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2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV

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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV 

Post#1721 » by 76ciology » Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:07 pm

PLO wrote:
76ciology wrote:Spent hours watching Fultz@washington clips. The impression I get is he's like Kyrie as the lead guy with Cavs. His scoring is not good enough to outscore the opposing team or compensate for his team's defense.

Like Kyrie he needs to play with impact guys and use him properly by lowering the volume of his challenged shots.


I've seen the Kyrie comps on here for Fultz - I pretty much disagree. Fultz is more the combo guard type a la Curry, Harden. Kyrie is a Steve Francis like throwback which is why Durant was comparing him to Iverson during the week. Kyrie is obviously hyper-skilled but he's much more an iso guy - if there's any comp for Kyrie in this draft its DSJ, though its true DSJ could be moulded into something resembling a Harden in the right situation.


I think throwbacks are more of pure point like Rondo, Rubio and MAYBE Lonzo.

What I mean is Fultz like to take challenged shots like Kyrie. While Harden and Curry do know when to take it or pass it up.
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV 

Post#1722 » by Foshan » Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:07 pm

SelfishPlayer wrote:Spambot...


This kind of posting is not helpful to the conversation.
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV 

Post#1723 » by cksdayoff » Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:25 pm

76ciology wrote:
PLO wrote:
76ciology wrote:Spent hours watching Fultz@washington clips. The impression I get is he's like Kyrie as the lead guy with Cavs. His scoring is not good enough to outscore the opposing team or compensate for his team's defense.

Like Kyrie he needs to play with impact guys and use him properly by lowering the volume of his challenged shots.


I've seen the Kyrie comps on here for Fultz - I pretty much disagree. Fultz is more the combo guard type a la Curry, Harden. Kyrie is a Steve Francis like throwback which is why Durant was comparing him to Iverson during the week. Kyrie is obviously hyper-skilled but he's much more an iso guy - if there's any comp for Kyrie in this draft its DSJ, though its true DSJ could be moulded into something resembling a Harden in the right situation.


I think throwbacks are more of pure point like Rondo, Rubio and MAYBE Lonzo.

What I mean is Fultz like to take challenged shots like Kyrie. While Harden and Curry do know when to take it or pass it up.


harden and curry haven't met a shot they didn't like.
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV 

Post#1724 » by Kobblehead » Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:25 pm

Thoughts on tiny dudes like Frank Mason and Derrick Walton? Worth drafting in the 2nd round?
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV 

Post#1725 » by Chris76 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:27 pm

76ciology wrote:
PLO wrote:
76ciology wrote:Spent hours watching Fultz@washington clips. The impression I get is he's like Kyrie as the lead guy with Cavs. His scoring is not good enough to outscore the opposing team or compensate for his team's defense.

Like Kyrie he needs to play with impact guys and use him properly by lowering the volume of his challenged shots.


I've seen the Kyrie comps on here for Fultz - I pretty much disagree. Fultz is more the combo guard type a la Curry, Harden. Kyrie is a Steve Francis like throwback which is why Durant was comparing him to Iverson during the week. Kyrie is obviously hyper-skilled but he's much more an iso guy - if there's any comp for Kyrie in this draft its DSJ, though its true DSJ could be moulded into something resembling a Harden in the right situation.


I think throwbacks are more of pure point like Rondo, Rubio and MAYBE Lonzo.

What I mean is Fultz like to take challenged shots like Kyrie. While Harden and Curry do know when to take it or pass it up.


Fultz took a lot of challenged shots because he was the primary playmaker and the best option at the time. Simmons best talent is getting teammates more efficient shots. Fultz and Simmons could be a combo that gets a lot of assists for themselves and others.
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV 

Post#1726 » by cksdayoff » Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:33 pm

Kobblehead wrote:Thoughts on tiny dudes like Frank Mason and Derrick Walton? Worth drafting in the 2nd round?


what draft range does Josh Hart fall into? I wouldn't touch midgets. Rather draft a project wing
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV 

Post#1727 » by Aussiepiston1 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:36 pm

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Aussiepiston1 wrote:
Ericb5 wrote:
Agreed. I would rather trade 3 for Russell straight up than pay 3 plus a top 5 pick next year for Fultz.

In blackjack parlance, we are hitting on an 18 here. Even if we get a 3 it is a bonehead gamble.


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i hope BC isn't dumb enough to give the Lakers pick.
I'm gonna have faith that He tells Ainge You obviously want Jackson and I want Fultz but I'm only willing to give you the worse of our pick or lakers next year, Okafor, #3 and #36 other wise I'll just trade the #3 for Russell who is the same player as Fultz :D

Would be shocked if the Lakers pick wasnt involved...

