2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV

[LloydFree]

Well, let me ask you this. Do you think the Warriors would not win a single championship with CJ McCollum (since we're using the arbitrary 6'4 and under criteria)?

Facts vs Fantasy.

I'm looking at the facts and you are asking me to play fantasy. It's fine if you like guys drafted to be sub 6'4" shooting guards. I just can't think of any that are champions as starters.

Andrew Toney

That was 35 years ago and Andrew Toney had PG skills and regularly ran PG when Cheeks sat.

I don't agree with the premise that you can't win with. 6'4 or under SG, because it has been done recently, But the player needs to have PG skills or be a great defender to be more than just a role player on a good team.

[SelfishPlayer]

Well, let me ask you this. Do you think the Warriors would not win a single championship with CJ McCollum (since we're using the arbitrary 6'4 and under criteria)?

Facts vs Fantasy.

I'm looking at the facts and you are asking me to play fantasy. It's fine if you like guys drafted to be sub 6'4" shooting guards. I just can't think of any that are champions as starters.

Not surprisingly, your answer is abrasive for no reason.

I'm sure DeShawn Stevenson was the real reason the Mavs won the championship. If Jason Terry had started, they definitely would have lost, despite being one of their key players in the playoffs that year. Or maybe it was because they had one of the best PF and PG of all time in Nowitzki and Kidd.

Also humorous is you're probably only looking the modern NBA championships (2000-2017) which contains 7 champions. How bold of you. And 6'4+ barely includes Kobe Bryant (http://fansided.com/2017/03/27/kobe-bryant-height-6-foot-4-lakers/) and Dwyane Wade (http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Dwyane-Wade-4726/).

Nonsense as usual.

People like you will ride the 3 point trend but not the anti sub 6'4" player drafted to be a SG trend. I've shown you that it is a trend so you should drop your outdated way of thinking.

[SelfishPlayer]

Facts vs Fantasy.

I'm looking at the facts and you are asking me to play fantasy. It's fine if you like guys drafted to be sub 6'4" shooting guards. I just can't think of any that are champions as starters.

Andrew Toney

That was 35 years ago and Andrew Toney had PG skills and regularly ran PG when Cheeks sat.

I don't agree with the premise that you can't win with. 6'4 or under SG, because it has been done recently, But the player needs to have PG skills or be a great defender to be more than just a role player on a good team.

That's true, that's all part of the information that I use. Joe Dumars is a guy too.

[SelfishPlayer]

When has Dennis Smith Jr ever displayed incredible ballhandling skills?

When has he not?

dsj has the best handles in the lottery, which are very good, but they're not elite like kyrie's

I've seen Fox use the AI crossover and drive baseline on a UNC big and make Ball leap off of his feet in one of his better plays of the season. I think that Fox has the best handle in the lottery. Smith has a very ordinary handle and it is kind of shaky IMO. Some video maker detailed how eager he is to give the ball up while under heavy on ball pressure.

[Negrodamus]

Facts vs Fantasy.

I'm looking at the facts and you are asking me to play fantasy. It's fine if you like guys drafted to be sub 6'4" shooting guards. I just can't think of any that are champions as starters.

Not surprisingly, your answer is abrasive for no reason.

I'm sure DeShawn Stevenson was the real reason the Mavs won the championship. If Jason Terry had started, they definitely would have lost, despite being one of their key players in the playoffs that year. Or maybe it was because they had one of the best PF and PG of all time in Nowitzki and Kidd.

Also humorous is you're probably only looking the modern NBA championships (2000-2017) which contains 7 champions. How bold of you. And 6'4+ barely includes Kobe Bryant (http://fansided.com/2017/03/27/kobe-bryant-height-6-foot-4-lakers/) and Dwyane Wade (http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Dwyane-Wade-4726/).

Nonsense as usual.

People like you will ride the 3 point trend but not the anti sub 6'4" player drafted to be a SG trend. I've shown you that it is a trend so you should drop your outdated way of thinking.

