2017 Draft Discussion Part 4: 3 Day Countdown!

[gaspar]

Not really. Check this out.

http://stats.nba.com/teams/defense/#!?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

So, the Suns defense is pretty bad is what you are saying. It does need to improve at some point. Granted to JMacs point - you don't take the lesser player to take defense. But, its just not about who the better player is this year - longer term who can possibly be great.

Right now Isaac is the lesser player on offense, and Tatum on defense. Isaac clearly has more upside though. Hopefully we pick between Jackson and Isaac though.

Um... Why? Isaac at times looks very uncomfortable with the ball in his hands, has a poor feel for the game on offense, can't dribble or pass. Having skills, work ethic and BBIQ is what gives you high upside, not long arms or jumping ability.

[wordsenuff]

I'm Tatum>Isaac. Isaac is a good player but I think a lot of people, especially here, are hyping this kid up way too much. I mean KD comparisons?!? Really? I don't think he'll be the bpa at 4. If we pick him I'll be upset but I'll have to root for him and hope I'm wrong and he becomes the player some of you say he can become.

[Kerrsed]

Quite a bold move. He must have crushed those workouts to warrant him being picked over Tatum. I'm not up-to-date on Suns media/reports but have you seen anything from the FO that points you will actually pick Isaac over Tatum or just fan speculation?

We've had 2 workouts with him and reports were that we really liked him. After our last workout with him, he shutdown all request for workouts for teams picking after #4. Some believe he has a promise.

[OrlandoDream]

So assuming Cs grab Jackson, would Suns really select Isaac over Tatum? Or maybe a darkhorse for Fox?

I dont believe that Fox is on our lists. As far as Isaac vs. Tatum, it comes down the fact that is that can Isaac step in and play small forward. So far my read is that I dont think he is going to be able to but i havent seen his workouts. With McD job on the line I think the suns need to have an impact in the draft. I really believe that Jackson is the player that we really want more then any other.

I think the Tatum/Boston talk is a smokescreen and ainge is picking Jackson. He is clearly the better player with long-term upside. He is looking to trade the pick so how much does PHX value moving up one spot?

So, the Suns defense is pretty bad is what you are saying. It does need to improve at some point. Granted to JMacs point - you don't take the lesser player to take defense. But, its just not about who the better player is this year - longer term who can possibly be great.

Right now Isaac is the lesser player on offense, and Tatum on defense. Isaac clearly has more upside though. Hopefully we pick between Jackson and Isaac though.

Um... Why? Isaac at times looks very uncomfortable with the ball in his hands, has a poor feel for the game on offense, can't dribble or pass. Having skills, work ethic and BBIQ is what gives you high upside, not long arms or jumping ability.

Jonathan Isaac is probably the most skilled dribbler for 6'10 guy entering the draft. His ability to put the ball on the floor and drive to the basket separates him from the rest of the other 6'10 PF. Think you watched the wrong games.

[Sreister]

I'm Tatum>Isaac. Isaac is a good player but I think a lot of people, especially here, are hyping this kid up way too much. I mean KD comparisons?!? Really? I don't think he'll be the bpa at 4. If we pick him I'll be upset but I'll have to root for him and hope I'm wrong and he becomes the player some of you say he can become.

I don't think I've seen an actual forum member agree with the KD comparison. I don't think of him as KD lite. I see him more of a potential Dray Green type hybrid 3/4/5 positionless Center. Maybe defensively KD, but obviously not offensively.

[wordsenuff]

The Kings are “starved” for Kansas forward Josh Jackson, according to The Vertical’s Chris Mannix. The vibe I get from chatting with league sources is there’s a distinct possibility that the Kings would look to move up ahead of Phoenix (no. 4) for Jackson, possibly using the no. 5 and no. 10 picks, but they’d need more back than just the no. 3 pick. If I were the Kings, I’d want Crowder, who is locked into a cheap deal through 2020, or Smart, who the Kings were targeting in the 2014 draft. It’s doubtful the Celtics would be willing to cough up either player, but they need to trim salary to have maximum cap space. The Kings have good reason to ask for a nice player in return.

I thought kings wanted fox

[bwgood77]

So, the Suns defense is pretty bad is what you are saying. It does need to improve at some point. Granted to JMacs point - you don't take the lesser player to take defense. But, its just not about who the better player is this year - longer term who can possibly be great.

