RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #6

[THKNKG]

Uh...wait. LA was the #1 offense in 1980. Magic was at an elite level from 1982 and on. With KG we 're talking about maybe a 04-08 span, and even then that's dubious since his teams in Minny were bad defensively.

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

????. Ricky Davis

Do you have the numbers for KG's team numbers defensively with him/without him for Minny and Boston?

[Colbinii]

Do you have the numbers for KG's team numbers defensively with him/without him for Minny and Boston?

I appreciate your response ahead of time. I'm certainly going to read it. I don't know, though. Like I said, I can reasonably see him as Top 20 great, but being Top 10 great is way too much of a stretch for me. Look at Moses Malone, for example. Nobody has even mentioned him yet, but Moses<KG and/or Dirk just doesn't compute to me.

Thanks Woj. I understand why you like Moses, and it is a fair and valid point given your criteria and given your view of Kevin Garnett. I will attempt to present some new information that hopefully opens your mind up about the dominance of Kevin Garnett, which goes far beyond his 1 championship and 1 MVP.

First, I would like to focus on the defensive end.

1. Kevin Garnett was the most versatile defender we have ever seen play in the NBA. He can guard every position 1-5 and he has the ability switch every pick and roll.

Kobe Bryant flies by Anthony Peeler as he brings the ball to half-court.



Garnett picks up Bryant, forcing him inside to the help defense (Rasho Nesterovic)



Garnett has Kobe where he wants him, trying to finish over Rasho Nesterovic while being on Kobe's blind side



Garnett's length and skill allows him to block Bryant



Kobe runs the pick and roll with a goal to get an isolation on the right side of the court. Garnett switches onto Kobe.



Garnett forces Kobe to go inside, where his help is. Keep in mind, there are no players to the top right of the picture. The entire side of the court is open, yet Garnett is still able to force Kobe into the crowded paint. KG is also able to stay in front of a young Kobe Bryant with the use of great hand and foot work.



Kobe is forced to pass the ball out to the perimeter where the Lakers will have to reset with little time left on the shot clock.



A 22 year old LeBron is going 1 on 1 versus a 31 year old Kevin Garnett.



LeBron begins his drive and KG is happy to force him into two other celtics defenders.



Garnett stops LeBron in his tracks, forcing LeBron to pick up his dribble. LeBron attempts to do a spin move, but it works to no avail.



Garnett and Pierce communicate as Garnett gets ready to switch on Wally Szczerbiak after he receives a pass from LeBron.



Garnett begins to switch onto Wally Szczerbiak.



Garnett is now guarding Wally Szczerbiak and is pressuring him, forcing him back and outside of the 3 point line.



Garnett, originally guarding LeBron at the top of the key, is now guarding Wally Szczerbiak during the same possession.



Garnett strips Wally and they are off to the races.



What does this all mean?

Kevin Garnett is able to guard the best and most athletic wing players we have ever seen. He can stop LeBron and a young Kobe Bryant as they are driving to the basketball. He has the stamina to guard multiple ball handlers over a single possession.

2. Kevin Garnett is an elite rim protector

Peja grabs an offensive rebound and is looking to put the shot back.



As Peja sets up his shot, Garnett hastily steps towards Peja and closes the space.



Garnett meets the ball and actually grabs it and comes down with it, mid air.



One thing to note about Garnett's blocks, almost all of them end up in possession of his team. Garnett isn't only an elite shot "blocker", but he is also elite at controlling the ball as he blocks the shot.

Shooting percentage of opponents within 5 feet of the rim against Kevin Garnett from 97-10:

1997: 51.3% on 26.1 attempts/game
1998: 58.2% on 24.4 attempts/game
1999: 58.8% on 20.6 attempts/game
2000: 58.0% on 21.5 attempts/game
2001: 58.0% on 22.5 attempts/game
2002: 58.2% on 20.0 attempts/game
2003: 58.1% on 20.9 attempts/game
2004: 53.7% on 20.7 attempts/game
2005: 56.7% on 22.0 attempts/game
2006: 55.1% on 23.4 attempts/game
2007: 60.1% on 22.2 attempts/game
2008: 55.5% on 16.6 attempts/game
2009: 54.4% on 17.4 attempts/game
2010: 56.5% on 17.1 attempts/game

