The case for Jonathan Isaac

[mr2good]

Haha... Issac fans still holding out hope. He can go **** himself as far as I'm concerned. Didn't want him anyway.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

No need to be rude about it. All it means is that your evaluation of he's not good enough to go top 6 was even more off if he goes top 4.

Nice attitude.

Rude? Attitude? Your mistake is that I give a rats ass about either of those things. Johnathan Issac can go **** himself. If we draft him, I will drink heavily, and will wait the 4-5 years before he turns into anything. There is nothing I can do about that. But he hasnt done a damn thing to go around trying to decide who drafts him. He will play for whichever team takes him and he'll like it.

Relax man. Honestly it sounds like you're already drinking heavily.

[Skin]

Isaac in Phoenix makes a lot of sense. It would be a good situation for both sides. You can trust Phoenix to maximize his potential as a stretch 5.

But, Isaac going to PHX means maybe Tatum or Jackson falls? I'll take that consolation all day.

You think? With Warren, Chriss, and Bender i think they could have a bit of a log jam

I'm hoping it's a smoke screen.

[Skin]

Isaac in Phoenix makes a lot of sense. It would be a good situation for both sides. You can trust Phoenix to maximize his potential as a stretch 5.

But, Isaac going to PHX means maybe Tatum or Jackson falls? I'll take that consolation all day.

I think it is Tatum for Orlando, which is a nice pick. Looking like - Fultz - Jackson- Ball- Isaac- Fox - Tatum if I had to guess based on today's info.

Tatum could be a really great player for us. I'm not going to dog him as much as I did before. But I wish someone would make a "The case for Jayson Tatum" thread because I could use some good points to overcast my doubts.

[mr2good]

Isaac in Phoenix makes a lot of sense. It would be a good situation for both sides. You can trust Phoenix to maximize his potential as a stretch 5.

But, Isaac going to PHX means maybe Tatum or Jackson falls? I'll take that consolation all day.

I think it is Tatum for Orlando, which is a nice pick. Looking like - Fultz - Jackson- Ball- Isaac- Fox - Tatum if I had to guess based on today's info.

Tatum could be a really great player for us. I'm not going to dog him as much as I did before. But I wish someone would make a "The case for Jayson Tatum" thread because I could use some good points to overcast my doubts.

I'm kind of feeling the same way. Is he being overvalued by the media due to his success in college, but not as high on GM's draft boards because his old school ISO game is not current with the NBA?

[bwgood77]

According to PHX media, the Sun's have met with Isaac twice.

That would be an endorsement from an NBA team that wants him to play SF.

Wouldn't blame them. He'll be a better SF than Tatum.

I think we'd love to have 3 guys in Chriss, Bender and Isaac who could all switch onto 3s-5s, hit 3s, block shots, etc....then we have one traditional C and one traditional 3 in Warren and with those 5 they could average 32 minutes a game...the traditional C probably more like 20-25 mpg and a some others a bit more. I think that would be perfect for today's nba.

[Blue_and_Whte]

No need to be rude about it. All it means is that your evaluation of he's not good enough to go top 6 was even more off if he goes top 4.

Nice attitude.

Rude? Attitude? Your mistake is that I give a rats ass about either of those things. Johnathan Issac can go **** himself. If we draft him, I will drink heavily, and will wait the 4-5 years before he turns into anything. There is nothing I can do about that. But he hasnt done a damn thing to go around trying to decide who drafts him. He will play for whichever team takes him and he'll like it.

What did the kid ever do to you? Beat you up and take your lunch money? He can go **** himself because he may or may not work out for the Magic? Because he was in Central Fl and not for a work out? Piss poor attitude. How about you go **** yourself.

Obviously I hit your soft spot calm down tough guy. He can go **** himself because he thinks he's too good for Orlando when he hasn't done a damn thing.

[bwgood77]

Isaac in Phoenix makes a lot of sense. It would be a good situation for both sides. You can trust Phoenix to maximize his potential as a stretch 5.

But, Isaac going to PHX means maybe Tatum or Jackson falls? I'll take that consolation all day.

I think it is Tatum for Orlando, which is a nice pick. Looking like - Fultz - Jackson- Ball- Isaac- Fox - Tatum if I had to guess based on today's info.