Right now Isaac is the lesser player on offense, and Tatum on defense. Isaac clearly has more upside though. Hopefully we pick between Jackson and Isaac though.

Um... Why? Isaac at times looks very uncomfortable with the ball in his hands, has a poor feel for the game on offense, can't dribble or pass. Having skills, work ethic and BBIQ is what gives you high upside, not long arms or jumping ability.

As has been pointed out, he is a skilled defender who's advanced stats translate to likely being a more successful player than just about anyone. If you want an un-athletic iso offensive guy, I get why people like Tatum. I'm just not that big of a fan at that game. He will likely never be a plus defender and that's what I'm looking for. I think Tatum will be a fine player, but he just doesn't excite me much. Not at #4. Maybe if we were at like 7.

[bwgood77]

The Kings are “starved” for Kansas forward Josh Jackson, according to The Vertical’s Chris Mannix. The vibe I get from chatting with league sources is there’s a distinct possibility that the Kings would look to move up ahead of Phoenix (no. 4) for Jackson, possibly using the no. 5 and no. 10 picks, but they’d need more back than just the no. 3 pick. If I were the Kings, I’d want Crowder, who is locked into a cheap deal through 2020, or Smart, who the Kings were targeting in the 2014 draft. It’s doubtful the Celtics would be willing to cough up either player, but they need to trim salary to have maximum cap space. The Kings have good reason to ask for a nice player in return.

I thought kings wanted fox

They did, but not more than Jackson. They are high on both.

[WeekapaugGroove]

If the suns do land Jackson at 4 the parallels between last year and this year will be pretty crazy.

Both time Suns finish 4 in the lotto and people assume the top three are pretty set (Simmons, Ingram, Bender - - Fultz, Ball, Jackson). We debate the next group forever (Chriss, Brown, Dunn - - Tatum, Isaac, Fox). There's a bunch of talk about the suns liking one of those players (Isaac -- Chriss) But Boston picking 3 pulls a mild surprise and takes one of those guys (Brown -- Tatum) leaving the Suns with a guy we didn't think would be there (Bender - - Jackson) and with the 5th pick a PG with questionable shooting who wouldn't work out for the suns gets picked (Dunn - - Fox). Kind of funny.

[MrMiyagi]

TATUM AND ISAAC ARE IN THE SAME TIER OF ATHLETE. NEITHER ARE INSANE LEAPERS/BLAZING FAST/BRUTISHLY STRONG/ETC. WHERE IS THE ISAAC IS A GREAT ATHLETE, TATUM IS UNATHLETIC COMMENTS COMING FROM?

[bwgood77]

I'm Tatum>Isaac. Isaac is a good player but I think a lot of people, especially here, are hyping this kid up way too much. I mean KD comparisons?!? Really? I don't think he'll be the bpa at 4. If we pick him I'll be upset but I'll have to root for him and hope I'm wrong and he becomes the player some of you say he can become.

I don't think I've seen an actual forum member agree with the KD comparison. I don't think of him as KD lite. I see him more of a potential Dray Green type hybrid 3/4/5 positionless Center. Maybe defensively KD, but obviously not offensively.

I have mentioned him having similar size to KD when saying I think right now he could play the 3. He is probably more defensive ready coming into the league than KD was. DX says he can guard 1-4. He is very good at switching too. So he is basically a fairly solid 3&D guy out of the gate with very versatile D but yeah, people mention is would play like Draymond as the upside, perhaps without the passing.

[bwgood77]

TATUM AND ISAAC ARE IN THE SAME TIER OF ATHLETE. NEITHER ARE INSANE LEAPERS/BLAZING FAST/BRUTISHLY STRONG/ETC. WHERE IS THE ISAAC IS A GREAT ATHLETE, TATUM IS UNATHLETIC COMMENTS COMING FROM?

Draft Express and many various other things I read and listen to. And then of course, watching video of both of them.

Isaac on DX:

That combines to create one of the more unique defensive prospects in the draft, with the size and reach of a power forward or center, but the perimeter foot speed to switch onto guards. It's something you saw him do regularly at Florida State, where they had him switch onto, and hold his own against, point guards with a frequency that seems almost absurd for a near-6'11" prospect. He was also able to make use of those gifts to the tune of 2.2 blocks and 1.7 steals per 40 minutes, pace adjusted, showing off his ability to cover ground and the quick twitch reflexes which can make him such a versatile playmaker on that side of the court.