I hear ya and will probably look back one day and love the trade but right now it's a hard pill to swallow.
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV 

Post#1728 » by Kobblehead » Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:57 pm

cksdayoff wrote:
Kobblehead wrote:Thoughts on tiny dudes like Frank Mason and Derrick Walton? Worth drafting in the 2nd round?


what draft range does Josh Hart fall into? I wouldn't touch midgets. Rather draft a project wing

Who knows, he seems to keep getting a 2nd round valuation, but I think his multiple seasons of high impact play gets him drafted in the 1st round.

I'm not sure which way I lean. Is it better to have a pretty good 4th guard (Frank Mason) or gamble on a guy that might not even be an NBA player (L.J. Peak)?
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV 

Post#1729 » by cksdayoff » Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:21 pm

#failforfultz
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV 

Post#1730 » by SelfishPlayer » Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:41 pm

Fultz 0.666 isolation points per possession!!! Nooooooo!
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV 

Post#1731 » by Kobblehead » Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:43 pm

shawn_hemp wrote:I'd rather draft Damyean Dotson than Josh Hart in the 2nd round considering I don't see either of them being anything more than an occasional shooter at best and I feel like Dotson is way better at that.

Maybe Hart could surprised me with tough defensive play, but correct me if I'm wrong (ironically, I don't really see a lot of Nova games), that wasn't really what he hung his hat on right?


Dotson is a better athlete with a more pure stroke, but I think Hart is the better all-around basketball player. I also think he's a surer bet to be a quality NBA contributor. Dotson is a risk. His character is in question and his game is one dimensional.

Hart is not known to be a plus defender, but he won't be a liability either. He'll likely play slightly below league average for the position. Dotson doesn't even try defensively, dating back to his Oregon days.

Dotson is definitely worth consideration. He's skilled, athletic and has great size. He's a pretty decent basketball player. I'd probably prefer to get him as a Summer League invite and sign him to a non-guaranteed deal if he impresses.
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV 

Post#1732 » by 76ciology » Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:44 pm

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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV 

Post#1733 » by Ericb5 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:06 pm

Chris76 wrote:
76ciology wrote:Spent hours watching Fultz@washington clips. The impression I get is he's like Kyrie as the lead guy with Cavs. His scoring is not good enough to outscore the opposing team or compensate for his team's defense.

Like Kyrie he needs to play with impact guys and use him properly by lowering the volume of his challenged shots.


If Fultz's defense against PGs is above average, he is a perfect fit between Simmons and Embiid. You can see he passes very well and the ball movement should be better with his vision. Jackson/Isaac are great prospects, but Fultz fits so well. I hope the trade is for real.


He is big enough to guard both backcourt positions, and as long as he puts in effort defensively I think he will be fine considering that he would be playing in front of Embiid.

On offense he is exactly what we need in that he can score, shoot, and handle it.

This would be an overpay on our part, but we all know that Hinkie gave us the assets to enable us to overpay if we needed to get a key player. It's a risk, and I guess we just have to trust Bryan on this one.

I'm already missing Josh Jackson though.


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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV 

Post#1734 » by HotelVitale » Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:53 pm

Ericb5 wrote: On offense he is exactly what we need in that he can score, shoot, and handle it. This would be an overpay on our part, but we all know that Hinkie gave us the assets to enable us to overpay if we needed to get a key player. It's a risk, and I guess we just have to trust Bryan on this one.

Not trying to rag on Fultz unnecessarily, but I'm really not sure that he's #1 overall pick good at any of these things. For handling/driving, his handle isn't super tight, and he doesn't have super moves off the dribble--okay in/out dribble, hard drive off head fake, nothing-special euro step--and when he beat guys in the NCAA it was mostly because they were smaller or were just playing straight-up lazy defense. He's also a solid but non-spectacular finisher, doesn't have that wow athlete stuff that many top driving prospects have. I don't think he'll flop as a dribbler/finisher but he's not your typical #1 overall in that regard.

As for shooting, he's definitely got a nice pull-up and I like his chances as a reliable if not elite spot-up player. That's good and its a nice fit for us--but his range doesn't seem particularly good, and pull-ups just aren't a great go-to move. (Is our missing piece really a guy who volume shoots long 2s off the dribble?) I also worry that he's not quite as good at midrange and 3 pull-ups as this season showed--he's def pretty good but he was more or less elite this season--and that regression there means he's not a particularly good offensive player compared with other solid NBA players.

