The Zach Lavine Problem

[DASMACKDOWN]

The thing that is funny about this league is, it doesnt take much for people to hate a deal and then love it minutes later.

I wouldnt be surprised if after one summer league game, people would be raving that we fleeced the Twolves.

You know its true.

[League Circles]

I was just listening to his radio interview from today on ESPN 1000 and he seemed to indicate that he didn't know what Lake Michigan was. That when he saw it he was confused as to whether or not it was the ocean. Most likely a flat earther.

I heard that and to me it sounded more like he was so impressed by how large the lake was and likening it to the ocean.
Are we doing this all year? Like dissect everything any one of these 19-20 year olds says? I know there's no games and people are bored, but, wow....

I had doubts that he was meaning it as you suggest, but I will choose to believe you are right until he shows me wrong. In fact I myself often refer to the Lake as the ocean with no sharks.

[bennjuiced34]

There are plenty one-dimensional (players who predominately make an impact only on one side of the floor) players in this league that I'd bet we'd love to have on this team. Harden, Kyrie, Lillard, DeAndre, Lowry, Cousins, LeBron etc. As I said above, it's a matter of how much Zach can improve on the offensive end that makes him a worth while one-dimensional player is the true question, at least for me. Is he capable of becoming such a great offensive player, where we can build a solid defensive team around him to cover his deficiencies, is a lot easier than continuing to dump, trade and draft players waiting for that perfect player who is great on both ends of the floor.

Comparing LaVine to some of those guys isn't fair though because they bring other elements of offense.

Harden, Kyrie, Lillard, LeBron, etc can all both score and playmake at an elite level.

LaVine can't do either, yet, and has shown himself to be mostly a scorer up to this point.

I like LaVine quite a bit. His upside, his work ethic, but expectations as to what he can become based on what he's shown need to be tempered.

Do I think he can become an elite scorer? Absolutely. Do I worry about his defense and whether any other parts of his offensive game develop? Yep.

Sent from my LG-H811 using Tapatalk

[MC3]

I was just listening to his radio interview from today on ESPN 1000 and he seemed to indicate that he didn't know what Lake Michigan was. That when he saw it he was confused as to whether or not it was the ocean. Most likely a flat earther.

I heard that and to me it sounded more like he was so impressed by how large the lake was and likening it to the ocean.
Are we doing this all year? Like dissect everything any one of these 19-20 year olds says? I know there's no games and people are bored, but, wow....

People are just trying to find something to grip with situation and shock from what happened. Unhappy with situation in which we currently are. So they finding not existent things to complain. Finding their scapegoats. Cause that's what people do. This is believe me nothing. We didnt had losing season record since ever. And majority of this fanbase are guys who started watching Bulls and basketball because of Rose, and later stayed because of Jimmy Butler.

[WindyCityBorn]

Anyone else get a chuckle out of how many times LaVine told us he was humble? I think truly humble people don't have to tell you that.

Yeah, I'm of the mind that NBA players are just mouthpieces for their "brands". I'm sure one of LaVine's brand team saw that Chicago liked Rose's humbleness.

I've learned that guys who say the right things at pressers aren't the guys who are doing the right things on the court.

But everything from his time in Minnesota shows that his behavior matches what he says. Dunn basically gave the same answers. Honestly I thought Lauri seems the most cocky out the three, not that it matters AT ALL.

[Shill]

I've learned that guys who say the right things at pressers aren't the guys who are doing the right things on the court.

So does that mean guys who say the wrong things at pressers do the right things on the court?


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[MC3]

But everything from his time in Minnesota shows that his behavior matches what he says. Dunn basically gave the same answers. Honestly I thought Lauri seems the most cocky out the three, not that it matters AT ALL.

Glad I wasnt only one noticing that. Kid will either be really good or bust. He looked with that confident smile and answered questions as he has no pressure to come in league and just perform.

[Mattya]

Anyone else get a chuckle out of how many times LaVine told us he was humble? I think truly humble people don't have to tell you that.

Yeah, I'm of the mind that NBA players are just mouthpieces for their "brands". I'm sure one of LaVine's brand team saw that Chicago liked Rose's humbleness.

I've learned that guys who say the right things at pressers aren't the guys who are doing the right things on the court.

But everything from his time in Minnesota shows that his behavior matches what he says. Dunn basically gave the same answers. Honestly I thought Lauri seems the most cocky out the three, not that it matters AT ALL.

