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Discuss Ernie Grunfeld's GM skills here (Part 2)

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Re: RE: Re: Discuss Ernie Grunfeld's GM skills here (Part 2) 

Post#1001 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Thu Jun 1, 2017 4:49 pm

closg00 wrote:
Washington GM Ernie Grunfeld has shown he can put together that kind of team — he just can't build anything approaching a title contender, as that ridiculous Mahinmi contract proves.

For the Wizards to take the next step, they need a new general manager and a new mindset from ownership. Otherwise, this team will spend John Wall's prime teasing the fans on an annual basis.


http://www.foxsports.com/nba/gallery/washington-wizards-offseason-free-agency-trades-2017-needs-051517

National sports writers have a clue

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Re: Discuss Ernie Grunfeld's GM skills here (Part 2) 

Post#1002 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Fri Jun 2, 2017 11:17 pm

Meliorus wrote:
Dat2U wrote:
nate33 wrote:Bojan is a decent player. He's a terrible defender though, so a diligent team with time to game plan can work to get him into a switch where he has to defend in space. But offensively, he's pretty solid. I can see a team in need of offensive firepower on the second unit, going after a guy like Bojan. Indeed, if we didn't already have Porter and Oubre at SF, I could see us going after him as a second unit scorer making something less than the full MLE. But the fact is, we do have Porter and Oubre. Maybe we should shop for offensive firepower on a second unit, but that offensive firepower shouldn't come in the form of a SF.


Let's see, he's a "decent player" but admittedly a "terrible defender". According to you he's also "solid" offensively. I'm not sure what all that equals but I don't know about him being decent. If we agree is defense is terrible then he probably needs to be more than solid offensively to make up for it and I don't necessarily agree he was. IMO based on his time in DC he was a gunner that ran hot or cold.

Unfortunately he was cold more often than not and when you add in his brutal defense he was pretty much unplayable a great deal of the time. The times he was hot, he was really hot and could either keep you in a game or be a key in winning it. He was also TO prone as he struggled when asked to create off the bounce. Passing was a definite weakness of his as well.

I don't think he was one of worse players in the league (like Burke, Thornton & Nicholson were) but he is not an ideal rotation player b/c unless he made shots, he killed you with his TOs and piss poor defense. In retrospect he was basically a 6-8 version of Juan Dixon, a 'break glass in case of emergency' type of guy. If he makes his first shot, play him. If he misses, sit him.

It seems rather silly to keep him considering our other roster issues and limited budget but of course building the right type or roster isn't Ernie' s first priority, it's about cleaning up his own messes and validating previous moves. He spent a 1st for the guy so keeping him becomes a big priority to Ernie.


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Hot and cold = average offense. Terrible defender = bad defense. Putting it together we have a "decent" player. And his RPM numbers were completely stable the entire season, in Brooklyn and in DC. Eye test is awful. Impact numbers awful. Box-score numbers are frequently empty. The only thing that supports him being good is the association of a 1st round pick to his name.

I think this is a player who should be paying money to play in the NBA, not the other way around. Why not get a player who is cheaper, monumentally better on defense, just as good or better on offense, and younger. Most importantly, a player who makes their team better when they're on the court (or even just a net zero). There are at least 30 of these players available in free agency.


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Re: Discuss Ernie Grunfeld's GM skills here (Part 2) 

Post#1003 » by closg00 » Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:31 pm

Gone but not forgotten, "we" are still paying Martell Webster for the next two years, $833,000...and Ted is quietly going to give him an extension.

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/washington-wizards-team-salary/
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Re: Discuss Ernie Grunfeld's GM skills here (Part 2) 

Post#1004 » by montestewart » Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:04 pm

closg00 wrote:Gone but not forgotten, "we" are still paying Martell Webster for the next two years, $833,000...and Ted is quietly going to give him an extension.

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/washington-wizards-team-salary/

What's Webster up to? He seemed like a nice guy, and also seemed like someone who might end up in broadcasting. Odd enough to be interesting but not so much so that he couldn't maintain a narrative.
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Re: Discuss Ernie Grunfeld's GM skills here (Part 2) 

Post#1005 » by closg00 » Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:35 pm

closg00 wrote:Gone but not forgotten, "we" are still paying Martell Webster for the next two years, $833,000...and Ted is quietly going to give him an extension.