Tatum could be a really great player for us. I'm not going to dog him as much as I did before. But I wish someone would make a "The case for Jayson Tatum" thread because I could use some good points to overcast my doubts.

We've been going back and forth between Tatum and Isaac as well....first it was Tatum, then Isaac...now it seems to swing back towards Tatum...it will probably start swinging back the other way. I take it you've read this on Tatum? viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1554037

[cedric76]

I feel like promises are rare in the top 5, but if he was actually in Orlando yesterday and has family in FL and we still can't get a workout with him... Well than he probably has a promise from PHX. My thing is that doesn't make sense. Say Philly trades the 3rd pick to Sac and Sac takes Fox. Well PHX might then take JJ and leave Isaac on the outside looking in.

Hopefully the initial report on twitter is inaccurate and he just doesn't want to work out for the Wolves

Yes , it doesn't smell good

Sad news

Once we miss on jackson and Isaac there is a big drop

Not many other 2way players

Lol the guy most bummed about potentially missing out on Isaac is the guy who was most against tankingcan't make this up

So? No correlation there

[cedric76]

I feel like promises are rare in the top 5, but if he was actually in Orlando yesterday and has family in FL and we still can't get a workout with him... Well than he probably has a promise from PHX. My thing is that doesn't make sense. Say Philly trades the 3rd pick to Sac and Sac takes Fox. Well PHX might then take JJ and leave Isaac on the outside looking in.

Hopefully the initial report on twitter is inaccurate and he just doesn't want to work out for the Wolves

Yes , it doesn't smell good

Sad news

Once we miss on jackson and Isaac there is a big drop

Not many other 2way players

Who is the next 2 way player then?

[KillMonger]

The thought of Isaac going to phoenix at 4?


Because we would have the very very hard choice between



or

[Blue_and_Whte]

No need to be rude about it. All it means is that your evaluation of he's not good enough to go top 6 was even more off if he goes top 4.

Nice attitude.

Rude? Attitude? Your mistake is that I give a rats ass about either of those things. Johnathan Issac can go **** himself. If we draft him, I will drink heavily, and will wait the 4-5 years before he turns into anything. There is nothing I can do about that. But he hasnt done a damn thing to go around trying to decide who drafts him. He will play for whichever team takes him and he'll like it.

Relax man. Honestly it sounds like you're already drinking heavily.

What? This IS me calm. I'm actually training right now so unfortunately I cant drink for another two weeks. Draft day being the exception.

[Just Plain Mark]

Isaac in Phoenix makes a lot of sense. It would be a good situation for both sides. You can trust Phoenix to maximize his potential as a stretch 5.

But, Isaac going to PHX means maybe Tatum or Jackson falls? I'll take that consolation all day.

I think it is Tatum for Orlando, which is a nice pick. Looking like - Fultz - Jackson- Ball- Isaac- Fox - Tatum if I had to guess based on today's info.

Tatum could be a really great player for us. I'm not going to dog him as much as I did before. But I wish someone would make a "The case for Jayson Tatum" thread because I could use some good points to overcast my doubts.

Here's my best effort with limited research:
-if you're looking for a "two way player" than Tatum is probably the only candidate outside of Jackson in the top 10 to fill that role (I don't consider Isaac a "two way player"). For example,
-Tatum posted solid blocks and steals rate and his rebounding percentage was 19.7%, which is supposedly pretty good
-Tatum's defensive rating (97.8) and defensive win share (1.8) are supposedly pretty good
-He actually weighs more (and it looks like its strength instead of mass) than Isaac which means he has an advantage on both ends of the floor
-As a pick-and-roll ball-handler, he managed to create 1.25 PPP on passes, per Synergy Sports, so he's not just a scorer (NOTE: he didn't pass much on his PnR opportunities, but he passes well when he does give the ball up)
-He's a better free throw shooter than Isaac so if Isaac's free throw percentage bodes positively for Isaac's outside shooting, then
doesn't Tatum's better free throw percentage bode even more positively for his outside shooting?
-he scored at a high level compared to other top prospects, but with a lower usage rate than almost all of them

[tiderulz]

I think it is Tatum for Orlando, which is a nice pick. Looking like - Fultz - Jackson- Ball- Isaac- Fox - Tatum if I had to guess based on today's info.