That places Isaac with the top block rate among small forwards in our top-100 database, while also coming in the top-five in steals.

Beyond the sheer length and athleticism to chase down blocks from the weakside or force turnovers on the perimeter, Isaac also displays impressive quick foot speed on the perimeter.

He does a good job of getting down in a stance and moving his feet, and has the length and quickness to recover and contest a shot if he elects to sag off his man on the perimeter. This gives him both the ability to pressure ball handlers with his length to try to force turnovers, but also the option to play back, cut off driving angles, and recover if he's at a quickness disadvantage.

His athleticism is a real weapon in transition, sometimes even pushing the ball himself after forcing a turnover or grabbing a defensive rebound, but more often filling a lane as he beats his man down the court. He moves well off the ball, leading to some impressive displays of athleticism as he gets a head of steam towards the rim, something he doesn't do quite as much of off the dribble because the ball still slows him down somewhat. He's also a hard worker on the offensive glass, pulling in 2.6 offensive rebounds per 40 minutes, pace adjusted, which he converts at a high rate because of how quickly he gets off the ground
- Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Jonathan-Isaac-90052/ ©DraftExpress

Tatum on DX:

Despite Tatum's size and fluidity, he's not an exceptionally explosive athlete by NBA standards, with an average first step that was further slowed down by a high and loose dribble. Tatum's skill level, footwork, and ability to change speeds helped him mitigate that, for the most part, at the college level, although even there he settled for more difficult pull-ups and floaters than you would have preferred, shots with a high degree of difficulty and a comparatively low expected value. Tatum will have to further refine his ball handling and diversify his skill set in order to consistently create efficient shots for himself at a high level in the NBA. - Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Jayson-Tatum-7249/ ©DraftExpress

As for Isaac, being that high on block rate and steal rate are huge and usually are the best indicators of having success at the NBA level.

[RaisingArizona]

TATUM AND ISAAC ARE IN THE SAME TIER OF ATHLETE. NEITHER ARE INSANE LEAPERS/BLAZING FAST/BRUTISHLY STRONG/ETC. WHERE IS THE ISAAC IS A GREAT ATHLETE, TATUM IS UNATHLETIC COMMENTS COMING FROM?

Isaac is off the chart in the measurables department with his length. He can play 3-5 and guard 1-5. To me it's not even close. I'd rather Booker lead our offensive front and have complimentary players covering up his defensive deficiencies than add more offense who will take the ball out of Booker's hands and will not improve us at all defensively.

[MrMiyagi]

Jonathan Isaac is probably the most skilled dribbler for 6'10 guy entering the draft. His ability to put the ball on the floor and drive to the basket separates him from the rest of the other 6'10 PF. Think you watched the wrong games.

Just because he's the "most skilled dribbler for a 6'10 guy" in this draft, doesn't mean he's a great ball handler. The kid can dribble past a close-out, let's not pretend he's taking people off the dribble like Durant does.

[gaspar]

I'm Tatum>Isaac. Isaac is a good player but I think a lot of people, especially here, are hyping this kid up way too much. I mean KD comparisons?!? Really? I don't think he'll be the bpa at 4. If we pick him I'll be upset but I'll have to root for him and hope I'm wrong and he becomes the player some of you say he can become.

I don't think I've seen an actual forum member agree with the KD comparison. I don't think of him as KD lite. I see him more of a potential Dray Green type hybrid 3/4/5 positionless Center. Maybe defensively KD, but obviously not offensively.

Green's passing is as important as his defense. Passing is probably Isaac's biggest weakness.

[JoRain]

I'm Tatum>Isaac. Isaac is a good player but I think a lot of people, especially here, are hyping this kid up way too much. I mean KD comparisons?!? Really? I don't think he'll be the bpa at 4. If we pick him I'll be upset but I'll have to root for him and hope I'm wrong and he becomes the player some of you say he can become.

I don't think I've seen an actual forum member agree with the KD comparison. I don't think of him as KD lite. I see him more of a potential Dray Green type hybrid 3/4/5 positionless Center. Maybe defensively KD, but obviously not offensively.