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/washington-wizards-team-salary/


....an extension to Ernie :P
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Re: Discuss Ernie Grunfeld's GM skills here (Part 2) 

Post#1007 » by queridiculo » Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:01 pm



The Post coverage of the Wizards in a nutshell

Barring a stunning move this summer, the Wizards likely will return the same core. Sure, this group has yet to peak...


Alrighty then, let's ignore that Grunfeld steered this team down a path that has basically left them with no avenue for improvement.
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Re: Discuss Ernie Grunfeld's GM skills here (Part 2) 

Post#1008 » by gambitx777 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:14 pm

I think that there are ways to get us out of this cap strap and get us younger and a bit better for less money, but i don't think people will like them. There are hard choices to make and IDK if EG has the balls to do the potentially painful things he would have to do to get us out of his messes and make us actually better ( maybe not by much but anything is better).
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Re: Discuss Ernie Grunfeld's GM skills here (Part 2) 

Post#1009 » by Meliorus » Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:24 pm

queridiculo wrote:


The Post coverage of the Wizards in a nutshell

Barring a stunning move this summer, the Wizards likely will return the same core. Sure, this group has yet to peak...


Alrighty then, let's ignore that Grunfeld steered this team down a path that has basically left them with no avenue for improvement.


The Post dedicated an entire article to Greivis Vasquez and his interest for the Wizards, a guy who was cut from the Nets this past season. The way the article was framed it would seem like the Wizards and Vasquez are a match made in heaven.
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Re: Discuss Ernie Grunfeld's GM skills here (Part 2) 

Post#1010 » by NatP4 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:29 pm

Meliorus wrote:
queridiculo wrote:


The Post coverage of the Wizards in a nutshell

Barring a stunning move this summer, the Wizards likely will return the same core. Sure, this group has yet to peak...


Alrighty then, let's ignore that Grunfeld steered this team down a path that has basically left them with no avenue for improvement.


The Post dedicated an entire article to Greivis Vasquez and his interest for the Wizards, a guy who was cut from the Nets this past season. The way the article was framed it would seem like the Wizards and Vasquez are a match made in heaven.



That's depressing lol
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Re: Discuss Ernie Grunfeld's GM skills here (Part 2) 

Post#1011 » by Dat2U » Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:56 pm

Meliorus wrote:
queridiculo wrote:


The Post coverage of the Wizards in a nutshell

Barring a stunning move this summer, the Wizards likely will return the same core. Sure, this group has yet to peak...


Alrighty then, let's ignore that Grunfeld steered this team down a path that has basically left them with no avenue for improvement.


The Post dedicated an entire article to Greivis Vasquez and his interest for the Wizards, a guy who was cut from the Nets this past season. The way the article was framed it would seem like the Wizards and Vasquez are a match made in heaven.


Yep its embarrassing to see DC media fawn over a guy like Vasquez who would be lucky to be on an NBA roster next year. It was even sadder to see the number of Wizards fans on twitter & other social medias who could barely contain their excitement about a potential Vasquez acquisition.
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Re: Discuss Ernie Grunfeld's GM skills here (Part 2) 

Post#1012 » by Meliorus » Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:00 pm

Dat2U wrote:
Meliorus wrote:
queridiculo wrote:
The Post coverage of the Wizards in a nutshell



Alrighty then, let's ignore that Grunfeld steered this team down a path that has basically left them with no avenue for improvement.


The Post dedicated an entire article to Greivis Vasquez and his interest for the Wizards, a guy who was cut from the Nets this past season. The way the article was framed it would seem like the Wizards and Vasquez are a match made in heaven.


Yep its embarrassing to see DC media fawn over a guy like Vasquez who would be lucky to be on an NBA roster next year. It was even sadder to see the number of Wizards fans on twitter & other social medias who could barely contain their excitement about a potential Vasquez acquisition.


