RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #6

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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #6 

Post#21 » by Dr Spaceman » Thu Jun 29, 2017 6:50 pm

wojoaderge wrote:1 - Wilt
2 - Bird


Must I recall my arguments? Quite a few others didn't on the last thread, just sayin'

Magic was a below average defender at best, just like Bird

Bird was not close to a below average defender. He had outstanding instincts, some of the best hands ever, and for a wing his defensive rebounding is off the charts. He played out of position for a lot of his prime and had a lot of trouble in straight man D against athletic 3s, but in the modern game he'd be a 4 and a damn good defensive one at that.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #6 

Post#22 » by Gibson22 » Thu Jun 29, 2017 6:53 pm

I don't know why I have the fear that in past threads someone decided to vote for Lebron's rival, and somebody will vote for whoever can contend the plalce with wilt. I hope I'm wrong
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #6 

Post#23 » by Dr Spaceman » Thu Jun 29, 2017 6:55 pm

I hope it's okay if I can jump in at this point. Garnett is getting traction and he deserves it. If people are having him more than a couple of spots behind Duncan, I think there's a problem. Dirk is also a guy I'll make a case for, I have him over Bird and probably Magic. I don't see Wilt being a candidate for me for several more spots. He's way too problematic and the best we saw from him certainly isn't better than what we saw from Shaq, who doesn't exactly have a clean record himself.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #6 

Post#24 » by wojoaderge » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:00 pm

Dr Spaceman wrote:He played out of position for a lot of his prime and had a lot of trouble in straight man D against athletic 3s.

That's why I say that
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #6 

Post#25 » by An Unbiased Fan » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:08 pm

Dr Spaceman wrote:I hope it's okay if I can jump in at this point. Garnett is getting traction and he deserves it. If people are having him more than a couple of spots behind Duncan, I think there's a problem. Dirk is also a guy I'll make a case for, I have him over Bird and probably Magic. I don't see Wilt being a candidate for me for several more spots. He's way too problematic and the best we saw from him certainly isn't better than what we saw from Shaq, who doesn't exactly have a clean record himself.

I would be intersted in hearing arguments/evidence for Dirk over Magic/Bird, because I don't quite see any. As for KG, what's his case over Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem, or even DRob?

I should say that the last thread only had about 8 pages. In 2014 most of the Top 10 was 20+ pages and even 30+ here and there. Far too many player career highlight posts so far, not necessarily enough analysis or comparisons going on. To be honest, I can't really say I still understand why most were picked at each rank. I can see possible reasons, but not much detailed debate has been had outside of Wilt vs Russell and maybe a couple other comparisons.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #6 

Post#26 » by THKNKG » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:09 pm

Dr Spaceman wrote:I hope it's okay if I can jump in at this point. Garnett is getting traction and he deserves it. If people are having him more than a couple of spots behind Duncan, I think there's a problem. Dirk is also a guy I'll make a case for, I have him over Bird and probably Magic. I don't see Wilt being a candidate for me for several more spots. He's way too problematic and the best we saw from him certainly isn't better than what we saw from Shaq, who doesn't exactly have a clean record himself.


These are my thoughts exactly. I am really considering moving Dirk up a level from where I had him.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #6 

Post#27 » by Blackmill » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:10 pm

trex_8063 wrote:OK, have it chaps.
I somewhat expect Wilt to run away with this one, but who knows? Maybe Magic, Shaq, or Hakeem will suddenly emerge as serious competition. Personally, I'm flip-flopping between Wilt and Shaq for this spot (though can see a nice case for Magic as well).

As a general question to all: how do you feel about Magic's defense?


His defense varied greatly. In the 1980 finals it was atrocious as he regularly lost his man, couldn't close out quickly enough, and was beat off the dribble. All this made it quite surprising to watch the 1983 finals and see Magic had become a positive defender. At this stage in his career, Magic had good hands and decent feet, so he got more deflections and drew more charges than your typical player. I've just started adding the possessions from the 1983 finals to "database", so while it's not the full game, you can watch his defense from the first half of G4 of the 1983 Finals. The good and the bad:



As you can see, he has a lot of good help rotations, but also several mistakes. His worst plays were letting Dr. J get an easy lob and and not getting back in transition after arguing with the ref. Magic also was beat off the dribble by Dr. J, though a lot of players would have been blown by, and he had a miscommunication with Landsberger while defending the PnR. It looked like Magic thought they would switch but Landsberger didn't. Otherwise, Magic's help forced Moses into a couple misses and stopped some drives and cuts to the basket. He did a fair job at contesting too.

