Draft Discussion Part 3

Mjee · Post #1921 » by **Mjee** » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:15 am

Gambo heard Jackson had a promise. I think we gave him that promise. If he is available we take him

AtheJ415 · Post #1922 » by **AtheJ415** » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:16 am

I think you take Isaac b/c he has arguably the most upside in the draft and good character. Also, I don't think the simple fact that he has a similar skillset to Bender is a reason to pass on him. Bender has an ultra-elite utility player type of makeup, and thus having 2 of them on the court together is a good thing, not a bad thing.

I would embrace a frontcourt of Bender, Isaac, and Chriss, with Len and Williams as the bigs against more traditional lineups (and yes I feel like we should re-sign both unless they get crazy offers).

kennydorglas · Post #1923 » by **kennydorglas** » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:23 am

Mjeezy2006 wrote:Gambo heard Jackson had a promise. I think we gave him that promise. If he is available we take him

very weird to give him a promise and didnt even bother to bring him in for a workout
maybe its the best kept secret of all time, but this doesnt make any sense.

carey · Post #1924 » by **carey** » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:24 am

ginobiliflops wrote:How is Isaac redundant when he's a defensive force and Bender is not?

We must have been watching different Benders last season.

darealjuice · Post #1925 » by **darealjuice** » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:25 am

rsavaj wrote:
ginobiliflops wrote:How is Isaac redundant when he's a defensive force and Bender is not?

Suns can go Isaac/Chriss/Bender front line which provides for a lot of length. All guys who can knock down shots.

I think that's where my biggest worry is. On paper they should all be able to knock down shots, but it hasn't really translated yet for Bender/Chriss(still below avg 3 pt shooters), and we're gonna need 2 out of the Bender/Chriss/Isaac trio to turn into at least league-average marksmen from the arc if we have any hope of playing a Isaac/Chriss/Bender frontline IMO

Just gotta trust that they'll develop. Chriss exceeded the expectations I had for him this year and showed plenty of good development. Bender showed flashes and is still so damn young, and for what it's worth I've heard that Bender is at ASU all the time working out and doing open gym scrimmages along with the other Suns players that are in town. I've also seen him there as late as midnight on snapchat and stuff.

Villalobos · Post #1926 » by **Villalobos** » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:26 am

rsavaj wrote:
sunsbum wrote:
rsavaj wrote:
ultimate role player/multiple all-defense teams/potentially DPOY if Draymond gets banished from the league

don't listen to me I don't know anything

Bender is the ultimate role player, he can do twice as many things Isaac can. Super redundant.

I don't disagree with you regarding their redundancies. Seem like almost identical players.

IMO, outside of being tall and potentially really good defenders, they're pretty different. Bender has high BBIQ and good feel for the game, should hopefully eventually be able to facilitate well for his position. Isaac has low BBIQ and feel on the offensive end. Probably won't be able to facilitate well at his position (if he's a SF). Bender is more Kirilenko/Draymond-ish (skill type wise, not that he'll ever be as good as either), high IQ jack of all trades. Isaac is more Marvin Williams-ish. Big, good rebounder and defender with shooting potential.

Now if you believe Isaac is a PF, then yeah he's redundant on a team with two high PF picks because of position. Which is why I think Isaac is a bad fit for PHX, despite me being high on his career as a PF somewhere else.

Draymond is special (besides defense) because he has high BBIQ for a big and can facilitate really well for a big. Isaac doesn't have that at all. Maybe his coach is right that he wasn't asked to do those things and he can, but that's not something I'd want to gamble on.

JMac1 · Post #1927 » by **JMac1** » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:28 am

Mjeezy2006 wrote:Gambo heard Jackson had a promise. I think we gave him that promise. If he is available we take him

JMac1 · Post #1928 » by **JMac1** » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:29 am

kennydorglas wrote:
Mjeezy2006 wrote:Gambo heard Jackson had a promise. I think we gave him that promise. If he is available we take him

very weird to give him a promise and didnt even bother to bring him in for a workout
maybe its the best kept secret of all time, but this doesnt make any sense.

We saw him in Sac

kennydorglas · Post #1929 » by **kennydorglas** » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:34 am

JMac1 wrote:
kennydorglas wrote:
Mjeezy2006 wrote:Gambo heard Jackson had a promise. I think we gave him that promise. If he is available we take him

very weird to give him a promise and didnt even bother to bring him in for a workout
maybe its the best kept secret of all time, but this doesnt make any sense.

He saw him in Sac

Yeah, but I dont this is enough or even McD modus operandi with possible draftees.
I know we had a secret workout with Warren in 2014 and that's it.