Another thing that seems skewed to me is what Fultz being on a bad team means. Folks keep talking about his weak teammates as a boon for him--since he HAD to create and HAD to take shots--but to my eyes it meant he could shoot when he wanted to and not shoot when he didn't, since he always had the green light and no one could take the ball from his hands. If you watch full games of him, he frequently takes off like 5-7 minutes at a time, deciding that he's not going to assert himself or is only going to play passively within the system as his team gets pummeled. And then he'll decide it's time to go and rattle off 5-6 possessions in a row where he's attacking (often when his team is already down by 20). Again it's not that the points he scored are bogus or that he's a fraud, it's more that overlooking context when looking at his stats and highlights leaves you with a picture of dominance that I just didn't see in games.
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV 

Post#1735 » by Negrodamus » Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:03 pm

HotelVitale wrote:
Ericb5 wrote: On offense he is exactly what we need in that he can score, shoot, and handle it. This would be an overpay on our part, but we all know that Hinkie gave us the assets to enable us to overpay if we needed to get a key player. It's a risk, and I guess we just have to trust Bryan on this one.

Not trying to rag on Fultz unnecessarily, but I'm really not sure that he's #1 overall pick good at any of these things. For handling/driving, his handle isn't super tight, and he doesn't have super moves off the dribble--okay in/out dribble, hard drive off head fake, nothing-special euro step--and when he beat guys in the NCAA it was mostly because they were smaller or were just playing straight-up lazy defense. He's also a solid but non-spectacular finisher, doesn't have that wow athlete stuff that many top driving prospects have. I don't think he'll flop as a dribbler/finisher but he's not your typical #1 overall in that regard.

As for shooting, he's definitely got a nice pull-up and I like his chances as a reliable if not elite spot-up player. That's good and its a nice fit for us--but his range doesn't seem particularly good, and pull-ups just aren't a great go-to move. (Is our missing piece really a guy who volume shoots long 2s off the dribble?) I also worry that he's not quite as good at midrange and 3 pull-ups as this season showed--he's def pretty good but he was more or less elite this season--and that regression there means he's not a particularly good offensive player compared with other solid NBA players.

Another thing that seems skewed to me is that Fultz being on a bad team means. Folks keep talking about his weak teammates as a boon for him--since he HAD to create and HAD to take shots--but to my eyes it meant he could shoot when he wanted to and not shoot when he didn't, since he always had the green light and no one could take the ball from his hands. If you watch full games of him, he frequently takes off like 5-7 minutes at a time, deciding that he's not going to assert himself or is only going to play passively within the system as his team gets pummeled. And then he'll decide it's time to go and rattle off 5-6 possessions in a row where he's attacking (often when his team is already down by 20). Again it's not that the points he scored are bogus or that he's a fraud, it's more that overlooking context when looking at his stats and highlights leaves you with a picture of dominance that I just didn't see in games.


I actually think Fultz's passing is elite and his scoring is pretty good. Watching some of his games last night, he was whipping perfect passes to his teammates and they constantly blew the opportunity. The fact that he scored with such high percentages is very promising because he took so many contested shots which might be a result of the team falling behind so much due to their inadequacies. The problem with Washington was certainly not him last year. Very similar to Simmons on LSU.

While I'm definitely troubled by his indifference on defense, I do think he, and Simmons, are going to make Embiid a 25+ ppg scorer. Fultz looked like a magician on PnRs.
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV 

Post#1736 » by cksdayoff » Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:18 pm

Negrodamus wrote:I actually think Fultz's passing is elite and his scoring is pretty good. Watching some of his games last night, he was whipping perfect passes to his teammates and they constantly blew the opportunity.


been saying that all season long on deaf ears. Watch him penetrate into the heart of the defense and whip beautiful passes to open bigs like timmons, dime and Dickerson only for them to brick or hesitate on open layup attempts and miss. watch him create shooting opportunities to Jones, thybulle and crisp only for them to brick open threes.

also, regarding his offense, fultz could very well be the second leading scorer on the team next season
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV 

Post#1737 » by HotelVitale » Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:23 pm

Negrodamus wrote: I actually think Fultz's passing is elite and his scoring is pretty good. Watching some of his games last night, he was whipping perfect passes to his teammates and they constantly blew the opportunity. The fact that he scored with such high percentages is very promising because he took so many contested shots which might be a result of the team falling behind so much due to their inadequacies. The problem with Washington was certainly not him last year. Very similar to Simmons on LSU. While I'm definitely troubled by his indifference on defense, I do think he, and Simmons, are going to make Embiid a 25+ ppg scorer. Fultz looked like a magician on PnRs.