I haven't watched the press conference, but LaVine used to drop the "Ya'll know me, I'm a humble dude" line a lot.

[sky4it]

With apologies, I will give you the anti-thesis on Zach Lavine.

(Er Wolves fans, the next Kobe Bryant? Be clear there no chance of that.) But those dunks just look so freaking good. Yeah so did Gerald Green's and I'd rather have Gerald Green then Zach Lavine. oh and wolf dude, you prefer Lavine to Wiggins? Preposterous.

It's my personal belief that Lavines defensive woes are simply not correctable. He has really poor lateral movement with his feet, and the long legs give him a high center of gravity. He simply got ate alive by very average guards, and was paired often with Rubio who defends pretty damn well. By contrast (Wolves dude) Wiggins doesnt play good defense because he gets outmuscled, not outhustled, hes got the skill to do it when he adds muscle which he will. He also is matched on the other teams best scoring threat that arent bigs.

But its the other stuff that concerns me as well. If the offense doesn't go through him, at times, hes seems to coast. The hustle just isnt there. I remember one play and I just wanted him gone. Against Portland the ball came off the rim and bounced to the right. Klay Thompson scurried after the ball, Lavine stood and watched. I have seem him step out of bounds with the ball several times, in key situations, down the stretch. Hes an inadequate rebounder, a poor passer, and when contested, at times he doesnt finish at the rim well. He's also a streaky shooter, and has history of slumps. Check the game stats they verify this. On offense he is not a facilitator, he doesnt see the court well and find teamates for passes. More often then not he simply looks for his own shot. In games, it was as tho someone had there foot stuck to the accelerator for stretches ( he did ok better effort), and when they let up Lavine didnt play hard. My guess is Thibs would grind it into him and it would fail. Also when Lavine has 5-6 good games in a row ( I actually can only remember about 3), he really is a complete lazy ass out on the court. I have always thought he was a headcase. As a Wolf fan, I am delighted he is gone. Now maybe they can put together a defense that works.

Keep in mind the best things one can say about Lavine. Scoring was never a problem here in Minnesota. Keeping the other team from scoring a huge number of baskets in games was. By contrast other teams had better defense so we would lose. Countless times this team lost games when they were up by double digits. But we also had Wiggins, Towns and Dieng, all who shoot the basketball really well.

And I dont think you Bulls guys are going to like him. From start to finish. My biggest concern was the Wolves might throw tons of money his way. If someone does, get prepared for sub-mediocrity.

Bulls guys, save your franchise, dont pay this guy huge dollars.

With that said, rebuilding can be an exciting time. Its just such a damn long process. Anyway good luck to the Bulls.

I just wanted you guys to have as Paul Harvey would say "the rest of the story", considering all the Wolf fan bruhah. Hoiberg is a pretty smart guy. He can probably put him in spots where he scores 25-30 points an night for several games, then you guys can trade him for a high lotto pick. Thats your best bet.

[mplsfonz23]

Yeah, I'm of the mind that NBA players are just mouthpieces for their "brands". I'm sure one of LaVine's brand team saw that Chicago liked Rose's humbleness.

I've learned that guys who say the right things at pressers aren't the guys who are doing the right things on the court.

But everything from his time in Minnesota shows that his behavior matches what he says. Dunn basically gave the same answers. Honestly I thought Lauri seems the most cocky out the three, not that it matters AT ALL.

I haven't watched the press conference, but LaVine used to drop the "Ya'll know me, I'm a humble dude" line a lot.

You guys will LOVE Zach.

I have met him on accident several times and he's always willing to talk. I have recorded him giving a shout out to my 13 year old who loves him. (Because he's cute) But he is VERY humble, never seemed cocky, and doesn't even celebrate after a vicious dunk. Look at his highlights, he always cool after the play.

True story, I was in Burlington Coat Factory on a Saturday with my grown son. It was early and only about 20 people in the whole store. I look up and ZL is standing across the isle. So I take out my phone and ask to take a pic, (my son was scared to ask him) and being old I pushed record instead. So I think the pic is over and start talking to him. Found out he was shopping for a suit for Flip's funeral. I was kind of embarrassed, and apologized for disturbing him. He said "NP man, I seen you before."
Not only was I impressed he remembered me, but here was this millionaire shopping at an outlet store.
I hated to see him go. But you have to give to get in the NBA.
I hope for ZL and KD it turns out to be a wash of a trade.
(I personally think if Zach can recover, you will get a great player. He's a gym rat.)