And people like you think a cold summer's day is an valid argument that global warming isn't real. You find anecdotal evidence live by it. Once again, you're not worth the time it takes to type this.

[SelfishPlayer]

Not surprisingly, your answer is abrasive for no reason.

I'm sure DeShawn Stevenson was the real reason the Mavs won the championship. If Jason Terry had started, they definitely would have lost, despite being one of their key players in the playoffs that year. Or maybe it was because they had one of the best PF and PG of all time in Nowitzki and Kidd.

Also humorous is you're probably only looking the modern NBA championships (2000-2017) which contains 7 champions. How bold of you. And 6'4+ barely includes Kobe Bryant (http://fansided.com/2017/03/27/kobe-bryant-height-6-foot-4-lakers/) and Dwyane Wade (http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Dwyane-Wade-4726/).

Nonsense as usual.

People like you will ride the 3 point trend but not the anti sub 6'4" player drafted to be a SG trend. I've shown you that it is a trend so you should drop your outdated way of thinking.

And people like you think a cold summer's day is an valid argument that global warming isn't real. You find anecdotal evidence live by it. Once again, you're not worth the time it takes to type this.

I thought it was called climate change?

[Kobblehead]

The appeal of Donovan Mitchell for me is that there's still enough youth and athleticism to present a decent upside and a lot of the development was already done for us by Pitino and staff.

This guy is going to be a contributor while on his rookie deal and he's going to make us better. That's ultimately what you want from a lotto pick. I heavily prefer that approach to the draft as opposed to coming at it like Ryan Howard/Adam Dunn and just hacking away and swinging wildly for potential stars.

[Sixerscan]

Facts vs Fantasy.

I'm looking at the facts and you are asking me to play fantasy. It's fine if you like guys drafted to be sub 6'4" shooting guards. I just can't think of any that are champions as starters.

Andrew Toney

That was 35 years ago and Andrew Toney had PG skills and regularly ran PG when Cheeks sat.

I don't agree with the premise that you can't win with. 6'4 or under SG, because it has been done recently, But the player needs to have PG skills or be a great defender to be more than just a role player on a good team.

Well he didn't say in the last 10 years.

Aren't those the sort of things you need to do to be more than a role player, regardless of your height? Or have some other out of this world skill? I'm not sure what height in the abstract has to do with anything. Anyway I'm guessing Mitchell has a longer wingspan than most recent championship starting 2 guards besides maybe Wade. This height thing is one step beyond "name a champion 2 guard that was born on a Tuesday"

[cksdayoff]

When has he not?

dsj has the best handles in the lottery, which are very good, but they're not elite like kyrie's

I've seen Fox use the AI crossover and drive baseline on a UNC big and make Ball leap off of his feet in one of his better plays of the season. I think that Fox has the best handle in the lottery. Smith has a very ordinary handle and it is kind of shaky IMO. Some video maker detailed how eager he is to give the ball up while under heavy on ball pressure.

imo from what I've seen of fox, his handles are a bit loose. I just haven't seen him dribble in tight space, I've seen dsj do it, I guess it's because he's lower to the ground. what fox has going for him is his exceptional quickness.

[SelfishPlayer]

dsj has the best handles in the lottery, which are very good, but they're not elite like kyrie's

I've seen Fox use the AI crossover and drive baseline on a UNC big and make Ball leap off of his feet in one of his better plays of the season. I think that Fox has the best handle in the lottery. Smith has a very ordinary handle and it is kind of shaky IMO. Some video maker detailed how eager he is to give the ball up while under heavy on ball pressure.

imo from what I've seen of fox, his handles are a bit loose. I just haven't seen him dribble in tight space, I've seen dsj do it, I guess it's because he's lower to the ground. what fox has going for him is his exceptional quickness.

Fox does appear like he wouldn't be much of a dribbler just like Dennis Smith looks like he would be in the Kyrie Irving/Kemba Walker/Steve Francis category. When in a complete iso situation Fox is willing to take it to the playground. He's not elite, but he's no phony either. DSJ in iso is more like a SG with a nice handle whose playing off of the threat of his pull up with hensitations and stuff but not actual dribble trickery.