My pt about his %s and playing on a bad team is not the dumb cliche that he can't be great because his team lost a lot; rather it's that, if you watch the games, he took long stretches off as his team got piled on and then randomly decided it was go time, which meant that he wasn't taking those shots while carrying the burden a 1st option does, and he also often wasn't taking those shots in competitive games (with correspondingly competitive defenses).

My more general reservation about him--which I've said in like 10 posts here over the past 6 months--is that many/most of his plays and moves don't look like NBA stuff. It's not like Simmons where you look at some highlights and say, 'that'll need to look a little different in the NBA but that move will slice through NBA defenses all day long'; watching Fultz I say to myself, 'that drive won't work, a good defender will smother that move, he'll need to do something a lot more clever in the lane than that one,' etc. Sometimes he does a little jab stop step-back or side-step shot that looks like it's NBA speed, and sometimes he has a nice euro-step in transition that seems NBA-ish, but most of his plays just seem like they're not quick enough and don't have enough shake to work at the next level. (That goes for most drives as well as some pull-ups.) He definitely has some tools that could allow him to be better at the next level, but I'm very skeptical of the assumption that he'll be able to speed up his game without any problems (instantly take on Dwyane Wade's speed and dynamic-ness because he has some of the basic tools that Wade had at his age.) I just think we're looking at a solid prospect rather than a great one, and someone who's going to need to play up to his very best skill potential to be an excellent player.

(Also, re: passing: If you watch highlights you come away with the impression that he can really pass, but if you watch games you notice him more as a score-first PG who gives the ball up a lot and chills. Sort of like D Russell as a passing prospect (though I don't think they're comparable)--remember when everyone saw those couple of sweet bounce passes that DLo did at OSU and thought he was some sort of rare passing savant? Turns out that, just like in college, he's still got tunnel vision when he's driving and can't use his vision unless he's at a standstill. Fultz isn't exactly the same and he does make nice reads a lot, it's just that he really doesn't look like your typical playmaking PG overall, and I would expect something more like solid combo guard passing from him.)
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV 

Post#1738 » by Negrodamus » Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:22 pm

HotelVitale wrote:
Negrodamus wrote: I actually think Fultz's passing is elite and his scoring is pretty good. Watching some of his games last night, he was whipping perfect passes to his teammates and they constantly blew the opportunity. The fact that he scored with such high percentages is very promising because he took so many contested shots which might be a result of the team falling behind so much due to their inadequacies. The problem with Washington was certainly not him last year. Very similar to Simmons on LSU. While I'm definitely troubled by his indifference on defense, I do think he, and Simmons, are going to make Embiid a 25+ ppg scorer. Fultz looked like a magician on PnRs.

My pt about his %s and playing on a bad team is not the dumb cliche that he can't be great because his team lost a lot; rather it's that, if you watch the games, he took long stretches off as his team got piled on and then randomly decided it was go time, which meant that he wasn't taking those shots while carrying the burden a 1st option does, and he also often wasn't taking those shots in competitive games (with correspondingly competitive defenses).

My more general reservation about him--which I've said in like 10 posts here over the past 6 months--is that many/most of his plays and moves don't look like NBA stuff. It's not like Simmons where you look at some highlights and say, 'that'll need to look a little different in the NBA but that move will slice through NBA defenses all day long'; watching Fultz I say to myself, 'that drive won't work, a good defender will smother that move, he'll need to do something a lot more clever in the lane than that one,' etc. Sometimes he does a little jab stop step-back or side-step shot that looks like it's NBA speed, and sometimes he has a nice euro-step in transition that seems NBA-ish, but most of his plays just seem like they're not quick enough and don't have enough shake to work at the next level. (That goes for most drives as well as some pull-ups.) He definitely has some tools that could allow him to be better at the next level, but I'm very skeptical of the assumption that he'll be able to speed up his game without any problems (instantly take on Dwyane Wade's speed and dynamic-ness because he has some of the basic tools that Wade had at his age.) I just think we're looking at a solid prospect rather than a great one, and someone who's going to need to play up to his very best skill potential to be an excellent player.

(Also, re: passing: If you watch highlights you come away with the impression that he can really pass, but if you watch games you notice him more as a score-first PG who gives the ball up a lot and chills. Sort of like D Russell as a passing prospect (though I don't think they're comparable)--remember when everyone saw those couple of sweet bounce passes that DLo did at OSU and thought he was some sort of rare passing savant? Turns out that, just like in college, he's still got tunnel vision when he's driving and can't use his vision unless he's at a standstill. Fultz isn't exactly the same and he does make nice reads a lot, it's just that he really doesn't look like your typical playmaking PG overall, and I would expect something more like solid combo guard passing from him.)