Mjee · Post #1930 » by **Mjee** » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:37 am

After the crap season we had with "strategically resting our veterans" aka tanking, to just come away with Isaac at #4 is a complete failure (especially if JJ or Tatum are available)

thamadkant · Post #1931 » by **thamadkant** » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:39 am

kennydorglas wrote:
Mjeezy2006 wrote:Gambo heard Jackson had a promise. I think we gave him that promise. If he is available we take him

very weird to give him a promise and didnt even bother to bring him in for a workout
maybe its the best kept secret of all time, but this doesnt make any sense.

how many workouts have been leaked to those that McD actually drafted the last 3 years.

Most if not all were hush hush and not in the mainstream media's attention.

RaisingArizona · Post #1932 » by **RaisingArizona** » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:40 am

Mjeezy2006 wrote:After the crap season we had with "strategically resting our veterans" aka tanking, to just come away with Isaac at #4 is a complete failure (especially if JJ or Tatum are available)

How so?

TOO · Post #1933 » by **TOO** » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:43 am

ginobiliflops wrote:
Mjeezy2006 wrote:After the crap season we had with "strategically resting our veterans" aka tanking, to just come away with Isaac at #4 is a complete failure (especially if JJ or Tatum are available)

How so?

Because drafting a skinny guy with a questionable shot, no position, and an underwhelming feel doesn't excite anyone.

YouTube · Post #1934 » by **Kerrsed** » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:45 am

kennydorglas wrote:
JMac1 wrote:
kennydorglas wrote:
very weird to give him a promise and didnt even bother to bring him in for a workout
maybe its the best kept secret of all time, but this doesnt make any sense.

He saw him in Sac

Yeah, but I dont this is enough or even McD modus operandi with possible draftees.
I know we had a secret workout with Warren in 2014 and that's it.

IDK, just sounds like a lame answer to me. Fultz and Ball also didnt work out for us, but im sure of they were still on the board, we wouldnt hesitate to grab them. Word was that we LOVE Ball. I mean with the logic that we never worked him out, it would be weird that we would love him, right? :roll:

Just because guys didnt go through OUR draft workout, doesnt mean that we dont like them or wouldnt draft them.

kennydorglas · Post #1935 » by **kennydorglas** » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:47 am

1UPZ wrote:
kennydorglas wrote:
Mjeezy2006 wrote:Gambo heard Jackson had a promise. I think we gave him that promise. If he is available we take him

very weird to give him a promise and didnt even bother to bring him in for a workout
maybe its the best kept secret of all time, but this doesnt make any sense.

how many workouts have been leaked to those that McD actually drafted the last 3 years.

Most if not all were hush hush and not in the mainstream media's attention.

I know for sure that Warren had a secret workout with us.

darealjuice · Post #1936 » by **darealjuice** » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:49 am

kennydorglas wrote:
1UPZ wrote:
kennydorglas wrote:
very weird to give him a promise and didnt even bother to bring him in for a workout
maybe its the best kept secret of all time, but this doesnt make any sense.

how many workouts have been leaked to those that McD actually drafted the last 3 years.

Most if not all were hush hush and not in the mainstream media's attention.

I know for sure that Warren had a secret workout with us.

I don't remember hearing much about Bender or Chriss' workouts here last year outside of those spy pictures by random people lol. Everyone thought we wanted Chriss pre-draft though.

Post #1937 » by **bwgood77** » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:50 am

rsavaj wrote:
ginobiliflops wrote:How is Isaac redundant when he's a defensive force and Bender is not?

Suns can go Isaac/Chriss/Bender front line which provides for a lot of length. All guys who can knock down shots.

I think that's where my biggest worry is. On paper they should all be able to knock down shots, but it hasn't really translated yet for Bender/Chriss(still below avg 3 pt shooters), and we're gonna need 2 out of the Bender/Chriss/Isaac trio to turn into at least league-average marksmen from the arc if we have any hope of playing a Isaac/Chriss/Bender frontline IMO

Yeah, but do you trust Jackson more in that regard? Maybe Tatum but he doesn't have nearly the upside defensively. I know Jackson had the best 3 pt % in college but I am not sure I trust his shot. Isaac will be impossible to block a shot from having that length. I think Bender and Isaac are somewhat redundant but both can play the 3, if not full time, for spot minutes and Warren is there too. I think in small ball they would work, even though they are not small, but that length would be brutal against teams trying to shoot, which is the biggest problem with a team like the Warriors...they can shoot so well and they pass that you need length on them...and neither guy is slow either and run the floor well. Bender the better passer with very smart court vision, and Isaac the better defender, though Bender is no slouch there either. They are both super young and raw, but we are not going to be great overnight so they have time.