[Just_Bullz]

Lavine has that James Harden feel in his game but without the assist rate. He's not all about dunking the ball in transition but has the smooth 3 point stroke and silky layup moves which are very underrated in my opinion.

Think lots of people just stereotype him because he's a 2 time dunk champion. Recovery is absolute key for him, Westbrook and curry have shown that they can be 100% after a major injury thus this gives me some hope for Lavine.

He's gonna be our top scorer next season.

[jump]

A friend of mind covered high school sports in Washington a few years ago. Spoke with LaVine several times. Says he is a good kid, intelligent. Nothing stupid about him. Said he couldn't shoot very well back then. He can certainly shoot now. Dedicated good athletes improve their games. I expect his defense will improve as well.

[mplsfonz23]

With apologies, I will give you the anti-thesis on Zach Lavine.

(Er Wolves fans, the next Kobe Bryant? Be clear there no chance of that.) But those dunks just look so freaking good. Yeah so did Gerald Green's and I'd rather have Gerald Green then Zach Lavine. oh and wolf dude, you prefer Lavine to Wiggins? Preposterous.

It's my personal belief that Lavines defensive woes are simply not correctable. He has really poor lateral movement with his feet, and the long legs give him a high center of gravity. He simply got ate alive by very average guards, and was paired often with Rubio who defends pretty damn well. By contrast (Wolves dude) Wiggins doesnt play good defense because he gets outmuscled, not outhustled, hes got the skill to do it when he adds muscle which he will. He also is matched on the other teams best scoring threat that arent bigs.

But its the other stuff that concerns me as well. If the offense doesn't go through him, at times, hes seems to coast. The hustle just isnt there. I remember one play and I just wanted him gone. Against Portland the ball came off the rim and bounced to the right. Klay Thompson scurried after the ball, Lavine stood and watched. I have seem him step out of bounds with the ball several times, in key situations, down the stretch. Hes an inadequate rebounder, a poor passer, and when contested, at times he doesnt finish at the rim well. He's also a streaky shooter, and has history of slumps. Check the game stats they verify this. On offense he is not a facilitator, he doesnt see the court well and find teamates for passes. More often then not he simply looks for his own shot. In games, it was as tho someone had there foot stuck to the accelerator for stretches ( he did ok better effort), and when they let up Lavine didnt play hard. My guess is Thibs would grind it into him and it would fail. Also when Lavine has 5-6 good games in a row ( I actually can only remember about 3), he really is a complete lazy ass out on the court. I have always thought he was a headcase. As a Wolf fan, I am delighted he is gone. Now maybe they can put together a defense that works.

Keep in mind the best things one can say about Lavine. Scoring was never a problem here in Minnesota. Keeping the other team from scoring a huge number of baskets in games was. By contrast other teams had better defense so we would lose. Countless times this team lost games when they were up by double digits. But we also had Wiggins, Towns and Dieng, all who shoot the basketball really well.

And I dont think you Bulls guys are going to like him. From start to finish. My biggest concern was the Wolves might throw tons of money his way. If someone does, get prepared for sub-mediocrity.

Bulls guys, save your franchise, dont pay this guy huge dollars.

With that said, rebuilding can be an exciting time. Its just such a damn long process. Anyway good luck to the Bulls.

I just wanted you guys to have as Paul Harvey would say "the rest of the story", considering all the Wolf fan bruhah. Hoiberg is a pretty smart guy. He can probably put him in spots where he scores 25-30 points an night for several games, then you guys can trade him for a high lotto pick. Thats your best bet.

Credit blown.
You have some fair points, but it seems like you were never a fan, and will point to flaws just to make your point. How many games has he carried a dogged team by himself? Who was the man before Towns? Zack! That's who. Wish we could get rid of fake Wolves fans like you.
Chi-Town, let his play determine your opinion.

[MrFortune3]

Anyone else get a chuckle out of how many times LaVine told us he was humble? I think truly humble people don't have to tell you that.

Yeah, I'm of the mind that NBA players are just mouthpieces for their "brands". I'm sure one of LaVine's brand team saw that Chicago liked Rose's humbleness.

I've learned that guys who say the right things at pressers aren't the guys who are doing the right things on the court.

That is usually a line utilized by people who are less interested in talking and more interested in playing.
Don't think a lack of humility is anywhere in LaVine.

[sky4it]

With apologies, I will give you the anti-thesis on Zach Lavine.