He defended similarly in the 1988 playoffs, though he was slower, partially because he had a bad groin injury. So, he was still a capable help defender later in his career, but you didn't want him guarding a quick, smaller player.

In many games, Magic's defense can be hard to evaluate, since the Lakers overhelped and Magic was often the designated trapper. This led to a lot of situations where Magic had to closeout hard on spot up shooters or switch onto smaller players. In both situations the offense could usually take advantage of Magic's lateral speed. In the '83 and '88 finals the Lakers seemed more restrained with their help defense and Magic looks better as a result.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #6 

Post#28 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:11 pm

lebron3-14-3 wrote:I don't know why I have the fear that in past threads someone decided to vote for Lebron's rival, and somebody will vote for whoever can contend the plalce with wilt. I hope I'm wrong


Well, thing is, this time around we are supposed to give alternate votes in case our top choice doesn't win. It's supposed to basically be a simplified instant runoff voting, and in such cases the idea is that the guy with the most #1 votes doesn't necessarily win.

So I'll just tell you flat out:

Wilt's not in my Top 10, and probably everyone else being considered right now IS in my Top 10. I'll vote accordingly.

Is it my goal to hurt Wilt? Nah. I'm really not focused on what the list looks like so much as I am the discussion. But it'll end up hurting Wilt to some degree, though probably not that much.

If memory serves last time Wilt, Shaq, and Duncan were all very close. Wilt won out. This time Duncan won out. Wilt may drop below Shaq, but I'll be surprised if he drops further than that.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #6 

Post#29 » by wojoaderge » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:17 pm

An Unbiased Fan wrote:I would be intersted in hearing arguments/evidence for Dirk over Magic/Bird, because I don't quite see any. As for KG, what's his case over Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem, or even DRob?

There aren't any/there isn't one
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #6 

Post#30 » by JordansBulls » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:22 pm

Dr Spaceman wrote:I hope it's okay if I can jump in at this point. Garnett is getting traction and he deserves it. If people are having him more than a couple of spots behind Duncan, I think there's a problem. Dirk is also a guy I'll make a case for, I have him over Bird and probably Magic. I don't see Wilt being a candidate for me for several more spots. He's way too problematic and the best we saw from him certainly isn't better than what we saw from Shaq, who doesn't exactly have a clean record himself.

I would say the same if Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, Kobe, Magic are a couple of spots behind Duncan as well.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #6 

Post#31 » by Gibson22 » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:52 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
lebron3-14-3 wrote:I don't know why I have the fear that in past threads someone decided to vote for Lebron's rival, and somebody will vote for whoever can contend the plalce with wilt. I hope I'm wrong


Well, thing is, this time around we are supposed to give alternate votes in case our top choice doesn't win. It's supposed to basically be a simplified instant runoff voting, and in such cases the idea is that the guy with the most #1 votes doesn't necessarily win.

So I'll just tell you flat out:

Wilt's not in my Top 10, and probably everyone else being considered right now IS in my Top 10. I'll vote accordingly.

Is it my goal to hurt Wilt? Nah. I'm really not focused on what the list looks like so much as I am the discussion. But it'll end up hurting Wilt to some degree, though probably not that much.

If memory serves last time Wilt, Shaq, and Duncan were all very close. Wilt won out. This time Duncan won out. Wilt may drop below Shaq, but I'll be surprised if he drops further than that.


Yeah I agree with you, and I'm totally fine with him being outside your top 10. I just hope that if you (saying you as voter X) feel like, let's say magic is the #6 best player of all time, you don't vote for whoever is getting enought votes to beat wilt. i had the feeling that someone was doing it against lebron, but I could be wrong
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #6 

Post#32 » by Jaivl » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:56 pm

colts18 wrote:Putting Wilt in this spot is insane. There is little separation between him and David Robinson.

Team W-L:
Wilt: 672-373 (.643), 53 win pace
Robinson: 672-313 (.682), 56 win pace

Titles:
Wilt: 2
Robinson: 2

PER:
Wilt: 26.1
Robinson: 26.2

WS/48:
Wilt: .248
Robinson: .250

Playoff PER:
Wilt: 22.7
Robinson: 23.0

Playoff WS/48:
Wilt: .200
Robinson: .199


I do think Robinson should be ahead of Wilt, but not for these reasons, lol.

wojoaderge wrote:
An Unbiased Fan wrote:I would be intersted in hearing arguments/evidence for Dirk over Magic/Bird, because I don't quite see any. As for KG, what's his case over Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem, or even DRob?

There aren't any/there isn't one

There are, already were posted, and people chose to ignore them because they couldn't refute them.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #6 

Post#33 » by wojoaderge » Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:08 pm

Jaivl wrote:There are, already were posted, and people chose to ignore them because they couldn't refute them.

Where are they? I probably couldn't be bothered reading them because I feel the idea that they are top 10 players is absurd.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #6 

Post#34 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:08 pm

lebron3-14-3 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
lebron3-14-3 wrote:I don't know why I have the fear that in past threads someone decided to vote for Lebron's rival, and somebody will vote for whoever can contend the plalce with wilt. I hope I'm wrong


Well, thing is, this time around we are supposed to give alternate votes in case our top choice doesn't win. It's supposed to basically be a simplified instant runoff voting, and in such cases the idea is that the guy with the most #1 votes doesn't necessarily win.

So I'll just tell you flat out:

Wilt's not in my Top 10, and probably everyone else being considered right now IS in my Top 10. I'll vote accordingly.

Is it my goal to hurt Wilt? Nah. I'm really not focused on what the list looks like so much as I am the discussion. But it'll end up hurting Wilt to some degree, though probably not that much.

If memory serves last time Wilt, Shaq, and Duncan were all very close. Wilt won out. This time Duncan won out. Wilt may drop below Shaq, but I'll be surprised if he drops further than that.


Yeah I agree with you, and I'm totally fine with him being outside your top 10. I just hope that if you (saying you as voter X) feel like, let's say magic is the #6 best player of all time, you don't vote for whoever is getting enought votes to beat wilt. i had the feeling that someone was doing it against lebron, but I could be wrong


I understand that wish, but I don't see the ethical issue with doing that given the set up of the voting.

The reality is that if more people would vote for X over Y, to my mind, X should get ranked higher than Y except in very odd circumstances.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #6 

Post#35 » by Jaivl » Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:12 pm

wojoaderge wrote:Where are they?

KG has been argued ad nauseam on lots of threads, for example in the #3 to #5 positions of this list.

wojoaderge wrote:I probably couldn't be bothered reading them because I feel the idea that they are top 10 players is absurd.

That's a shame. No real point in arguing with a closed mind. Saves me the time, though.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #6 

Post#36 » by THKNKG » Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:13 pm

wojoaderge wrote:
Jaivl wrote:There are, already were posted, and people chose to ignore them because they couldn't refute them.

Where are they? I probably couldn't be bothered reading them because I feel the idea that they are top 10 players is absurd.

But that's literally the worst way to go into an open minded discussion.

I want to be as open minded to the inevitable Kobe in top 10 discussion as I can be. I am human, and can be wrong, and am often. I hope that those who do things like that will also be open minded for my KG at 6 thinking, or my Dirk in top 10 discussion.

What you just said is problematic, but at least you vocalized it. You, in effect, said "my presuppositions cannot be wrong, so any discussion contrary to my presuppositions is useless."
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #6 

Post#37 » by THKNKG » Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:16 pm

This is terrible logic:
"X is superior to Y"
Contrary data is presented
"But X is superior to Y, so that is absurd"

It's circular. Blatantly so.

We have to be open to being wrong. Please do so. If I appear to be doing the same, please tell me so I can attempt to correct it.
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Re: RE: Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #6 

Post#38 » by ardee » Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:17 pm

wojoaderge wrote:
An Unbiased Fan wrote:I would be intersted in hearing arguments/evidence for Dirk over Magic/Bird, because I don't quite see any. As for KG, what's his case over Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem, or even DRob?

There aren't any/there isn't one

Exactly. Not even a modicum. I skip over the posts discussing it because I wouldn't even entertain the thought, and there's no point in refuting them because the people making them are so set on it already.

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #6 

Post#39 » by Colbinii » Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:20 pm

ardee wrote:
wojoaderge wrote:
An Unbiased Fan wrote:I would be intersted in hearing arguments/evidence for Dirk over Magic/Bird, because I don't quite see any. As for KG, what's his case over Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem, or even DRob?

There aren't any/there isn't one

Exactly. Not even a modicum. I skip over the posts discussing it because I wouldn't even entertain the thought, and there's no point in refuting them because the people making them are so set on it already.

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Why are you so closed minded?

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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #6 

Post#40 » by Jaivl » Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:21 pm

^^ If this is the prevailing attitude about the project and about the insightful posts that come with it, I would politely ask to be taken away from the voters' list. No point in arguing, really.
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