official Melo trade speculation - thread 2

[Floozenheimen]

KT put it best

If PJax got fired tmrw and the next GM literally did nothing, he would of done a better job than PJax.

- no bad contracts handed out
- no trading for bad contracts
- we still get another lottery pick

If PJax is rebuilding he'll accomplish #3 without needing to do 1&2.

Let's see if he does it

If it were that simple, I'd say fire Phil yesterday, but the 8,000,000 lb gorilla in the room, James Dolan, can't help himself. If a weak or less well known GM were to take over after Phil, say tomorrow, there is ZERO doubt in my mind that Frank would be traded along with picks to another team in the hopes of puzzling together a playoff team. KP might be traded too, for pennies on the dollar for another aging vet, because playoffs, not championship, just playoffs and big flashy names to put on a billboard outside the garden.

Phil is a flawed executive, but he has done what no other has done before him, which is to keep James Dolan completely out of the decision making process. That alone is worth it's weight in gold in my humble opinion. If you find me a well respected GM who will have Phil's autonomy, sign me up. I don't see ANYONE fitting that bill unfortunately. We're between a rock and a hard place as a Knicks fans, and Phil is the obvious lesser of two evils and it ain't even close as far as I'm concerned.

[VirginiaKnickFan]

If Phil is fired and the next gm goes win now mode y'all going to be sick.

and I've seen that mills or houston will probably replace him. And you know they don't have the spine to stand up to Dolan. So if he gets involved you know building through the draft stops here.

More than likely. Any new GM will typically want to show wins as soon as possible.

[Sark]

win scores are nice but in the end you have to win

if his win score translated into wins , it would matter , but as it is love has never been on a team that won more than 40 games unless lebron was on the roster alongside him

something carmelo was able to do in each of his 1st 10 seasons

Teammates matter too. Isn't that why Melo could make the playoffs his first 10 years but miss them the last 4?

last year's team was easily talented enough to make the playoffs and before jackson enforced the triangle they were over .500 and well on their way .

love is not the level of player that should be the focus of a playoff team

if you go by ws48 david lee is a better player than carmelo

advanced stats have their merits but when used without context they are meaningless

We weren't really a playoff team at the start of the year, even though we started off 14-10. We had a negative point differential at that point. That means that our record was better than it should have been, triangle or not. We only were able to beat bad teams at home, and got blown out on the road. Teams like that don't keep it up for 82 games.

[newyorker4ever]

I'm really stunned how disrespectful most of you are with our best player in the last 6 years. wow.

KP is next... then frank

people call us "Melo fans" because we actually appreciate our best player. i think we all know who's the real Knicks fans here

This coming from someone who spent 20 pages in the draft thread shytting all over the Knicks for choosing Frank over DSJ in the draft. I haven't heard that much crying after spending 12 hours at a day care center.

[Capn'O]

Dolan most certainly did take issue with Walsh when he failed to land LeBron and then balked at the terms of the subsequent Melo trade. It's why he did not survive here despite his long pedigree of success building teams in a piecemeal fashion.



I suspect Phil agreed to try to make it work with Carmelo when he took the job. Not that Dolan forced him but that it was a matter they agreed on. Phil probably felt he could mold Melo or trade him later. That would have been a prerequisite for any exec. Carmelo was the team's cash cow and had we signed big free agents around him there was still a chance to put together a strong team. Keep in mind that for all of his autonomy, he barely shook up the front office AT ALL. Only the coaching ranks.

We're in a new phase now, which involves moving on from Carmelo completely as we collect youth. Put another executive in that position and say "GO" and I'm game. But I doubt Dolan would allow it. Part of Phil being here is he carries a certain amount of celebrity on his own which retains attention, and in turn money, to the team. He's Dolan's shield and the team's lightning rod. It's also why we're considering retaining Derrick Rose even though he's a guy who so obviously contrasts with the style of Phil or Hornacek as a coach. And he's clearly not an impactful player anymore.

Dolan's a media guy first and a basketball guy 392nd. The drama is a feature of this team, not a bug. Without these guys, the rebuilding project becomes an exciting team for the die hards but garners little attention in the national media until they start accomplishing something. And that's a Dolan no-no.

[Crunchknicks1]

Lol DSj going to be Rose. Frank will be a joe Johnson type

[nedleeds]

If we buyout Melo people going to blame KP for losses. I'm calling it right now.[/b]

If we don't resign Rose and trade Melo for nothing but matching salary no Knicks fans are blaming anyone for losses, we're hoping for losses. We have our pick in a great draft. In fact a real Knick fan should be hoping we trade Melo for no salary past 2018. Sign none of these turd middle road go nowhere players like Jrue Holiday or George Hill. Keep our cheap young guys and play them. Keep O'Quinn and Lee until the deadline and try to squeeze a playoff team for a pick, in the meanwhile they are good locker room guys and won't take shots away from our going on 22 year old franchise player. Start Frank. Let him play. Lose. Get Luca.