There is a clear correlation between the amount of attempts Garnett was forced to stop at the rim and how good his fellow perimeter defenders were. When he had the likes of Sam Cassell, Latrell Sprewell, Troy Hudson, and Wally Szczerbiak defending the perimeter, he was facing many more shots at the rim. When Garnett had players like Rajon Rondo, Paul Pierce, and Tony Allen, the amount of attempts defended within 5 feet drops substantially. The shots Garnett was defending while playing with mediocre to poor defenders were likely more difficult to defend as well.

When we compare these to Tim Duncan, he was between 49% and 52% when he played next to David Robinson. Without David Robinson, he was between 53% and 56%, in line with what Garnett played with in Boston and his peak season in 2004. Dwight Howard, from 07-11, was between 55% and 59% in each of those seasons.


3. Kevin Garnett's ability to rotate on time is in the GOAT tier for defensive big men.

Garnett rotates over to help his smaller guard in the paint.



Garnett is in position to meet the ball as it is still going up.



Garnett's hand is about 1 foot from to the top of the backboard as he makes this block.



Garnett starts on Robert Horry. An interesting part of this play is before Horry was at the top of the key, he was on the elbow. Garnett forced him back that far as he attempted to post up and receive an entry pass from the wing.



Garnett follows the entry pass seamlessly and begins to rotate onto Shaq while the ball is still in the air.



By the time Shaq takes one dribble, Garnett is already in position for a block attempt.



Garnett is able to block Shaq from behind without a foul. The block deflects off the backboard and right into a Timberwolves hands. It was likely easier for Garnett to block the shot to the sideline and out of bounds, but his ability to control his blocks is once again at the forefront.



There is no question that Garnett's defensive versatility sets him apart from every single player to ever play the game. Their were better rim protectors, but their hasn't been a player who was required to do the list of things Garnett did while in Minnesota on the defensive end.


Timberwolves/Celtics Defensive Rating with Kevin Garnett On/Off (League Rank):
2001: 102.9 (14th), 107.2 (27th)
2002: 104.2 (14th), 108.6 (Last)
2003: 102.4 (10th), 110.9 (Last)
2004: 98.5 (5th), 104.6 (20th)
2005: 106.6 (14th) , 105.3 (12th)
2006: 104.7 (11th), 105.5 (14th)
2007: 106.2 (13th), 112.5 (Last)
2008: 97.3 (1st), 101.4 (1st)
2009: 98.6 (1st), 105.8 (7th)
2010: 102.1 (1st), 106.7 (14th)
2011: 98.1 (1st), 104.4 (7th)

Garnett shows the ability to make absolutely terrible defensive players and personnel into average defensive teams. He has shown the ability to make average defensive players and personnel into very good defenses. Last, Garnett has shown that he can take already very good defenses and make them all-time great.

Here is a graph depicting the same information above.



What makes Kevin Garnett great offensively?

1. Passing

Kevin Garnett is one of the greatest passing offensive big men of all-time. As an offensive anchor for the Minnesota Timberwolves from 1998 to 2007 (10 seasons), he averaged 4.9 assists per game to only 2.7 turnovers. If we look at some advanced numbers, we get 22.7 AST% to 11.9 TOV%.

From 2001 to 2007, Garnett had 570 "bad passes", which is 81 bad passes per season (or 1 per game). For a guy who averaged nearly 5 assists per game, only 1 bad pass per game is a fantastic ratio. If we compare this for Vlade Divac from 01-04, he had 85 bad passes per season, but only 3.8 assists. Chris Webber, from 01-03 had 90 bad passes per season with 4.8 assists per game.

2. Post Scoring

If you want to get a picture of the variety of post-moves Garnett had in his arsenal, look no further than this video that highlights only his 2008 season.