Tatum could be a really great player for us. I'm not going to dog him as much as I did before. But I wish someone would make a "The case for Jayson Tatum" thread because I could use some good points to overcast my doubts.

We've been going back and forth between Tatum and Isaac as well....first it was Tatum, then Isaac...now it seems to swing back towards Tatum...it will probably start swinging back the other way. I take it you've read this on Tatum? viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1554037

nice write up, thanks for the link

[cedric76]

Haha... Issac fans still holding out hope. He can go **** himself as far as I'm concerned. Didn't want him anyway.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

No need to be rude about it. All it means is that your evaluation of he's not good enough to go top 6 was even more off if he goes top 4.

Nice attitude.

Rude? Attitude? Your mistake is that I give a rats ass about either of those things. Johnathan Issac can go **** himself. If we draft him, I will drink heavily, and will wait the 4-5 years before he turns into anything. There is nothing I can do about that. But he hasnt done a damn thing to go around trying to decide who drafts him. He will play for whichever team takes him and he'll like it.

Seems like you have already started drinking heavily

[cedric76]

Isaac in Phoenix makes a lot of sense. It would be a good situation for both sides. You can trust Phoenix to maximize his potential as a stretch 5.

But, Isaac going to PHX means maybe Tatum or Jackson falls? I'll take that consolation all day.

I think it is Tatum for Orlando, which is a nice pick. Looking like - Fultz - Jackson- Ball- Isaac- Fox - Tatum if I had to guess based on today's info.

Tatum could be a really great player for us. I'm not going to dog him as much as I did before. But I wish someone would make a "The case for Jayson Tatum" thread because I could use some good points to overcast my doubts.

There is one in the draft board. People keep comparing him to t12 but with his 6'11 wingspan and footwork I don't see any reason why he wouldn't be a good defender

[Just Plain Mark]

There are better shooters than Isaac in this draft, but DSJ is not among them. You're criticizing Isaac's 3P% (34.8%) though it is only marginally lower than DSJ's (35.9%). Isaac was significantly better on 2-point jumpers (41.0% vs 30.5%) and in free throw percentage (78.0% vs 71.2%). Isaac is a better shooter than DSJ at this point.

You can like DSJ more than Isaac. I don't, but I have no qualms with those that do. It just doesn't make much sense to attack Isaac's shooting to make your case for DSJ.

There are very significant differences in the shots that Isaac and Smith, Jr were taking so just posting shooting percentages as evidence of Isaac's superiority as a shooter isn't a complete argument. Isaac hardly ever shot jump shots out of a pick and roll or just pulling up, so the Smith and Isaac shot chart is very different in terms of the types of shots they took and the volume of shots they took of each type. For example, Smith Jr took and made more unassisted three pointers than Fultz, Ball, or Fox which makes sense given how poor Smith, Jr's teammates were on offense. Also, Isaac had some really poor months shooting the three point shot, one month he shot 21% and another month he shot something like 17% for the month from 3. And Isaac's percentages are on pretty low volume.

Smith Jr definitely shot a poor percentage on 2 point jumpers, but the question is whether that's because he isn't a good shooter or because those weren't good shots.

You're absolutely right, but we have to work with the information we have and none of it portrays DSJ as a good shooter. It's wishful thinking to believe otherwise. Regardless of the circumstances, DSJ's 2-point jump shot percentage was very poor and there are no mitigating circumstances for free throws.

It's also inaccurate to blame the supporting cast at NCST. He had some nice players around him. DSJ's style was ball-dominant, pound it into the floor, isolation probing. When he got to the basket, he was productive. When he didn't, he wasn't. He didn't work for offense when he didn't have possession. There is nobody else to blame for his percentages.

I don't think its inaccurate to blame the rest of his team for part of Smith's shooting percentage and I'm not alone in that assertion. The school fired Smith's head coach after the season, which isn't a ringing endorsement for his effectiveness. I also think the numbers bear this out and contradict what you said in the bolded line above. First, at least at one point in February of this year (I can't find numbers for the whole year yet), Smith was shooting 10-18 on unguarded catch and shoot 3's and 8-29 on guarded catch and shoot three's.