[Crunchknicks1]

Yup I'm full tank mode. We need 1st pick and a top 20 pick on top of it

[Crunchknicks1]

We need two young players Michael Porter and a 2 for the future. Then sign vets to finish it off and before you know it we will not be the team people laugh at

[Esq-4]

I don't know what to think. I'm against a buy out, but at this point why would anyone trade for him? They might as well wait to see if this blows up. Definitely no reason to give up an asset for him.

If he really wants to stay close to home, maybe BK is a realistic place to look to move him? They say yes for name value, we say yes to get him off the team, he says yes to stay in NY.

In his window I see 4 teams with a legit shot GST, wherever LBJ is, BOS and may SAS. Unless he hooked up with one of those teams, it makes sense he'd want to stay here - but this is a 2 team area.

It's beyond team Phil and team Melo. Both need to be gone.

I also wouldn't give Melo more than half his salary in a buy out. You telling me he was go to opt in if things went well and or he was traded elsewhere.

I really think you play him unless he becomes a malcontent and detriment. If he plays good soldier to keep up a public persona fine. Let him opt in next year. He'd really only be hurting himself, which is a waste.

[DowNY]

Nets fan here.

We would take Melo off your hands with an unprotected 1st rounder attached for next year. Hell, we will even give you expiring Trevor Booker in return.
Melo gets to stay close to home atleast.

thats a good deal

trading Melo away to the Nets plus our 1st rd pick is a good deal?

[Amsterdam]

KT put it best

If PJax got fired tmrw and the next GM literally did nothing, he would of done a better job than PJax.

- no bad contracts handed out
- no trading for bad contracts
- we still get another lottery pick

If PJax is rebuilding he'll accomplish #3 without needing to do 1&2.

Let's see if he does it

If it were that simple, I'd say fire Phil yesterday, but the 8,000,000 lb gorilla in the room, James Dolan, can't help himself. If a weak or less well known GM were to take over after Phil, say tomorrow, there is ZERO doubt in my mind that Frank would be traded along with picks to another team in the hopes of puzzling together a playoff team. KP might be traded too, for pennies on the dollar for another aging vet, because playoffs, not championship, just playoffs and big flashy names to put on a billboard outside the garden.

Phil is a flawed executive, but he has done what no other has done before him, which is to keep James Dolan completely out of the decision making process. That alone is worth it's weight in gold in my humble opinion. If you find me a well respected GM who will have Phil's autonomy, sign me up. I don't see ANYONE fitting that bill unfortunately. We're between a rock and a hard place as a Knicks fans, and Phil is the obvious lesser of two evils and it ain't even close as far as I'm concerned.

Absolutely.

And guess who's lurking in the halls of MSG? Thomas and we all know how he literally emptied our draft pick bucket for years.
Donnie Walsh had no voice or overriding powers over Dolan as you eloquently expressed.

Three great picks and could have had 4 if not for Grunwald and Dolan's involvement in an arena he knows nothing about.
If not for Phil's strong backbone, the Knicks would be bird food for the rabid media, Melo's ego and KP's immaturity.

[dakomish23]

KT put it best

If PJax got fired tmrw and the next GM literally did nothing, he would of done a better job than PJax.

- no bad contracts handed out
- no trading for bad contracts
- we still get another lottery pick

If PJax is rebuilding he'll accomplish #3 without needing to do 1&2.

Let's see if he does it

If it were that simple, I'd say fire Phil yesterday, but the 8,000,000 lb gorilla in the room, James Dolan, can't help himself. If a weak or less well known GM were to take over after Phil, say tomorrow, there is ZERO doubt in my mind that Frank would be traded along with picks to another team in the hopes of puzzling together a playoff team. KP might be traded too, for pennies on the dollar for another aging vet, because playoffs, not championship, just playoffs and big flashy names to put on a billboard outside the garden.

Phil is a flawed executive, but he has done what no other has done before him, which is to keep James Dolan completely out of the decision making process. That alone is worth it's weight in gold in my humble opinion. If you find me a well respected GM who will have Phil's autonomy, sign me up. I don't see ANYONE fitting that bill unfortunately. We're between a rock and a hard place as a Knicks fans, and Phil is the obvious lesser of two evils and it ain't even close as far as I'm concerned.

Absolutely.

And guess who's lurking in the halls of MSG? Thomas and we all know how he literally emptied our draft pick bucket for years.
Donnie Walsh had no voice or overriding powers over Dolan as you eloquently expressed.

Three great picks and could have had 4 if not for Grunwald and Dolan's involvement in an arena he knows nothing about.
If not for Phil's strong backbone, the Knicks would be bird food for the rabid media, Melo's ego and KP's immaturity.

