game is far more in the potential category than Isaac's defensive game. Just because Tatum's O looks smooth I think people confuse it with actual production. Kind of like Bookers 3pt shot; it looks nice but so far it hasn't went in enough to actually make him a good 3pt shooter.

With all that said I'm starting to like Tatum more than I did a week ago. I went back and watched some more of him and I've talked myself into believing he can be at least be decent defensively and I'll take the optimistic approach that his shot will start going in more.

I still like Isaac a lot and personally would probably take him over Tatum but his hands scare me a little bit and I don't love the asthma thing.
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Re: 2017 Draft Discussion Part 3 [New Poll] 

Post#936 » by Qwigglez » Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:17 pm

So I'm thinking maybe the Lakers promised Josh Jackson they would take him, except they would take him at 3 and trade D'Lo to the Sixers.
Not sure if Philly would do it but D'Lo would play fairly well IMO with Ben Simmons.
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Re: 2017 Draft Discussion Part 3 [New Poll] 

Post#937 » by Sreister » Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:23 pm

We can go so many ways with this, it's hard for me to focus on just one prospect.

If we draft a PG then we need to blow up a bit. I don't see us taking a PG and not trading Bled. I'm all for trading Bled in the height of his value and stock, but it's scary to regress when..honestly we can't afford to. We can't keep being bad in hopes of being good soon, right? I don't see Ball as being a good play for us. I think he needs a better supporting cast since we won't get a lot of scoring from him. Sure Book would get better, but we don't have the shooting to spot up when Ball puts it on the floor to dish it out. I like the idea of playing Chriss as an Amare lite in a pick and roll/pop game, and have bender on the backside as well. I don't know, Ball is hard to gauge and makes it hard for me to want him. I'm not sold on Fox, either.

If we draft Tatum or Isaac, where do they play? Tatum at the 3, right? That seems logical to me. Warren hasn't panned out and might be that scoring punch off the bench when Ulis goes in? But Isaac? I understand the positionless aspect and I love it. Watching the finals, you saw a ton of that. Zaza was about the only true center that played. So with drafting Isaac, can he play with Warren, Bender, Chriss? Can we run Isaac, Chriss, Bender at the same time? Maybe?

All that said, I think I like Isaac the most. Defense can't be understated in that he won't bust on that. But offense is something that's way more..aloof. Good offensive players in college come into the league and can't find their way, so what do we do with a defensive specialist that we need to make into another scoring option? We need a 2nd scorer, especially if we trade Bled.

I don't know.
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Re: 2017 Draft Discussion Part 3 [New Poll] 

Post#938 » by sunsbum » Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:24 pm

WeekapaugGroove wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:I'm still not on board with Issac. Usually these versatile players grow on me as we get closer to the draft but it hasn't happened with him. I don't like that his most valuable skill (defense) is still in the potential category. Tatum's most valuable skill is actually a skill right now which makes me lean heavily towards his corner.


I'm a little confused by this take. I don't know how Isaac's D can be called "potential" when he put up one of the best combinations of defensive rebounding, steal %, and block % of any player this past decade. That's actual production.

What skill of Tatum's are you referring to? When comparing the two offensively Tatum shot a worse % from 3 and far worse % from inside the arc. Tatum took more shots and averaged about an assist more a game but it's not like either one are known for their passing.

Tatum's offensive game is far more in the potential category than Isaac's defensive game. Just because Tatum's O looks smooth I think people confuse it with actual production. Kind of like Bookers 3pt shot; it looks nice but so far it hasn't went in enough to actually make him a good 3pt shooter.

With all that said I'm starting to like Tatum more than I did a week ago. I went back and watched some more of him and I've talked myself into believing he can be at least be decent defensively and I'll take the optimistic approach that his shot will start going in more.

I still like Isaac a lot and personally would probably take him over Tatum but his hands scare me a little bit and I don't love the asthma thing.
I'd like to see numbers and where you're getting the....where is this nonsense coming from. Collins destroys this kid so hard.

Bookers shot is fine, when you go from number 1 option in HS, to 6th man in college to #1 option on the best basketball platform in the world, yes... It's going to take a year or so to settle in.


Devin is a generational talent. If you can't see that, you are bad at basketball eyes.
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Re: 2017 Draft Discussion Part 3 [New Poll] 

Post#939 » by WeekapaugGroove » Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:31 pm

sunsbum wrote:
WeekapaugGroove wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:I'm still not on board with Issac. Usually these versatile players grow on me as we get closer to the draft but it hasn't happened with him. I don't like that his most valuable skill (defense) is still in the potential category. Tatum's most valuable skill is actually a skill right now which makes me lean heavily towards his corner.


I'm a little confused by this take. I don't know how Isaac's D can be called "potential" when he put up one of the best combinations of defensive rebounding, steal %, and block % of any player this past decade. That's actual production.

What skill of Tatum's are you referring to? When comparing the two offensively Tatum shot a worse % from 3 and far worse % from inside the arc. Tatum took more shots and averaged about an assist more a game but it's not like either one are known for their passing.

Tatum's offensive game is far more in the potential category than Isaac's defensive game. Just because Tatum's O looks smooth I think people confuse it with actual production. Kind of like Bookers 3pt shot; it looks nice but so far it hasn't went in enough to actually make him a good 3pt shooter.

With all that said I'm starting to like Tatum more than I did a week ago. I went back and watched some more of him and I've talked myself into believing he can be at least be decent defensively and I'll take the optimistic approach that his shot will start going in more.

I still like Isaac a lot and personally would probably take him over Tatum but his hands scare me a little bit and I don't love the asthma thing.
I'd like to see numbers and where you're getting the....where is this nonsense coming from. Collins destroys this kid so hard.

Bookers shot is fine, when you go from number 1 option in HS, to 6th man in college to #1 option on the best basketball platform in the world, yes... It's going to take a year or so to settle in.


Devin is a generational talent. If you can't see that, you are bad at basketball eyes.


Isaac's D numbers:

https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/jonathan-isaac-is-a-safe-nba-draft-prospect-with-upside

Statistically, Isaac was a difference-maker at Florida State, and the company he kept bodes well for his future. He was one of only five high major defenders since 2009-10 to post a 25 percent defensive rebounding rate, six percent block rate, and 2.4 percent steal rate. The other four? Anthony Davis, who has twice made the NBA's All-Defensive team; Andre Roberson, who is likely to make the same squad this season; Dewayne Dedmon, who saw San Antonio's defensive rating drop from 102.7 to 97.5 when he was on the floor; and Aaric Murray, who as a college player was dismissed from two schools in a three-year period and never saw his professional career get off the ground for reasons outside of basketball.



I like Booker a lot and he has a ton of offensive skill but he's a career 35% 3pt shooter. Until he you know makes more of them you can't actually call him a good 3pt shooter.
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Re: 2017 Draft Discussion Part 3 [New Poll] 

Post#940 » by LukasBMW » Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:36 pm

All this BS about Ben Simmons running the PG is a smoke screen. They are stacked at 3/4/5 guys. Total logjam of talent in their front court:


3 Simmons/Covington
4 Saric
5 Embiid/Okafor

They need a guard. They need penetration and shooting. They know Fultz will be off the board and Ball isn't really a Colangelo pick. Makes total sense to me that they are either going to choose between Monk and Fox

OR

Trade Okafor and 3 to Boston (who has been after Okafor) and maybe even another asset for #1 to draft Fultz.
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