[smittybanton]

dsj has the best handles in the lottery, which are very good, but they're not elite like kyrie's

I've seen Fox use the AI crossover and drive baseline on a UNC big and make Ball leap off of his feet in one of his better plays of the season. I think that Fox has the best handle in the lottery. Smith has a very ordinary handle and it is kind of shaky IMO. Some video maker detailed how eager he is to give the ball up while under heavy on ball pressure.

imo from what I've seen of fox, his handles are a bit loose. I just haven't seen him dribble in tight space, I've seen dsj do it, I guess it's because he's lower to the ground. what fox has going for him is his exceptional quickness.

Kyrie's handle is the best in the game. So its not really a knock on DSJ. His handles are elite. Baron Davis-level. Watch the highlight dunk reels, and notice that they more often come off his left-hand dribble. There's more to it than that, of course. I'm a big Fox fan, but his right hand is half-decent, in my opinion. While I like Fox's floater, I think DSJ's handle allows him to get closer to the rim more often.

[SelfishPlayer]

The appeal of Donovan Mitchell for me is that there's still enough youth and athleticism to present a decent upside and a lot of the development was already done for us by Pitino and staff.

This guy is going to be a contributor while on his rookie deal and he's going to make us better. That's ultimately what you want from a lotto pick. I heavily prefer that approach to the draft as opposed to coming at it like Ryan Howard/Adam Dunn and just hacking away and swinging wildly for potential stars.

Just for the record, who is Pitino's best NBA guard ever?

[shawn_hemp]

dsj has the best handles in the lottery, which are very good, but they're not elite like kyrie's

I've seen Fox use the AI crossover and drive baseline on a UNC big and make Ball leap off of his feet in one of his better plays of the season. I think that Fox has the best handle in the lottery. Smith has a very ordinary handle and it is kind of shaky IMO. Some video maker detailed how eager he is to give the ball up while under heavy on ball pressure.

imo from what I've seen of fox, his handles are a bit loose. I just haven't seen him dribble in tight space, I've seen dsj do it, I guess it's because he's lower to the ground. what fox has going for him is his exceptional quickness.

Yeah no way does Fox have better handles than Fultz and I'd put DSJ ahead of him as well

Fox is better at driving past people because he's quicker but as far as actual ball handling skills, DSJ has excellent body control and probably the best crossover in this draft. He really reminds me of Baron Davis a lot

[SelfishPlayer]

I've seen Fox use the AI crossover and drive baseline on a UNC big and make Ball leap off of his feet in one of his better plays of the season. I think that Fox has the best handle in the lottery. Smith has a very ordinary handle and it is kind of shaky IMO. Some video maker detailed how eager he is to give the ball up while under heavy on ball pressure.

imo from what I've seen of fox, his handles are a bit loose. I just haven't seen him dribble in tight space, I've seen dsj do it, I guess it's because he's lower to the ground. what fox has going for him is his exceptional quickness.

Yeah no way does Fox have better handles than Fultz and I'd put DSJ ahead of him as well

Fox is better at driving past people because he's quicker but as far as actual ball handling skills, DSJ has excellent body control and probably the best crossover in this draft. He really reminds me of Baron Davis a lot

Post video of this crossover in a college game.

[freshie2]

DSJ reminds me more of Steve Francis due to his superior athleticism...can't touch him at 3, but if they somehow trade down or get a second top 10 pick I'd be on board to getting DSJ. A little risky, but tremendous talent...have to get him to buy in to the defensive end, but he may be the most talented player in the draft.

[Kobblehead]

First Dominique Hawkins and now Humphries? Good lord, Bryan.

[Negrodamus]

First Dominique Hawkins and now Humphries? Good lord, Bryan.

Humphries is going straight to Europe. No way he gets drafted.

[LloydFree]

Andrew Toney

That was 35 years ago and Andrew Toney had PG skills and regularly ran PG when Cheeks sat.