Watch on YouTube

Here are Kevin Garnett's scoring numbers "at the rim" from 2001 - 2011 (%Assisted):

2001: 67.7% on 356 attempts (66%)
2002: 65.9% on 311 attempts (50.7%)
2003: 70.9% on 337 attempts (58.2%)
2004: 67.9% on 452 attempts (63.8%)
2005: 65.2% on 374 attempts (64.3%)
2006: 66.8% on 313 attempts (59.8%)
2007: 64.3% on 283 attempts (56%)
2008: 70.2% on 339 attempts (71.8%)
2009: 76.7% on 180 attempts (85.5%)
2010: 65.3% on 300 attempts (83.2%)
2011: 73.2% on 247 attempts (78.9%)

How does Duncan compare?

2001: 69.1% on 453 attempts (53.7%)
2002: 71.2% on 518 attempts (51.5%)
2003: 68.6% on 535 attempts (51.0%)
2004: Did not load
2005: 67.3% on 431 attempts (57.2%)
2006: 72.7% on 461 attempts (54.6%)
2007: 69.9% on 568 attempts (53.9%)
2008: 68% on 506 attempts (58.4%)
2009: 64.1% on 370 attempts (62%)
2010: 68.6% on 382 attempts (66%)

Duncan has a slight edge as a better finisher around the rim, but Garnett is still elite in this regard. Duncan takes many more shots at the rim, which is why his FG% is higher than Garnett, but does that make him a better scorer?


3. Mid-Range Shooting

What made Kevin Garnett such a fantastic offensive player, aside from his already covered elite passing skills, was his ability to score from everywhere, and specifically, score where the team needed him. Unlike Duncan, Garnett is an elite mid-range shooter.

Here are Kevin Garnett's scoring numbers "10-16 feet" and below them "16 to <3-pt" from 2001 - 2011 (%Assisted):

2001: 44.4% on 306 attempts (52.2%)
2002: 48.1% on 314 attempts (54.3%)
2003: 49.6% on 413 attempts (56.6%)
2004: 47.3% on 476 attempts (53.3%)
2005: 42.9% on 361 attempts (67.1%)
2006: 51.1% on 284 attempts (50.3%)
2007: 43.9% on 328 attempts (51.4%)
2008: 48.7% on 302 attempts (43.5%)
2009: 44.1% on 136 attempts (48.3%)
2010: 39.8% on 161 attempts (51.6%)
2011: 43.8% on 137 attempts (60%)


2001: 41.5% on 407 attempts (73.4%)
2002: 40.0% on 395 attempts (72.2%)
2003: 46.6% on 459 attempts (70.1%)
2004: 43.3% on 614 attempts (81.6%)
2005: 46.5% on 318 attempts (83.1%)
2006: 46.4% on 358 attempts (80.1%)
2007: 42.3% on 423 attempts (74.9%)
2008: 47.2% on 511 attempts (89.6%)
2009: 44.1% on 279 attempts (93.5%)
2010: 47.6% on 401 attempts (90.6%)
2011: 46.2% on 355 attempts (92.1%)

How does Dirk Nowitzki compare?

2001: 46.8% on 250 attempts (57.3%)
2002: 42.9% on 226 attempts (54.6%)
2003: 50.5% on 376 attempts (46.3%)
2004: 46.0% on 276 attempts (52.0%)
2005: 43.6% on 349 attempts (45.4%)
2006: 48.4% on 516 attempts (35.2%)
2007: 49.3% on 363 attempts (36.9%)
2008: 48.1% on 370 attempts (43.3%)
2009: 49.0% on 567 attempts (41.0%)
2010: 45.6% on 472 attempts (46.5%)
2011: 49.2% on 429 attempts (42.7%)


2001: 44.9% on 292 attempts (73.3%)
2002: 49.0% on 355 attempts (75.9%)
2003: 40.4% on 532 attempts (68.4%)
2004: 46.6% on 487 attempts (75.3%)
2005: 41.6% on 630 attempts (59.2%)
2006: 47.2% on 606 attempts (59.4%)
2007: 50.0% on 504 attempts (64.7%)
2008: 49.5% on 412 attempts (72.5%)
2009: 47.9% on 603 attempts (73.7%)
2010: 46.9% on 605 attempts (79.6%)
2011: 51.9% on 489 attempts (84.3%)

Garnett is actually better from mid-range from 01-05, and it isn't until 2009 where Dirk has a clear edge in terms of mid-range scoring. Now, my point here isn't "OMG KG IS A BETTER MIDRANGE SHOOTER THAN DIRK", rather, it is to show just how close they are in terms of mid-range shooters, like I did with Garnett and Duncan for at-rim scoring. If we are looking at it like this, we see that Kevin Garnett is a clearly superior playmaker/passer to both these bigs, and is a comparable scorer to both these all-time greats.