RaisingArizona · Post #1938 » by **RaisingArizona** » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:51 am

TOO wrote:
ginobiliflops wrote:
Mjeezy2006 wrote:After the crap season we had with "strategically resting our veterans" aka tanking, to just come away with Isaac at #4 is a complete failure (especially if JJ or Tatum are available)

How so?

Because drafting a skinny guy with a questionable shot, no position, and an underwhelming feel doesn't excite anyone.

NBA Comparison: Rashard Lewis/Kevin Durant
Strengths: A "tantalizing" prospect, Isaac has a rare combination of size, length, and fluidity for wing player, in many ways similar to Kevin Durant at the same age from a physical and skill standpoint; at 6’10.5” with a 9’0.5” standing reach ... He has the size to play the four (and possibly even 5) when necessary and be a presence inside once his frame fills out, but he also runs the floor like a natural wing player ... Isaac has long strides, is light on his feet, and can get up and down the floor in a hurry ... He has uncommon quickness for a player his size, which he utilizes very well when cutting off the ball to lose his man and create easy looks ... Isaac is a quick jumper and shows good vertical explosion, particularly off of two feet when he has momentum to the basket ... His length and athleticism also point towards potential as a rebounder ... He showed flashes on the glass regularly at Florida State, averaging 9.6 rebounds per 40 minutes, and should develop into an even more potent rebounder as he matures ... On the perimeter, he can be a mismatch, as his size and length give him the ability to get his shot off over just about any wing defender ... Isaac's jumper looks promising and should become even more dangerous with time and repetition ... He is not going to be a 40-plus percent shooter from three-point land right away, but he has clearly established himself as a threat from outside (1.7 made threes per 40 minutes) with the ability to make tough pull-ups and fadeaways ... Isaac is also a sound ball-handler and despite not having carte blanche at Florida State, he has shown the ability to create his own shot with a variety of moves ... His ability to pull up off the dribble is extremely intriguing ... He utilizes hesitations, crossovers and step backs with crisp footwork to blow by or separate into a jump shot ... These flashes of shot creation at his size fuel his scoring potential and drive his potential through the roof ... He does not have the most advanced feel for the game yet, but he also shows flashes as a facilitator ... As a shooter he is a bit streaky but shows good shot preparation and balance with a high release ... He has excellent slashing ability as well and does a great job attacking closeouts with long strides ... Isaac also has a quick first step and a strong rip through move that gives him good momentum when driving to the basket ... However, he is more than just a straight-line driver; he does a great job of changing speeds and directions with a variety of dribble moves, and he has excellent hip mobility ... He can also shoot over the top of smaller defenders while posting up with his size and length ... His size also helps him as a passer, as he can see over the top of most defenders; and has good vision ... The potential for Isaac as a defensive stopper is also very intriguing ... He has the tools to eventually become a player that can lock down multiple positions ... He moves laterally quite well and should become a valuable switchman off the pick and roll ... He has the agility and foot speed to contain smaller players on the perimeter but also has the size and reach to give bigger players a hard time down low ... He is not ready to play down low regularly, but he is long and agile enough to provide glimpses of rim protection when needed to play the 4 ... He is a late bloomer that was a 6’3” guard in high school and is just scratching the surface of his abilities ... Players with his combination of size, length, fluidity, and skill are extremely rare, and he will be a great fit in today’s NBA ... If he can put it all together, he will be a star ... Isaac’s overall upside is off the charts and may be higher than any player in this draft, and in the right situation he may ultimately end up the best player ...

http://www.nbadraft.net/players/jonathan-isaac

LukasBMW · Post #1939 » by **LukasBMW** » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:54 am

It makes sense for the Suns to help the Cavs or Celtics o get PG13 not only because we can get assets in the process, but also because it's our best shot at keeping him out of the West.

I'm not giving up anyone in our young core, but I'm willing to take on bad contractors for picks, ditch Brandon Knight, or trade Bledsoe for picks.

Mjee · Post #1940 » by **Mjee** » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:55 am

TOO wrote:
ginobiliflops wrote:
Mjeezy2006 wrote:After the crap season we had with "strategically resting our veterans" aka tanking, to just come away with Isaac at #4 is a complete failure (especially if JJ or Tatum are available)

How so?

Because drafting a skinny guy with a questionable shot, no position, and an underwhelming feel doesn't excite anyone.

Isaac has length but lacks strength. He is very raw offensively and lacks the ability to efficiently and consistently create a shot for himself. His first three steps with the ball in his hands are not as quick as other small forward prospects. His ball handling skills are suspect. If you switch him to defend a PF, he will get out muscled in the paint.

Who would you rather have, Jackson or Tatum?