Let me talk you into why Vasquez is the backup point guard you've all been waiting for... :lol:
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Re: Discuss Ernie Grunfeld's GM skills here (Part 2) 

Post#1013 » by BigA » Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:09 pm

Meliorus wrote:The Post dedicated an entire article to Greivis Vasquez and his interest for the Wizards, a guy who was cut from the Nets this past season. The way the article was framed it would seem like the Wizards and Vasquez are a match made in heaven.

It would be a grievous error.
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Re: Discuss Ernie Grunfeld's GM skills here (Part 2) 

Post#1014 » by montestewart » Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:35 pm

BigA wrote:
Meliorus wrote:The Post dedicated an entire article to Greivis Vasquez and his interest for the Wizards, a guy who was cut from the Nets this past season. The way the article was framed it would seem like the Wizards and Vasquez are a match made in heaven.

It would be a grievous error.

Nicknames:
Cardio Vasquez
Vasqueez Whiz
Vasquez da Slamma
The Rockville Pike
Quez Passa
The UM Twerp
Greivis Christ
The Caracas Maraca
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Re: Discuss Ernie Grunfeld's GM skills here (Part 2) 

Post#1015 » by payitforward » Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:40 am

gambitx777 wrote:I think that there are ways to get us out of this cap strap and get us younger and a bit better for less money, but i don't think people will like them. There are hard choices to make and IDK if EG has the balls to do the potentially painful things he would have to do to get us out of his messes and make us actually better ( maybe not by much but anything is better).

You keep saying that, & you keep being wrong. Earlier today, or yesterday, you had us getting cap room by renouncing Bogdanovic!

Still, in a sense your are right. There's a way to get us under the cap & younger -- though definitely not better:

1. Let Otto walk for nothing.
2. Pick up Sheldon Mac's option.
3. Buy 4 more R2 picks this year to go w/ our #52.
4. Pick & keep all 5 R2 guys.

There you go, we're under the cap. Not by much, mind you, yet still.... But you might mean something more like:

1. Let Otto walk for nothing.
2. Pick up Sheldon Mac's option.
3. Pick someone @ #52, & sign him.
4. Sign Bogdanovic using Bird rights -- lets say for $5m ??
5. Use the MLE to sign a player.
6. Hmmm. That's it. The MLE guy took us over the cap. We can't add anyone -- & we only have 13 players, which is a problem since the minimum as of the coming season is 14 players. There must be a way to solve this problem: perhaps you are allowed to add a veteran minimum player. Or...?

Ah, no. Whew -- we can pick up Ochefu's option as well. We've made it to 14. But... this path doesn't get us younger, & it sure doesn't get us better either.

But, hey, these are just rules; I'm sure we'll hear how we can do it w/o obeying the rules!
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Re: Discuss Ernie Grunfeld's GM skills here (Part 2) 

Post#1016 » by gambitx777 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:38 am

payitforward wrote:
gambitx777 wrote:I think that there are ways to get us out of this cap strap and get us younger and a bit better for less money, but i don't think people will like them. There are hard choices to make and IDK if EG has the balls to do the potentially painful things he would have to do to get us out of his messes and make us actually better ( maybe not by much but anything is better).

You keep saying that, & you keep being wrong. Earlier today, or yesterday, you had us getting cap room by renouncing Bogdanovic!

Still, in a sense your are right. There's a way to get us under the cap & younger -- though definitely not better:

1. Let Otto walk for nothing.
2. Pick up Sheldon Mac's option.
3. Buy 4 more R2 picks this year to go w/ our #52.
4. Pick & keep all 5 R2 guys.

There you go, we're under the cap. Not by much, mind you, yet still.... But you might mean something more like:

1. Let Otto walk for nothing.
2. Pick up Sheldon Mac's option.
3. Pick someone @ #52, & sign him.
4. Sign Bogdanovic using Bird rights -- lets say for $5m ??
5. Use the MLE to sign a player.
6. Hmmm. That's it. The MLE guy took us over the cap. We can't add anyone -- & we only have 13 players, which is a problem since the minimum as of the coming season is 14 players. There must be a way to solve this problem: perhaps you are allowed to add a veteran minimum player. Or...?

Ah, no. Whew -- we can pick up Ochefu's option as well. We've made it to 14. But... this path doesn't get us younger, & it sure doesn't get us better either.