When looking at Kevin Garnett's offensive game, he doesn't have any weaknesses, and that is what we should look at when we look at top 10 players of all-time. Kevin Garnett is an elite mid-range and close range scorer. He provides an insane amount of spacing for his teammates, which allows him to play with any type of big man in NBA history. He can play with a low post threat like Shaquille O'Neal and he can play with a big man who has range like Dirk Nowitzki with no issues for fit. Unfortunately, a majority of Kevin Garnett's career was spent playing with big men like Rasho Nesterovic, Ervin "Not so Magical" Johnson, Cherokee Parks, Joe Smith, and Kendrick Perkins.

What does this mean for Kevin Garnett's impact on the game of basketball offensively? A ton.

If we look at Kevin Garnett's on/off for offensive through his career, we can see just how much his passing, playmaking, and scoring arsenal effect his team.

Timberwolves/Celtics Offensive Rating with Kevin Garnett On/Off (League Rank):

2001: 106.2 (8th), 101.7 (18th)
2002: 110 (2nd), 104.4 (15th)
2003: 108.5 (3rd), 93.4 (2nd to Last)
2004: 108.3 (3rd), 93.8 (Last)
2005: 108.4 (6th), 106.3 (14th)
2006: 105.3 (18th) , 95.2 (Last)
2007: 105.7 (16th), 97.3 (Last)
2008: 113.6 (2nd), 105.9 (21st)
2009: 112.8 (3rd), 109.4 (10th)
2010: 109.8 (10th), 106.7 (19th)
2011: 111.1 (6th), 101.3 (Last)

As we see here, Garnett's impact on offense is immense (just like his defense). Again, he is taking "awful" supporting offensive casts and making them into very good to great offenses (consistently top 5). At the same time, he is taking average offensive supporting casts and turning them into great offenses.

Here is a graph of the phenomena.



All in all, Kevin Garnett leaves a footprint on an NBA game in more ways than any player in NBA History. He wasn't the interior force that Shaq was, he isn't the rim protector that Bill Russell was, and he wasn't the shooter that Dirk was. However, his ability to still be elite in all those categories, while being an elite playmaker, makes him a shoe-in for a top 10 player of all-time. Ironically, Garnett's biggest strengths are what kept Minnesota from being a title contender. Garnett was able to fill in so many gaps for the team that the front office rarely added any all-star level talents to play with Garnett, even though they would have fit marvelously (any all-star fits marvelously with Garnett).

[Jaivl]

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

????. Ricky Davis

Do you have the numbers for KG's team numbers defensively with him/without him for Minny and Boston?

From bref:

Spoiler:

edit: lol

[Colbinii]

Uh...wait. LA was the #1 offense in 1980. Magic was at an elite level from 1982 and on. With KG we 're talking about maybe a 04-08 span, and even then that's dubious since his teams in Minny were bad defensively.

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

????. Ricky Davis

Do you have the numbers for KG's team numbers defensively with him/without him for Minny and Boston?

[THKNKG]

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

????. Ricky Davis

Do you have the numbers for KG's team numbers defensively with him/without him for Minny and Boston?

From bref:

Spoiler:

edit: lol

I'm a dummy. I had no idea bref had this.

[Dr Positivity]

Thank you for that epic post Colbinii

[An Unbiased Fan]

Uh...wait. LA was the #1 offense in 1980. Magic was at an elite level from 1982 and on. With KG we 're talking about maybe a 04-08 span, and even then that's dubious since his teams in Minny were bad defensively.

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

????. Ricky Davis

This is kinda where people lose me. Magic came in as a rookie with 18 ppg 60%TS 7.3 apg, and LA had the #1 offense, but the only reply is Kareem's name? You can't make the claim that Magic only had 6 Magic like years without backing that up.