I don't agree with the premise that you can't win with. 6'4 or under SG, because it has been done recently, But the player needs to have PG skills or be a great defender to be more than just a role player on a good team.

Well he didn't say in the last 10 years.

Aren't those the sort of things you need to do to be more than a role player, regardless of your height? Or have some other out of this world skill? I'm not sure what height in the abstract has to do with anything. Anyway I'm guessing Mitchell has a longer wingspan than most recent championship starting 2 guards besides maybe Wade. This height thing is one step beyond "name a champion 2 guard that was born on a Tuesday"

Now you're​ overstating your point. When, where and how you were born is irrelevant. Your physical attributes are relevant. You're basically saying height in basketball is irrelevant, and you know it's not. Otherwise Jordan Bell, Juwan Evans and Semi Ojeleye would be top 10 picks in this draft.

He's simplifying and ruining his own argument by being dogmatic on the specific height you have to be, in order to be a champion. But the point is, if you are under 6'4 today, you better have multiple high level skills in order to be a starter in the league today. I don't know that Mitchell has multiple high level skills. He's a good college defender and a decent (not great) shooter. He's not an elite ballhandler and he's a downright mediocre distributor. So you're basically dreaming he can become Avery Bradley at best, who until recently everybody in the league looked at as a 3rd guard.

[MatthewGeigerII]

I know a lot of sixers fans like Monk, Smith, Isaac... other guys that they just don't want to see at #3 but still like them alot.
There are also SOME fans that would take these types of guys at #3.

My question is... what would you give up (future assets, players) to move back up into the lottery and take a 2nd player - keeping Jackson, Ball, or Fox at 3.

The scenario obviously would have to be one that isn't a huge overpay - i feel like a team like the suns or wolves want a young player now - so ill avoid them. but two teams i would target (the two teams that may be looking for a rebuild very soon, could use big assets).. magic, knicks, and dallas. kings could be in at play for #10 ill count them for now for markennen/mitchell's sake.

Possible deals?
Magic - they don't owe anyone any future picks - and they have the raptors one this year. pick's probably won't sway them - or at least we know they covet/regret one man. Dario. Would you do a deal like Dario + future sixers 1st for #6?
Scenario plays out: Grab Fox at 3, Monk at 6. Fox, Monk, Covington, Simmons, Embiid. BBN lives on?

Knicks - Bad Contracts, they got bad contracts. they also owe their own second out from now until 2021. would you take on a bad contract for pick #8? Noah (3 years, max 19 mil) lee (3 years, 12 mil)... ill exclude melo. Would do you Lee + 36 + 39 for #8?
Scenario plays out: Grab Jackson at 3, Grab DSJ at 8.... DSJ Jackson Covington Simmons Embiid

Dallas - also has bad contracts and owes every 2nd til 2020. wes matthews (1 year 17 mil), dwight powell (3 years 10 mil).. excluding barnes. would do you something like 2018 Sixers 1st (top 3 protected, unprotected 2019) for dwight powell, #8 - get cuban gambling on a pick that is likely to dive in value after next season?
scenario plays out: Grab jackson at 3, markennen at 9... Simmons, Jackson , Covington, Markennen, Embiid

Kings - we're all aware of their situation. IMO vlade only makes a deal if he can undo his last botched trade. the sixers would have to squeeze extra buy low assets out of him however. Would you do 2019 kings pick back for #10, McClemore, and right to swap picks in 2018?
Scenario plays out - Grab jackson at 3, mitchell at 10. Simmons, Mitchell, Jackson, Saric, Embiid.

obviously some are more far fetched then others - but general idea is to keep 3 and trade into the top 10.

[Kobblehead]

you're basically dreaming he can become Avery Bradley at best, who until recently everybody in the league looked at as a 3rd guard.

Or a bigger version of Patrick Beverly. Don't most agree Beverly is a fine complimentary starting off-ball PG?

Beverly has wound up generating the 11th highest VORP in the 2009 draft. Only 6 of the lotto picks that year have been more valuable in their career. Don't be surprised if Mitchell has a similar story.