But, hey, these are just rules; I'm sure we'll hear how we can do it w/o obeying the rules!

Well piff if we let otto walk that would give up about what 13 mill in cap room ? yeah bogz would give us 7. No one is suggesting we let otto walk, and we all expect to keel McCellan all ready and yes we should buy some seconds. But the last time I checked it was perfectly allowed to tie a pick to mahinmi to move him? Painful yes does it get us cap relief absolutely (depending on the deal). Last time I checked it was allowed to trade gortat? Last time I checked it wa allowed to denounce bogz, last time I checked it wa allowed to trade smith? yeah all that is in the rules Yes it hurts to do those things but don'e right would get us out of the cap situation you say is hopeless. All with in the confines of the rules.
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Re: Discuss Ernie Grunfeld's GM skills here (Part 2) 

Post#1017 » by BigA » Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:38 am

gambitx777 wrote:But the last time I checked it was perfectly allowed to tie a pick to mahinmi to move him? Painful yes does it get us cap relief absolutely (depending on the deal). Last time I checked it was allowed to trade gortat? Last time I checked it wa allowed to denounce bogz, last time I checked it wa allowed to trade smith? yeah all that is in the rules Yes it hurts to do those things but don'e right would get us out of the cap situation you say is hopeless. All with in the confines of the rules.

So, let's talk about moving Mahinmi with pick(s) for some sort of cap relief. Sure it's allowed, but is it a realistic possibility?

Is Mahinmi moveable for cap space or useful players right now with any number of picks attached? Say the Wizards' 2018 1st and 2nd and 2020 1st?

Is there a team that could absorb Mahinmi directly into their cap space (Philly needs another injured center)? Is there a team that could send back 2018 expirings (this would not give the Wizards any breathing room this off season)? Is there a team that could/would send useful players back? Or would you have to take back contracts that are just as bad or worse?

Also discussed elsewhere, Gortat is more moveable. But then you'd need a good backup center who will cost almost as much as Gortat unless you think you can depend on Mahinmi for 35+ minutes a night.
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Re: Discuss Ernie Grunfeld's GM skills here (Part 2) 

Post#1018 » by montestewart » Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:01 pm

BigA wrote:
gambitx777 wrote:But the last time I checked it was perfectly allowed to tie a pick to mahinmi to move him? Painful yes does it get us cap relief absolutely (depending on the deal). Last time I checked it was allowed to trade gortat? Last time I checked it wa allowed to denounce bogz, last time I checked it wa allowed to trade smith? yeah all that is in the rules Yes it hurts to do those things but don'e right would get us out of the cap situation you say is hopeless. All with in the confines of the rules.

So, let's talk about moving Mahinmi with pick(s) for some sort of cap relief. Sure it's allowed, but is it a realistic possibility?

Is Mahinmi moveable for cap space or useful players right now with any number of picks attached? Say the Wizards' 2018 1st and 2nd and 2020 1st?

Is there a team that could absorb Mahinmi directly into their cap space (Philly needs another injured center)? Is there a team that could send back 2018 expirings (this would not give the Wizards any breathing room this off season)? Is there a team that could/would send useful players back? Or would you have to take back contracts that are just as bad or worse?

Also discussed elsewhere, Gortat is more moveable. But then you'd need a good backup center who will cost almost as much as Gortat unless you think you can depend on Mahinmi for 35+ minutes a night.

I can't see how we discuss moving Mahinmi with a pick without fully acknowledging the disaster of the 2016 FA signings, overpaying for three front court backups and having to surrender 1st round picks to move two of them within a year. That fits neatly on the list with the Miller trade and the 2011 draft, and coupled with the trades for Gortat and Morris, it shows that not only do Terd n Ernie not value 2nd round picks, they don't even seem to recognize the value of 1st round picks.
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Re: Discuss Ernie Grunfeld's GM skills here (Part 2) 

Post#1019 » by BigA » Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:11 pm

montestewart wrote:
BigA wrote:
gambitx777 wrote:But the last time I checked it was perfectly allowed to tie a pick to mahinmi to move him? Painful yes does it get us cap relief absolutely (depending on the deal). Last time I checked it was allowed to trade gortat? Last time I checked it wa allowed to denounce bogz, last time I checked it wa allowed to trade smith? yeah all that is in the rules Yes it hurts to do those things but don'e right would get us out of the cap situation you say is hopeless. All with in the confines of the rules.