As for Ricky Davis, if KG was some super defensive anchor one who expect Minny to not be so god awful with him anchoring things in his prime years. Show me some tangible evidence of KG's prime years being better than Magic's. Not just names of people on their respective teams.

[THKNKG]

Question for those arguing for Wilt: skill wise, what was he better at than KG, besides scoring at the rim and rim defense?

[THKNKG]

Uh...wait. LA was the #1 offense in 1980. Magic was at an elite level from 1982 and on. With KG we 're talking about maybe a 04-08 span, and even then that's dubious since his teams in Minny were bad defensively.

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

????. Ricky Davis

This is kinda where people lose me. Magic came in as a rookie with 18 ppg 60%TS 7.3 apg, and LA had the #1 offense, but the only reply is Kareem's name? You can't make the claim that Magic only had 6 Magic like years without backing that up.

As for Ricky Davis, if KG was some super defensive anchor one who expect Minny to not be so god awful with him anchoring things in his prime years. Show me some tangible evidence of KG's prime years being better than Magic's. Not just names of people on their respective teams.

There was just a massive post (with charts) addressing on/off offensive and defensive ratings during KG's prime (and Duncan, Kobe, and Lebron).

Also, I remember in other threads, that you say offense > defense because one defender can't impact a team as much as an offensive player (Bill Russell is who you were referring to). Why are you holding KG to a different standard, as if anyone in history could have made Minny an upper echelon team defensively during the years he couldn't? That's not consistent.

[Colbinii]

Thank you for that epic post Colbinii

Thanks. I had to channel all the epicness I could after my failure last night.

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[An Unbiased Fan]

Colbinii, I don't neccesarily agree with your takes on KG, but really want to give you props for that post. That's what these projects are about. Really great analysis.

[penbeast0]

Question for those arguing for Wilt: skill wise, what was he better at than KG, besides scoring at the rim and rim defense?

Skillwise, what was Shaq better at than KG other than scoring at the rim and rim defense? or for that matter Adrian Dantley or even Corliss Williamson? Size matters, being an outlier physical freak (Even compared to Kevin Garnett) matters. Wilt and Shaq were the two most physically dominant players in history because of their size/strength/athleticism combination being unmatched. Both had skills, but they didn't need those skills to be as impressive as smaller, weaker, and/or slower players because of that physical ability.

[Colbinii]

Colbinii, I don't neccesarily agree with your takes on KG, but really want to give you props for that post. That's what these projects are about. Really great analysis.

Thanks, and I agree with what you are saying. Ultimately, we are all different people with vastly differenent views of a game we all love. It would be stupid if everyone viewed such a beautiful sport the exact way I do, or you do, or anyone else does.

Sent from my SM-G920P using RealGM mobile app

[MisterHibachi]

Haven't had a chance to read much of this thread so I'm gonna abstain from voting, although it doesn't look like my number one choice (Shaq) is getting much traction here. It's strange to see Duncan so far removed from his peers like Shaq and Kobe who were considered in the same tier as him during their collective primes. I'm not gonna make the case for him here, but I think Kobe's offensive impact usually gets overlooked or downplayed on this board in general. I think he deserves consideration soon.

[THKNKG]

Question for those arguing for Wilt: skill wise, what was he better at than KG, besides scoring at the rim and rim defense?

Skillwise, what was Shaq better at than KG other than scoring at the rim and rim defense? or for that matter Adrian Dantley or even Corliss Williamson? Size matters, being an outlier physical freak (Even compared to Kevin Garnett) matters. Wilt and Shaq were the two most physically dominant players in history because of their size/strength/athleticism combination being unmatched. Both had skills, but they didn't need those skills to be as impressive as smaller, weaker, and/or slower players because of that physical ability.

With Shaq, I get it. We have evidence of both box score and team impact. With wilt, we just get box score impact for the most part, with only a few years of that otherworldly impact people are talking about. With KG, we have as much, if not more documented impact as Shaq. Why does Wilt not fall shorter than KG because of that? Wilt did not always play in a way that maximized his and his team's impact (probably around 5 years or so), whereas all available evidence says KG almost always maximized his and his team's. Dominance only matters if it contributes to results, and Wilt's often didn't.