[Gomagic44]

Lol. So much salt in here. I'm open to Tatum or dsj.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[The Real Dalic]

No need to be rude about it. All it means is that your evaluation of he's not good enough to go top 6 was even more off if he goes top 4.

Nice attitude.

Rude? Attitude? Your mistake is that I give a rats ass about either of those things. Johnathan Issac can go **** himself. If we draft him, I will drink heavily, and will wait the 4-5 years before he turns into anything. There is nothing I can do about that. But he hasnt done a damn thing to go around trying to decide who drafts him. He will play for whichever team takes him and he'll like it.

What did the kid ever do to you? Beat you up and take your lunch money? He can go **** himself because he may or may not work out for the Magic? Because he was in Central Fl and not for a work out? Piss poor attitude. How about you go **** yourself.

He's right though, we don't want a player who doesn't wanna be here.

[The Real Dalic]

I think it is Tatum for Orlando, which is a nice pick. Looking like - Fultz - Jackson- Ball- Isaac- Fox - Tatum if I had to guess based on today's info.

Tatum could be a really great player for us. I'm not going to dog him as much as I did before. But I wish someone would make a "The case for Jayson Tatum" thread because I could use some good points to overcast my doubts.

I'm kind of feeling the same way. Is he being overvalued by the media due to his success in college, but not as high on GM's draft boards because his old school ISO game is not current with the NBA?

ISO will never be an "old school" thing. There will always be a need to have a guy that you can throw the ball too when the offensive sets break down. Even with all the players and passing that the Warriors have they still needed Durant and Curry to take over individually at times. We don't have our Curry or Durant, we need to find him anyway we can, I believe Tatum is the guy that can do that for us in this draft. I obviously could be wrong about him though. I just think he's the most equipped to do that.

[Knightro]

Here's my best effort with limited research:
-if you're looking for a "two way player" than Tatum is probably the only candidate outside of Jackson in the top 10 to fill that role (I don't consider Isaac a "two way player"). For example,
-Tatum posted solid blocks and steals rate and his rebounding percentage was 19.7%, which is supposedly pretty good
-Tatum's defensive rating (97.8) and defensive win share (1.8) are supposedly pretty good
-He actually weighs more (and it looks like its strength instead of mass) than Isaac which means he has an advantage on both ends of the floor
-As a pick-and-roll ball-handler, he managed to create 1.25 PPP on passes, per Synergy Sports, so he's not just a scorer (NOTE: he didn't pass much on his PnR opportunities, but he passes well when he does give the ball up)
-He's a better free throw shooter than Isaac so if Isaac's free throw percentage bodes positively for Isaac's outside shooting, then
doesn't Tatum's better free throw percentage bode even more positively for his outside shooting?
-he scored at a high level compared to other top prospects, but with a lower usage rate than almost all of them

Not sure how you could say Tatum has the potential to be a "two way" player, but Isaac does not.

Let's go line by line...

-Isaac's block rate, steal rate and rebounding percentage were all higher than Tatum's.
-Isaac's defensive rating was much better and his defensive win shares were higher.
-Isaac is listed at 210, Tatum is listed 205 (going off ESPN and Basketball Reference here). So Isaac is taller, heavier and has a longer wingspan.
-Tatum did have a higher usage than Isaac, but Isaac had a much better TS%, eFG% and also was much better at drawing fouls and getting to the line
-Both guys are good from the line. Tatum is 6% better, but that's not much of an issue when both guys are 78% plus.

Wins for Tatum: ball handling, offensive versatility, isolation play, passing, offensive aggressiveness
Wins for Isaac: measurables, defense versatility, rebounding, getting to the line, offensive efficiency
Wash/Ties: Perimeter shooting

Both guys have pretty clear two-way ability. Tatum is the better offensive player, Isaac the better defensive player/rebounder.

However, the main difference to me is that Isaac already looks like he a passable offensive skill with his ability to shoot from the perimeter whereas Tatum's defensive ability is more predicated on the fact he's big enough and long enough to be solid more so than what he's shown on the court.

If Isaac's off the board, I'd have absolutely no problem with Tatum.