So, let's talk about moving Mahinmi with pick(s) for some sort of cap relief. Sure it's allowed, but is it a realistic possibility?

Is Mahinmi moveable for cap space or useful players right now with any number of picks attached? Say the Wizards' 2018 1st and 2nd and 2020 1st?

Is there a team that could absorb Mahinmi directly into their cap space (Philly needs another injured center)? Is there a team that could send back 2018 expirings (this would not give the Wizards any breathing room this off season)? Is there a team that could/would send useful players back? Or would you have to take back contracts that are just as bad or worse?

Also discussed elsewhere, Gortat is more moveable. But then you'd need a good backup center who will cost almost as much as Gortat unless you think you can depend on Mahinmi for 35+ minutes a night.

I can't see how we discuss moving Mahinmi with a pick without fully acknowledging the disaster of the 2016 FA signings, overpaying for three front court backups and having to surrender 1st round picks to move two of them within a year. That fits neatly on the list with the Miller trade and the 2011 draft, and coupled with the trades for Gortat and Morris, it shows that not only do Terd n Ernie not value 2nd round picks, they don't even seem to recognize the value of 1st round picks.

Right, 2016 was Ernie's epic FA fail, just as Foye/Miller was his epic trade fail and 2011 was his epic draft fail.

The short version of my question is if Ted fired Ernie tomorrow and they wanted to cut their losses on Mahinmi would it even be possible? Would anyone take him even with 2-3 picks attached?
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Re: Discuss Ernie Grunfeld's GM skills here (Part 2) 

Post#1020 » by montestewart » Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:20 pm

BigA wrote:
montestewart wrote:
BigA wrote:So, let's talk about moving Mahinmi with pick(s) for some sort of cap relief. Sure it's allowed, but is it a realistic possibility?

Is Mahinmi moveable for cap space or useful players right now with any number of picks attached? Say the Wizards' 2018 1st and 2nd and 2020 1st?

Is there a team that could absorb Mahinmi directly into their cap space (Philly needs another injured center)? Is there a team that could send back 2018 expirings (this would not give the Wizards any breathing room this off season)? Is there a team that could/would send useful players back? Or would you have to take back contracts that are just as bad or worse?

Also discussed elsewhere, Gortat is more moveable. But then you'd need a good backup center who will cost almost as much as Gortat unless you think you can depend on Mahinmi for 35+ minutes a night.

I can't see how we discuss moving Mahinmi with a pick without fully acknowledging the disaster of the 2016 FA signings, overpaying for three front court backups and having to surrender 1st round picks to move two of them within a year. That fits neatly on the list with the Miller trade and the 2011 draft, and coupled with the trades for Gortat and Morris, it shows that not only do Terd n Ernie not value 2nd round picks, they don't even seem to recognize the value of 1st round picks.

Right, 2016 was Ernie's epic FA fail, just as Foye/Miller was his epic trade fail and 2011 was his epic draft fail.

The short version of my question is if Ted fired Ernie tomorrow and they wanted to cut their losses on Mahinmi would it even be possible? Would anyone take him even with 2-3 picks attached?

It's a good question, but I just can't see continuing to trade away the future when it doesn't drastically improve the present. Mahinmi looked OK when he wasn't injured. Maybe he should have taken the entire year off, and maybe if he comes back in the fall and can put together an unbroken string of uninjured play, he might be moved for less near the deadline. Or maybe the best hope is he has to retire due to injury and the Wizards get some sort of exception.

But trading a bunch of picks to move Mahinmi (after trading a pick to move Nicholson) seems less like cutting losses and more like paying a crap load to make an embarrassment go away. Maybe if someone offers up a post-Mahinmi scenario featuring feasible improvement sufficient offset the loss of picks/assets, I might think otherwise. Wizards brain trust seems more concerned with saving money and protecting Terd ego and GM EGgo.

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