Personally I don't see that potential in him at all. Isaac might be able to switch to wings on pick' n' roll, but I don't see him able to guard 3's full time, consequently, I don't see him being able to play with Chriss and Bender together, especially considering his bad offensive game.
Also, Dray is really physical while Isaac is anything but. Isaac already struggled to guard physical players in college, so it's not gonna change when you put even stronger and more physical players against him in NBA. In addition his conditioning will be a huge issue considering his asthma which I think also prevent him from being much more physical. Also because of this I don't think his rebounding will transfer to NBA all that well. If all the things go right for him and that's saying something, I see him as PF version of Tayshaun Prince, but for me, there' s just too many if's and I don't think swinging for the fences is the right thing to do for Suns at this point. Just too big of a risk to take him at 4. He's still my pick for the bust of this draft.

[MrMiyagi]

TATUM AND ISAAC ARE IN THE SAME TIER OF ATHLETE. NEITHER ARE INSANE LEAPERS/BLAZING FAST/BRUTISHLY STRONG/ETC. WHERE IS THE ISAAC IS A GREAT ATHLETE, TATUM IS UNATHLETIC COMMENTS COMING FROM?

Isaac is off the chart in the measurables department with his length. He can play 3-5 and guard 1-5. To me it's not even close. I'd rather Booker lead our offensive front and have complimentary players covering up his defensive deficiencies than add more offense who will take the ball out of Booker's hands and will not improve us at all defensively.

Then why couldn't he shut down the "un-athletic" Jayson Tatum in the FSU-Duke match-up? Hell, I'd argue that Tatum had better defense against Isaac than Isaac did against Tatum.

Here are some clips from the matchup, but I'd recommend watching that full game again:
http://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/nba-draft-what-we-learned-from-jonathan-isaac-vs-jayson-tatum-matchup/

[JMac1]

So assuming Cs grab Jackson, would Suns really select Isaac over Tatum? Or maybe a darkhorse for Fox?

I dont believe that Fox is on our lists. As far as Isaac vs. Tatum, it comes down the fact that is that can Isaac step in and play small forward. So far my read is that I dont think he is going to be able to but i havent seen his workouts. With McD job on the line I think the suns need to have an impact in the draft. I really believe that Jackson is the player that we really want more then any other.

I think the Tatum/Boston talk is a smokescreen and ainge is picking Jackson. He is clearly the better player with long-term upside. He is looking to trade the pick so how much does PHX value moving up one spot?

Right now Isaac is the lesser player on offense, and Tatum on defense. Isaac clearly has more upside though. Hopefully we pick between Jackson and Isaac though.

Um... Why? Isaac at times looks very uncomfortable with the ball in his hands, has a poor feel for the game on offense, can't dribble or pass. Having skills, work ethic and BBIQ is what gives you high upside, not long arms or jumping ability.

Jonathan Isaac is probably the most skilled dribbler for 6'10 guy entering the draft. His ability to put the ball on the floor and drive to the basket separates him from the rest of the other 6'10 PF. Think you watched the wrong games.

Please tell me which tape to watch. I have never seen him drive other than splitting the two Miami guys; and as far as his dribbling. I saw him dribble up court causally without being hounded by anyone a few times, he'll, I could do that and I can't dribble with my left hand.

He has two dribbles at best, the he pulls up. When going to the hoop, it's two dribble and two long strides to get there. He has no handles.

[JoRain]

Jonathan Isaac is probably the most skilled dribbler for 6'10 guy entering the draft. His ability to put the ball on the floor and drive to the basket separates him from the rest of the other 6'10 PF. Think you watched the wrong games.

Just because he's the "most skilled dribbler for a 6'10 guy" in this draft, doesn't mean he's a great ball handler. The kid can dribble past a close-out, let's not pretend he's taking people off the dribble like Durant does.

This. add his tendency to panic whenever D is on him which causes Isaac to throw up bad shots or turn the ball over outright and his dribbling ability doesn't seem that great anymore.

[Biff]

Booker/Josh Jackson is a nice wing duo

Jackson/Chriss/Bender is a nice frontcourt

Ulis/Booker/Jackson/Chriss/Bender is a solid young core

My only problem with Jackson Chriss and Bender frontcourt is we'd be the worst rebounding team in the league. Chriss is the best rebounder of those 3 and he's not even close to being a good rebounder. Isaac is at least a good rebounder and could project as a 10rpg kind of guy. None of those 3 are going to average more than 7 per game. So who is going to rebound the ball? Booker isn't a good rebounder either so we can't really expect to have a rebound by committee strategy.