(Er Wolves fans, the next Kobe Bryant? Be clear there no chance of that.) But those dunks just look so freaking good. Yeah so did Gerald Green's and I'd rather have Gerald Green then Zach Lavine. oh and wolf dude, you prefer Lavine to Wiggins? Preposterous.

It's my personal belief that Lavines defensive woes are simply not correctable. He has really poor lateral movement with his feet, and the long legs give him a high center of gravity. He simply got ate alive by very average guards, and was paired often with Rubio who defends pretty damn well. By contrast (Wolves dude) Wiggins doesnt play good defense because he gets outmuscled, not outhustled, hes got the skill to do it when he adds muscle which he will. He also is matched on the other teams best scoring threat that arent bigs.

But its the other stuff that concerns me as well. If the offense doesn't go through him, at times, hes seems to coast. The hustle just isnt there. I remember one play and I just wanted him gone. Against Portland the ball came off the rim and bounced to the right. Klay Thompson scurried after the ball, Lavine stood and watched. I have seem him step out of bounds with the ball several times, in key situations, down the stretch. Hes an inadequate rebounder, a poor passer, and when contested, at times he doesnt finish at the rim well. He's also a streaky shooter, and has history of slumps. Check the game stats they verify this. On offense he is not a facilitator, he doesnt see the court well and find teamates for passes. More often then not he simply looks for his own shot. In games, it was as tho someone had there foot stuck to the accelerator for stretches ( he did ok better effort), and when they let up Lavine didnt play hard. My guess is Thibs would grind it into him and it would fail. Also when Lavine has 5-6 good games in a row ( I actually can only remember about 3), he really is a complete lazy ass out on the court. I have always thought he was a headcase. As a Wolf fan, I am delighted he is gone. Now maybe they can put together a defense that works.

Keep in mind the best things one can say about Lavine. Scoring was never a problem here in Minnesota. Keeping the other team from scoring a huge number of baskets in games was. By contrast other teams had better defense so we would lose. Countless times this team lost games when they were up by double digits. But we also had Wiggins, Towns and Dieng, all who shoot the basketball really well.

And I dont think you Bulls guys are going to like him. From start to finish. My biggest concern was the Wolves might throw tons of money his way. If someone does, get prepared for sub-mediocrity.

Bulls guys, save your franchise, dont pay this guy huge dollars.

With that said, rebuilding can be an exciting time. Its just such a damn long process. Anyway good luck to the Bulls.

I just wanted you guys to have as Paul Harvey would say "the rest of the story", considering all the Wolf fan bruhah. Hoiberg is a pretty smart guy. He can probably put him in spots where he scores 25-30 points an night for several games, then you guys can trade him for a high lotto pick. Thats your best bet.

Credit blown.
You have some fair points, but it seems like you were never a fan, and will point to flaws just to make your point. How many games has he carried a dogged team by himself? Who was the man before Towns? Zack! That's who. Wish we could get rid of fake Wolves fans like you.
Chi-Town, let his play determine your opinion.

Come again?

In Lavines only year of playing without Towns, the Wolves won 16 games. Lavine was a rookie and he was hardly the man. I certainly dont fault Lavine in his rookie year. Thats the year Lavine cussed when he was drafted by the Wolves.

so you are incorrect, homer

[Rerisen]

And I dont think you Bulls guys are going to like him. From start to finish. My biggest concern was the Wolves might throw tons of money his way. If someone does, get prepared for sub-mediocrity.

What's more surprising is all the things you didn't like, would be things the Bulls FO would certainly not like.

Lack of hustle, incorrectable defensive instincts, me first offense.

Jimmy Butler is a coach's dream compared to that scouting report. Though certainly other Wolves fans have been a lot more positive about Zach.

[Rerisen]

Even without watching Zach extensively the type of player he's been so far suggests a certain idea.

That he's a type of player that can be useful, if you properly contrast other players around him, cover up his weaknesses. But he's probably not going to be your foundation player.

More like a somewhat one sided player, that is limited in all other areas. In the mold of an Allen Houston, Kevin Martin, or Corey Maggette.

[MrFortune3]

Even without watching Zach extensively the type of player he's been so far suggests a certain idea.

That he's a type of player that can be useful, if you properly contrast other players around him, cover up his weaknesses. But he's probably not going to be your foundation player.

More like a somewhat one sided player, that is limited in all other areas. In the mold of an Allen Houston, Kevin Martin, or Corey Maggette.

LaVine as presently constructed is probably that ace #2 that plays so well you think he could be a true #1 but he's always better as the #2 guy.