[Xherdan 23]

...

Just... WOW!

I can't say I'm a believer now but this is a massive effort and great work. Thank you.

[An Unbiased Fan]

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

????. Ricky Davis

This is kinda where people lose me. Magic came in as a rookie with 18 ppg 60%TS 7.3 apg, and LA had the #1 offense, but the only reply is Kareem's name? You can't make the claim that Magic only had 6 Magic like years without backing that up.

As for Ricky Davis, if KG was some super defensive anchor one who expect Minny to not be so god awful with him anchoring things in his prime years. Show me some tangible evidence of KG's prime years being better than Magic's. Not just names of people on their respective teams.

There was just a massive post (with charts) addressing on/off offensive and defensive ratings during KG's prime (and Duncan, Kobe, and Lebron).

Also, I remember in other threads, that you say offense > defense because one defender can't impact a team as much as an offensive player (Bill Russell is who you were referring to). Why are you holding KG to a different standard, as if anyone in history could have made Minny an upper echelon team defensively during the years he couldn't? That's not consistent.

First, pretty sure the conversation you're replying is about KG vs Magic.

Second, we don't have on/off numbers for Magic/Bird/Wilt or Hakeem. The importance of these numbers are rather dubious too consider the results we typically see(we're talking maybe 10 mpg a game of 2nd unit play compared to 38 mpg with the 1st unit). By default you're holding players like Magic/Bird to a standard they can't compete with since they have zero of these data to lean on.

[THKNKG]

Spoiler:

This is kinda where people lose me. Magic came in as a rookie with 18 ppg 60%TS 7.3 apg, and LA had the #1 offense, but the only reply is Kareem's name? You can't make the claim that Magic only had 6 Magic like years without backing that up.

As for Ricky Davis, if KG was some super defensive anchor one who expect Minny to not be so god awful with him anchoring things in his prime years. Show me some tangible evidence of KG's prime years being better than Magic's. Not just names of people on their respective teams.

There was just a massive post (with charts) addressing on/off offensive and defensive ratings during KG's prime (and Duncan, Kobe, and Lebron).

Also, I remember in other threads, that you say offense > defense because one defender can't impact a team as much as an offensive player (Bill Russell is who you were referring to). Why are you holding KG to a different standard, as if anyone in history could have made Minny an upper echelon team defensively during the years he couldn't? That's not consistent.

First, pretty sure the conversation you're replying is about KG vs Magic.

Second, we don't have on/off numbers for Magic/Bird/Wilt or Hakeem. The importance of these numbers are rather dubious too consider the results we typically see(we're talking maybe 10 mpg a game of 2nd unit play compared to 38 mpg with the 1st unit). By default you're holding players like Magic/Bird to a standard they can't compete with since they have zero of these data to lean on.

1st. I am replying to a particular expectation you have of him, which is that he somehow must be able to anchor elite defenses in Minny. It had no relevance to KG/Magic, but it does to that statement you made. I didn't just come at you out of the blue or anything.

2nd. We do have numbers for all of those players when they miss games (with/without), and they're even more drastic wrt KG. Someone has posted them before (though I don't remember where). Will try to find them later (though WOWY is readily available too).


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[Outside]

Question for those arguing for Wilt: skill wise, what was he better at than KG, besides scoring at the rim and rim defense?

LOL, as if those aren't two huge areas. But I'd say Wilt was the better passer and screener. He was definitely a better rebounder.

For passing, I'm not talking about the year he led the league in assists or that type of thing, but overall. He was very good passing out of the post and also as an outlet passer.

[dontcalltimeout]

This might be useful considering the questions about KG's post up/scoring ability.

Synergy tracks post ups including passes. It includes "all possessions that were derived from their post ups, including passes that led to immediate possession ending events." So any shot, foul, turnover or pass leading to a shot, foul, or turnover is included. I just included the most prolific guys posting up from 2005 - 2010, some guys ramp up do to it being early and their careers and others drop off (see Shaq). But still useful: