RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #5

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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #5 

Post#161 » by rebirthoftheM » Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:02 am

eminence wrote:My bad, you said: "barely anybody thought they were on the same level"

A cover article in SI proclaiming his dominance over Shaq is not a "barely anybody thought they were on the same level" situation. Not even close. Better MVP placements over even Shaq's most dominant period ('00-'02) is not a not the same level situation. Hell, Duncan outplayed Shaq in '02, but keep bringing up that one as a sign of Shaq's dominance.


Absolutely it is. We had prominent dudes in the media/ex players saying Kobe>MJ in 06. This did not make this remotely a majority opinion. You will always find people saying varying things, even on big platforms. Hell now, we have people saying KD>LBJ, but this is a minority opinion in the public domain. We shouldn't put much stock into these fringe opinions.

The Net's presidents casual reference to Shaq being the best player every year was not a fringe opinion... Shaq was LBJ in the early 00s. RS didn't mean jack to his standing. Again, only somebody who was not paying attention at the time, and had little knowledge on how Shaq's stature in the NBA dwarfed Duncan's, leading to his natural 'best player' popularity would say such a thing.

We are covering a period of time that goes beyond 1 playoff series when Shaq was still considered a loser (99) and used to be critiqued for the dysfunctionality of the pre- PJ Lakers. We are trying to gauge the general sentiment over the general period of time that extends from 99-05. And the dominant sentiment was...Shaq>Duncan. He was by default, the best player in the NBA.

As for 02... you conflate actual play v perception of play. My point was... barely anybody thought Duncan was better. What does that have to do with how people perceived the two? This is an entirely different matter (as for 02.. Duncan fell apart every 4th quarter as his team offense choked, but i'll just let that slide).


And your constant MVP referencing... at this stage I feel like you're trolling about its credibility in assessing who was perceived as the best player in the L.

http://a.espncdn.com/nba/s/2002/0416/1369520.html


Last link. this is 02 when Shaq is being spoken about modern day LBJ and how dominance is being taken for granted in favour of TD and other dudes. TD's ascent is read as a RS thing, which needs to be settled in the playoffs. Shaq is still seen as the dominant guy who is injured but will be back. I guess Jason Kidd and Allen Iverson were at some point seen as Shaq's superior.

http://web.archive.org/web/20030207071146/http://www.nba.com/preview2002/General_Manager_Survey.html

Annual GM Survey. You will notice that Shaq got 64% of the vote for 'who would you start a franchise with today', blowing out TD and Kobe, despite the fact that Shaq was 30 year by this stage. Shaq also got 30% for expected MVP, higher than TD, despite Kobe also getting 30% himself. There is so much out there to support the opinion that Shaq was considered the best. The accuracy of this is another matter altogether.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #5 

Post#162 » by Texas Chuck » Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:03 am

rebirthoftheM wrote:
Spoiler:
Texas Chuck wrote:,if someone wants to make a case for Kobe then just make it but save us the passive aggressive posts 're Timmy already . Please.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J120AZ using RealGM mobile app


This is highly disappointing. It seems that the Kobe boogeyman looms large.

Part of the value of these threads, is that many outsiders/non-voters such as myself (as well as voters) can go back and learn new things about the ATGs. They can read in-depth arguments and counters on a particular player. So far, the Wilt discussion has been excellent, as was the Kareem convo and Russell convos. Hell the LBJ 'does he compromise his teams' discussion was fascinating. I learned a lot on this front. And I expect to learn a lot about Dirk/KG/Hakeem etc.

But Duncan? Frankly I didn't learn anything new about him. There was little critical analysis over his career. And to me this was disappointing, because he just swept Shaq, and beat out Wilt, without going through a rigorous process that we've seen from other players. Hell, the only reason why I know about Timmy's 'skeletons' is because I grew up watching him (and yes admiring him) and used to frequent spurstalk back in the day for admittedly trolling purposes. I opened up a thread recently about TD, and I learned far more about TD than I did here. I've theorized why I believe TD is treated with such kiddy gloves, and why that should not be so. I've been very transparent on my position.

This has very little to do with Kobe, in that I believe Shaq, despite all of his personality issues, was clearly (though the gap isn't too large) better than Hakeem/Duncan/Kobe/KG/Dirk etc. And I go back and forth about Wilt, But I do think he is better than TD. Duncan is the first dude amongst the lot who was selected over Shaq, so I was trying to raise some issues which IMO favor lend weight to Shaq over TD (such as Shaq leading far more dominant teams than prime TD for example, even accounting for talent).

To go down the Kobe boogeyman route is again disappointing, and I do hope you retract it. No player should go through this process unscrutinized.

Again, TD has been voted in. But this is not good, also because I'm concerned that when Kobe does come up, the playing field will be toxic from the onset.

eminence wrote:I see that all the time now "During their primes nobody thought Duncan was on Shaq's level". And I don't know who y'all were hanging out with, but outside of LA that certainly wasn't the case. MVP finishes from '98 to '05.

If that isn't two players with similarly perceived primes I don't know who is.


I'm not sure about the relevance of RPOY in making a distinction between how Shaq and TD were perceived at the time.

But going back to the MVP... I'm not sure if you were seriously following the NBA at the time (and I don't mean this condescendingly- I know many weren't at the time) but post 00, both Shaq and Kobe's MVP ratings suffered from playing next to each-other. The two of them were often cited as 2 of the 3 best players in the NBA, and they were on the same damn team. Meanwhile TD, although he had excellent teams, did not have a recognizable superstar with him (D-rob was no longer that dude). This is why their MVP finishes varied, and why someone like AI was able to win the MVP, despite not even being in the same stratosphere as Shaq.

So quoting MVP finishes post 00 to suggest that folks viewed them as being on the same level is misleading. It would be akin to suggest that Nash was seen on the same level as a player as Kobe/Wade/LBJ etc in the mid 00s, despite this being categorically false (many at the time made the distinction that MVP=/= best player to justify Nash's selection).

I could go hunting for a dozen news clippings from the time. But I do not feel need to do. Anyone with a genuine recollection of the early 00s will know that Shaq was seen as the superior player than TD, and in general was rightfully considered the best player in the NBA in the early 00s. TD's rise came over the time, but Shaq was just considered more dominant, and in the early 00s, dominance was highly highly valued. Shaq was also very much liked/popular at the time, while TD was a recluse who played what many considered boring basketball (this is also a partial reason why, despite the claims on this thread, most folks in the public domain, including pundits, coaches and media people) believed Kobe was better than Duncan 06 onwards). This added to Shaq's case, who was seen as the most unstoppable force in the modern era.

The closest Shaq's status was being challenged was in 01 via Kobe (hence the rift- a lot of people were saying Kobe was supplanting Shaq) and after TD defeated the Shaq/Lakers in 03. KG got some traction, and indeed in 04, Shaq looked to be slowing down. But at TD and Shaq's best, Shaq was seen as that dude, particular as his teams thrashed TD's teams in 01 (probably TD's lowest point) and in 02. Again, I find this to be the very basic recollection of history, and I do hope some other posters who followed the NBA can corroborate this, because I feel like we lived in different worlds... and no I was not in LA at the time.


Retract? No of course not.

The whole arguments boil down to Duncan only gets credit cuz he wins but see Kobe wins too. Tho it ignores Kobe won a lot less and it ignores a lot of context and the importance of Shaq. But fine. But then you want to point out a handful of games he didn't shoot well and shout outrage that everyone isn't hyper-focusing on those games. Kobe has far more bad shooting games than Duncan and of course he doesn't bring anywhere near the defensive value so when Kobe has a terrible shooting night its far worse than Duncan.

But even that is all kinda okay even if the logic is completely missing. Its the whole whiny approach of everyone loves Timmy and people don't like Kobe. Well duh. Duncan was a complete class act his entire career and well Kobe wasn't. Karl Malone suffers from being unlikable. As do others. Sorry everyone doesn't love Kobe but they don't.

But even that doesn't matter. People on this board by and large aren't voting for guys because they are fans or not. OR they shouldn't be. It's just that most people clearly viewed Duncan to be a better player than Kobe and almost no one thought Kobe worthy of discussion this high so they weren't concerned with comparing him to Duncan.

But again to go back to my original statement--if you believe Kobe has a legit case, terrific. My ears are open to listen to it. But its got to be more than this woe is Kobe and Duncan never gets criticized silliness. Duncan gets criticized where its warranted.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #5 

Post#163 » by rebirthoftheM » Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:24 am

Texas Chuck wrote:
The whole arguments boil down to Duncan only gets credit cuz he wins but see Kobe wins too. Tho it ignores Kobe won a lot less and it ignores a lot of context and the importance of Shaq. But fine. But then you want to point out a handful of games he didn't shoot well and shout outrage that everyone isn't hyper-focusing on those games. Kobe has far more bad shooting games than Duncan and of course he doesn't bring anywhere near the defensive value so when Kobe has a terrible shooting night its far worse than Duncan.

But even that is all kinda okay even if the logic is completely missing. Its the whole whiny approach of everyone loves Timmy and people don't like Kobe. Well duh. Duncan was a complete class act his entire career and well Kobe wasn't. Karl Malone suffers from being unlikable. As do others. Sorry everyone doesn't love Kobe but they don't.

But even that doesn't matter. People on this board by and large aren't voting for guys because they are fans or not. OR they shouldn't be. It's just that most people clearly viewed Duncan to be a better player than Kobe and almost no one thought Kobe worthy of discussion this high so they weren't concerned with comparing him to Duncan.

But again to go back to my original statement--if you believe Kobe has a legit case, terrific. My ears are open to listen to it. But its got to be more than this woe is Kobe and Duncan never gets criticized silliness. Duncan gets criticized where its warranted.


Dude... I just went through explaining why this isn't about Kobe, and who i was actually trying to prop up/angling towards, and then you go right back to the Kobe angle? Why caricature my position that way? What's your issue? In fact, I might add, one of my larger concerns with TD is the whole 'defense centric' rating, which I vehemently disagree with. That's my agenda quite frankly.

And just a few games? These were several examples of where Duncan fell on his face at critical moments in the playoffs/whole series where his offense fell off, the fact that the spurs were at their most dominant when they moved away from a Duncan centric offense (something Wilt has been blasted over, but obviously his situation is more egregious), the fact that he led far less dominant championship squads than other ATGs because of the weak offenses he led, and you reduce it to that? How about when none of these relative weaknesses and failures are raised/overlooked, yet Wilt is scrutinized for every tiny bit detail in this career? Hell Bill Russell was scrutinized more heavily than TD and it appears everyone else from here on will also. I honestly learnt nothing knew about TD this time around. Is it unreasonable for me to raise this as a concern?

Honestly at this stage, it appears the Kobe boogeyman agenda has infected your thought process, to the point where everywhere you turn you read "KOBE GOAT". There is no team kobe illuminati squad present, and I would have raised Kobe's arguments if I thought it was warranted, but we have Shaq still on the board (and this is coming from someone who doesn't like Shaq, and who thinks TD's professionalism makes the gap between he and Shaq closer as I mentioned in another thread), which IMO i find far more difficult to accept than Kobe not being raised.

Lay down the pitchforks man...You're meant to be a moderator here, and I would expect you try and stay from wild conspiracy theories about people's intentions. I know you don't like Kobe and all, but it's not that big of a deal..
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #5 

Post#164 » by Texas Chuck » Fri Jun 30, 2017 4:20 am

Its odd that you are focused on my dislike for Kobe when I am one of his bigger champions on this board. I don't like him--was never a fan. But I have a ton of respect for Kobe the player and see him as a legit candidate at the bottom of the top ten. And as I stated earlier I don't vote based on my fandom. You won't see any Dirk or Pippen votes from me for a long time yet. And I'll vote Kobe and Mailman ahead of the consensus until there has been a sea change here.

My issue was not anti-Kobe but rather an issue with the specific posts being made. I will never criticize anyone who makes a reasoned case for any player at any position. Even if I disagree, I respect that others feel differently and that their opinions are valid. But Duncan is in and even you agree you aren't ready for Kobe yet so we can drop this whole line.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #5 

Post#165 » by rebirthoftheM » Fri Jun 30, 2017 4:44 am

Texas Chuck wrote:Its odd that you are focused on my dislike for Kobe when I am one of his bigger champions on this board. I don't like him--was never a fan. But I have a ton of respect for Kobe the player and see him as a legit candidate at the bottom of the top ten. And as I stated earlier I don't vote based on my fandom. You won't see any Dirk or Pippen votes from me for a long time yet. And I'll vote Kobe and Mailman ahead of the consensus until there has been a sea change here.

My issue was not anti-Kobe but rather an issue with the specific posts being made. I will never criticize anyone who makes a reasoned case for any player at any position. Even if I disagree, I respect that others feel differently and that their opinions are valid. But Duncan is in and even you agree you aren't ready for Kobe yet so we can drop this whole line.


It’s odd? Really? I make several points about Duncan’s career, and then respond to your post about nameless Kobe supporters who are low-key trying to bring TD down to prop up Kobe, and then I clarify that this is not about Kobe at all, and then you go on a rant about not everyone loving Kobe and I should deal with it. Is that a good summary? And if so, who was the person who went out of their way to talk about Kobe/perception of Kobe in this thread? Certainly not me. And then you say it’s odd for me to raise the elephant in the room? (FYI had several players in mind when thinking about how TD is treated differently. Wilt’s scrutiny got me going. But my purpose was not to prop up these players here, but to scrutinize TD to level the field)

I mean we do all have brains here. As children, we all learned to connect the dots that are in front of us. And then when that is done, it becomes obvious that you have an axe to grind against the Kobe team Illuminati squad that is supposedly hatching pro-kobe plots by way of TD (or perhaps just plotting on their own), even when they tell you they are not. There is no other reasonable conclusion for you going off on a tangent about things nobody (at least I) wrote about, and for you to continue with it even after being explicitly corrected.

Got zero issues with you disagreeing with the points being raised about TD. But the conspiracy theories you’ve engaged in are unbecoming. That is why I asked you to retract it. You were dipping into matters you had no knowledge of. I hope you see this now and will drop it.

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