I think he will make improvements given the change in his role. He's going from being the 3rd man in the franchise trio to being the face of the franchise for at least a year or 2. Should push him to make some positive changes in his game.

I do agree you need to surround him with players who help alleviate his weaknesses.

[mplsfonz23]

With apologies, I will give you the anti-thesis on Zach Lavine.

(Er Wolves fans, the next Kobe Bryant? Be clear there no chance of that.) But those dunks just look so freaking good. Yeah so did Gerald Green's and I'd rather have Gerald Green then Zach Lavine. oh and wolf dude, you prefer Lavine to Wiggins? Preposterous.

It's my personal belief that Lavines defensive woes are simply not correctable. He has really poor lateral movement with his feet, and the long legs give him a high center of gravity. He simply got ate alive by very average guards, and was paired often with Rubio who defends pretty damn well. By contrast (Wolves dude) Wiggins doesnt play good defense because he gets outmuscled, not outhustled, hes got the skill to do it when he adds muscle which he will. He also is matched on the other teams best scoring threat that arent bigs.

But its the other stuff that concerns me as well. If the offense doesn't go through him, at times, hes seems to coast. The hustle just isnt there. I remember one play and I just wanted him gone. Against Portland the ball came off the rim and bounced to the right. Klay Thompson scurried after the ball, Lavine stood and watched. I have seem him step out of bounds with the ball several times, in key situations, down the stretch. Hes an inadequate rebounder, a poor passer, and when contested, at times he doesnt finish at the rim well. He's also a streaky shooter, and has history of slumps. Check the game stats they verify this. On offense he is not a facilitator, he doesnt see the court well and find teamates for passes. More often then not he simply looks for his own shot. In games, it was as tho someone had there foot stuck to the accelerator for stretches ( he did ok better effort), and when they let up Lavine didnt play hard. My guess is Thibs would grind it into him and it would fail. Also when Lavine has 5-6 good games in a row ( I actually can only remember about 3), he really is a complete lazy ass out on the court. I have always thought he was a headcase. As a Wolf fan, I am delighted he is gone. Now maybe they can put together a defense that works.

Keep in mind the best things one can say about Lavine. Scoring was never a problem here in Minnesota. Keeping the other team from scoring a huge number of baskets in games was. By contrast other teams had better defense so we would lose. Countless times this team lost games when they were up by double digits. But we also had Wiggins, Towns and Dieng, all who shoot the basketball really well.

And I dont think you Bulls guys are going to like him. From start to finish. My biggest concern was the Wolves might throw tons of money his way. If someone does, get prepared for sub-mediocrity.

Bulls guys, save your franchise, dont pay this guy huge dollars.

With that said, rebuilding can be an exciting time. Its just such a damn long process. Anyway good luck to the Bulls.

I just wanted you guys to have as Paul Harvey would say "the rest of the story", considering all the Wolf fan bruhah. Hoiberg is a pretty smart guy. He can probably put him in spots where he scores 25-30 points an night for several games, then you guys can trade him for a high lotto pick. Thats your best bet.

Credit blown.
You have some fair points, but it seems like you were never a fan, and will point to flaws just to make your point. How many games has he carried a dogged team by himself? Who was the man before Towns? Zack! That's who. Wish we could get rid of fake Wolves fans like you.
Chi-Town, let his play determine your opinion.

Come again?

In Lavines only year of playing without Towns, the Wolves won 16 games. Lavine was a rookie and he was hardly the man. I certainly dont fault Lavine in his rookie year. Thats the year Lavine cussed when he was drafted by the Wolves.

so you are incorrect, homer

Not.
Lavine was thrown into a starting PG role that he'd never trained for, so he was going to suck. Wiggins was supposed to be the man, but he couldn't. So when he finally went to SG he started to blow up. But by then the season was over, and everyone BUT him had checked out.
But I was referring to you calling him a "head case." can you please find ANY proof of that?

[sky4it]

Even without watching Zach extensively the type of player he's been so far suggests a certain idea.

That he's a type of player that can be useful, if you properly contrast other players around him, cover up his weaknesses. But he's probably not going to be your foundation player.

More like a somewhat one sided player, that is limited in all other areas. In the mold of an Allen Houston, Kevin Martin, or Corey Maggette.

I think thats a fair assessment. A Kevin Martin with a high rising jump shot is the perfect comp.

The problem will be to get him to accept that role, and cut down on boneheaded mistakes. Anyhow, he certainly should be capable of that, but sometimes, I wondered.