I don't know, I didn't really come away from the games I've watch as him being a score-first PG. I felt like he was taking shots out of necessity because no one on his team can create. There was no offense to speak of without him. His PnR offense was the best thing they had going for them and even that requires some help from teammates making shots. He does, at times, get into the air without a plan which ends up in a turnover or putting a teammate in a rough position. Other than that, his entry passes to the post seem spot on. He makes unbelievable pocket passes in the PnR. He makes very simple drive and dish passes. Off ball, he'll catch the ball at the free throw line and make a quick pass toward the basket or an open man on the perimeter. I honestly thought that he would put up absurd assist numbers on UCLA with the same supporting group.

Like I said, his scoring was out of necessity. It was no secret that he was the best scorer on the team. So imagine at 19 years old having that onus, in the Pac-12, with little relief from the players around him. It's tough. Now imagine him mostly being the secondary ball handler to Simmons. His offense won't be nearly as forced. He'll have more open shots from anywhere on the court.

But I'm not excited about what he brings, scoring wise. I'm excited for him and Simmons to get open shots for Covington, Embiid, and whoever is the 3rd starter. He, to me, is a similar level passer as Lonzo Ball. He's just capable of scoring from anywhere within the arc.
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV 

Post#1739 » by HotelVitale » Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:12 pm

Negrodamus wrote: Like I said, his scoring was out of necessity. It was no secret that he was the best scorer on the team. So imagine at 19 years old having that onus, in the Pac-12, with little relief from the players around him. It's tough. Now imagine him mostly being the secondary ball handler to Simmons. His offense won't be nearly as forced. He'll have more open shots from anywhere on the court.
Again, this doesn't make any case that he'll be able to score at an extraordinary rate in the NBA (it's also not responding to the pt I made but I aint tryin to be petty here!). The worry with Fultz isn't like Westbrook's or Iverson back in the day, where his team can't really initiate within him so he goes nuts and uses too many possession and isn't as efficient as he might be elsewhere--it's that a) he didn't assert himself like that and was fairly passive much of the time, most likely because b) he didn't show elite abilities to create good looks at will. As I said before, much of his creation seemed like it was either things that were too slow to work in the NBA or were pretty difficult shots--and with NBA defenders who are at least 3-4 inches taller/longer and much more athletic, those shots will be even more difficult in the NBA. I still don't see anything in his game that suggests he'll create comfortably at the next level, and I hate the idea of relying on a player to be an elite shooter of long 2s and stepback 3s.

Don't get me wrong, I get the argument for him as a pn'r player and think he projects to be a good one, I just don't think it's super likely that he becomes good enough at it to be a star. It's so hard to be great at that, and watching just a few minutes of Harden or IT2 makes you see the ridiculous skill involved; there's a chance that Fultz speeds up his game, masters lightning quick reads, develops an incredible in between game with a super quick release, and plays bigs into fouls on switches. There's no reason Fultz can't develop all that--there's just no clear reason to think he will, nothing about his game right now suggests he's on his way to that.

(Also, my pt was that being on a bad team allowed him to assert himself when he felt and to not do so when he didn't feel like it--whenever he wanted to go nuts the team would give him the ball, whenever he didn't feel like it he'd just slide back into a 'I'm just running the system' role and let his team gets worked over. If you're only trying to score when you're really feeling it, it makes sense that you might shoot a higher percentage than a true workhorse type. And again I don't mean that as a dismissal of Fultz--it doesn't mean those pts and assists were BS or phony--just making the case that it often seemed like playing for a bad team without other decent scoring options might've helped his stats more than the opposite. Ball was all his whenever he wanted to go to work.)
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV 

Post#1740 » by SelfishPlayer » Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:27 pm

Fultz had a 0.666 ppp out of isolation. How is he going to be valuable as a secondary ball handler when he requires a ball screen/pick to create space for him to be a scoring threat? A secondary ball handler should be someone that can create his own space (Kyrie, Wade). Fultz is a new breed of player that is reliant upon ball screens just in the same way that guys like Tyreke Evans and Evan Turner are reliant upon middle of the floor isolation. DLo is of the same breed of player as Fultz. If you aren't constantly featuring them in order to get them into the flow of the game, then they are basically just spot up shooters that are out of the flow of the game.
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