This couldn't be further from what happened

[dakomish23]

If Phil is fired and the next gm goes win now mode y'all going to be sick.

and I've seen that mills or houston will probably replace him. And you know they don't have the spine to stand up to Dolan. So if he gets involved you know building through the draft stops here.

More than likely. Any new GM will typically want to show wins as soon as possible.

Walsh didn't

[GEOLINK]

and I've seen that mills or houston will probably replace him. And you know they don't have the spine to stand up to Dolan. So if he gets involved you know building through the draft stops here.

More than likely. Any new GM will typically want to show wins as soon as possible.

Walsh didn't

How soon they forget.

[MadGrinch]

Teammates matter too. Isn't that why Melo could make the playoffs his first 10 years but miss them the last 4?

last year's team was easily talented enough to make the playoffs and before jackson enforced the triangle they were over .500 and well on their way .

love is not the level of player that should be the focus of a playoff team

if you go by ws48 david lee is a better player than carmelo

advanced stats have their merits but when used without context they are meaningless

We weren't really a playoff team at the start of the year, even though we started off 14-10. We had a negative point differential at that point. That means that our record was better than it should have been, triangle or not. We only were able to beat bad teams at home, and got blown out on the road. Teams like that don't keep it up for 82 games.

4 out of the 16 playoff teams had a negative point differential last season....including 3 out of 8 in the east...including the 5th seeded hawks .

[Greenie]

do you really believe a GM hired would be allowed to do "nothing"? He probably would have ever more of a threat to win and make the playoffs to Dolan after Phil. So that means future 1st round picks would def be on the table.

Sometimes the best move is no move.

Greenie,

Why do you want us to keep Melo? I'm curious as to what your vision is for the Knicks this upcoming year. What do you want their goal to be? Also, which moves (or lack of) do you want to see us make this off-season to support that goal? Using your plan, what would you like our projected starting lineup and rotation to look like entering the season? I'm just curious because I'm trying to understand what the end game is for Melo here AND the Knicks.

Drewkins,

Who said I want to keep him? I have been on the trade Melo bandwagon all year. Ask about me. I'm talking moves made up until now. Were you here when everything went down or nah?

[Capn'O]

More than likely. Any new GM will typically want to show wins as soon as possible.

Walsh didn't

How soon they forget.

I'll never forget this either:

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/new-york-knicks-gm-donnie-walsh-miffed-staff-passing-brandon-jennings-draft-article-1.433065

In a recent interview with SI.com, Walsh hinted that ownership wouldn't allow him to revamp the front office.

"I could have hired some amazing people," Walsh told SI.com. "But there are some things you can't ask the owner to do, and that's eat some of these (front-office and scouting department) numbers."

The original SI article is off the net but the quote remains in the NYDN article. Walsh always had oversight from Dolan and his cronies and a lot of these same guys are here, doing the legwork of the GM position. Dolan wants to keep his people and his ways. The next guy coming in after Phil will have to deal with the same **** and it will show in the approach and, in turn, the product.

Walsh was allowed to briefly recoup picks and rebuild because he sold Dolan on holding out for LeBron. We then were forced to cash in ALL of the fruits of that process for Melo when it didn't work out. I don't want to see that **** happen again. Give me Hinkie or Mike Zarren or someone of that ilk... or keep Phil.

[Sark]

last year's team was easily talented enough to make the playoffs and before jackson enforced the triangle they were over .500 and well on their way .

love is not the level of player that should be the focus of a playoff team

if you go by ws48 david lee is a better player than carmelo

advanced stats have their merits but when used without context they are meaningless

We weren't really a playoff team at the start of the year, even though we started off 14-10. We had a negative point differential at that point. That means that our record was better than it should have been, triangle or not. We only were able to beat bad teams at home, and got blown out on the road. Teams like that don't keep it up for 82 games.

4 out of the 16 playoff teams had a negative point differential last season....including 3 out of 8 in the east...including the 5th seeded hawks .

And we weren't even better than those teams.

[Greenie]

If we buyout Melo people going to blame KP for losses. I'm calling it right now.[/b]

If we don't resign Rose and trade Melo for nothing but matching salary no Knicks fans are blaming anyone for losses, we're hoping for losses. We have our pick in a great draft. In fact a real Knick fan should be hoping we trade Melo for no salary past 2018. Sign none of these turd middle road go nowhere players like Jrue Holiday or George Hill. Keep our cheap young guys and play them. Keep O'Quinn and Lee until the deadline and try to squeeze a playoff team for a pick, in the meanwhile they are good locker room guys and won't take shots away from our going on 22 year old franchise player. Start Frank. Let him play. Lose. Get Luca.

You need a tour