RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #6

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Re: RE: Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #6 

Post#201 » by Colbinii » Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:18 pm

dontcalltimeout wrote:This might be useful considering the questions about KG's post up/scoring ability.

Synergy tracks post ups including passes. It includes "all possessions that were derived from their post ups, including passes that led to immediate possession ending events." So any shot, foul, turnover or pass leading to a shot, foul, or turnover is included. I just included the most prolific guys posting up from 2005 - 2010, some guys ramp up do to it being early and their careers and others drop off (see Shaq). But still useful:

Image


Can you get numbers Kobe and Wade?

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Re: RE: Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #6 

Post#202 » by dontcalltimeout » Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:19 pm

Colbinii wrote:
Can you get numbers Kobe and Wade?

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On post ups or something else?
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #6 

Post#203 » by Colbinii » Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:22 pm

dontcalltimeout wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
Can you get numbers Kobe and Wade?

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On post ups or something else?

Post ups!

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #6 

Post#204 » by THKNKG » Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:27 pm

Colbinii wrote:
dontcalltimeout wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
Can you get numbers Kobe and Wade?

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On post ups or something else?

Post ups!

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Also, do you have access to the numbers from 00-05 for the players in the image you posted?
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #6 

Post#205 » by drza » Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:29 pm

micahclay wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
dontcalltimeout wrote:
On post ups or something else?

Post ups!

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Also, do you have access to the numbers from 00-05 for the players in the image you posted?


I'm pretty sure Synergy didn't exist until 2005, unfortunately. Though obviously, if he has another source, I'll shut my mouth and gladly read it
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #6 

Post#206 » by THKNKG » Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:30 pm

drza wrote:
micahclay wrote:
Colbinii wrote:Post ups!

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Also, do you have access to the numbers from 00-05 for the players in the image you posted?


I'm pretty sure Synergy didn't exist until 2005, unfortunately. Though obviously, if he has another source, I'll shut my mouth and gladly read it

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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #6 

Post#207 » by An Unbiased Fan » Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:33 pm

micahclay wrote:1st. I am replying to a particular expectation you have of him, which is that he somehow must be able to anchor elite defenses in Minny. It had no relevance to KG/Magic, but it does to that statement you made. I didn't just come at you out of the blue or anything.

2nd. We do have numbers for all of those players when they miss games (with/without), and they're even more drastic wrt KG. Someone has posted them before (though I don't remember where). Will try to find them later (though WOWY is readily available too).

1) I have an expectation of someone being called a GOAT level defender to produce decent defense at worse...yes. I'm very consistent with that thinking, and the correlation of a great defense to a great defensive anchor is very strong. The correlation of a great offense to a great offensive anchor even more so due to the impact of individual offense. Obviously support factors in too. This isn't a diss to KG, its just that you have to remember who we're comparing him to.

This is why I bring up players like Hakeem, who had poor support, yet still anchored quality defenses. What exactly is the impact of a player if they can't affect the team result? Isn't that why guys like Russell and Lebron are praised? Of the Top 20 or so possible major names you see floated around. KG lags near the bottom in this area. He had tremendous utility and definitely can make a case for most versatile player in history, but his impact was just that, one of utility on roster. An indispensable player you could plug everywhere, which is shown in +/- numbers(what those stats are actually for).

2) Games missed only tell you how deep a player's squad was, or how indispensable to the team system they were. The correlation of that kind of thing to impact on winning is nowhere to be found. Stats can be fun to look at, but they can lead you down rabbit holes.
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #6 

Post#208 » by An Unbiased Fan » Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:41 pm

*Post deleted* Nevemind, I think Dipper watched the games, but named it Synergy
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #6 

Post#209 » by colts18 » Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:47 pm

KG vs Kobe in On court rating. Simply how their team with them on the court:

Season KG Kobe
2000-01 3.3 6.4
2001-02 5.8 7
2002-03 6.1 3.8
2003-04 9.8 6.2
2004-05 1.7 -2.8
2005-06 0.6 4.6
2006-07 -0.5 1.1
2007-08 16.4 9
2008-09 14.3 11
2009-10 7.7 8.6
2010-11 13 8.2
2011-12 7.5 3
2012-13 2.5 2.3
2013-14 -1.6 -9.6
2014-15 -1.1 -11.8
2015-16 5.6 -15.6
Career 5.8 3.8


KG ahead of Kobe despite Kobe playing with better teammates. KG's teams played better in 11 out of 16 seasons
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #6 

Post#210 » by dontcalltimeout » Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:53 pm

Colbinii wrote:
dontcalltimeout wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
Can you get numbers Kobe and Wade?

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On post ups or something else?

Post ups!

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Added Kobe and Wade at the bottom and i added more yrs too. Dirk passes KG when you add more years, he really was ridiculous in 2011.

Image
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #6 

Post#211 » by dontcalltimeout » Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:54 pm

drza wrote:
micahclay wrote:
Colbinii wrote:Post ups!

Sent from my SM-G920P using RealGM mobile app


Also, do you have access to the numbers from 00-05 for the players in the image you posted?


I'm pretty sure Synergy didn't exist until 2005, unfortunately. Though obviously, if he has another source, I'll shut my mouth and gladly read it


Idk if it existed, but that's as far as their data goes.
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #6 

Post#212 » by Colbinii » Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:56 pm

dontcalltimeout wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
dontcalltimeout wrote:
On post ups or something else?

Post ups!

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Added Kobe and Wade at the bottom and i added more yrs too. Dirk passes KG when you add more years, he really was ridiculous in 2011.

Image


Thanks. That correlates well with the small data I posted on Dirks midrange shooting in my KG post. Dirk "peaked" from 08-11"

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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #6 

Post#213 » by Dr Positivity » Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:14 pm

Just to reiterate again, when it comes to why KG couldn’t contend with TWolves, it’s not just about lacking other all-star talent. KG may have contended or a won a title, if his supporting cast excelled at role player things like being defenders who spaced the floor and passed, or whatever. But this wasn’t the way the Wolves are built. Not only are they poor enough on defense that having KG can only get them to average defensive seasons, but offensively KG’s best teammates basically always had the same strength, midrange shooting.

Wally Z - Wally was a great 3pt shooter who would be a better fit for modern game offensively. In 02 and 03, his best KG/Flip Wolves seasons, his 3pt volume is underused. He hits 45.5% from 3 but takes 2.3 3pt attempts, vs 4.5 16 to <3pt attempts on 44% and 2.5 10-16 ft attempts on 51%. In 03 he takes 2.8 3PA on 42% (3pt) to 5.3 16 to <3 attempts (47%) and 2.5 10-16 attempts (45%). He averaged a pretty weak FTA rate (3.3 FTA both seasons)

Sam Cassell - Cassell in 04 takes 2.3 3PA (.398 3P) and gets to the line 4.1 times. He is a good passer at 7.3 assists per game but main thing Cassell is known for is having one of the deadliest midrange games probably ever for his position, especially when he's in mid 30s and is in craftiness over athleticism mode. He takes 6.9 shots from 16 to < 3pt on 46%, 4.9 shots from 10-16 ft on 49%.

Terrell Brandon - Brandon had 17/9 and 16/7.5 seasons for Wolves in 01 and 02. You may have guessed it, but Brandon was a player who shot well from 3 (.402 3P in 00, .363 3P in 01) but didn’t take a lot of them (1.9 attempts in 00, 1.2 in 01), didn’t get to the line a lot (2.9 FTA/40) but bombed away from midrange. In 01 he takes 7.1 shots from 16<3pt and makes 45%, along with 2.9 attempts on 39% from 10-16.

Latrell Sprewell - Sprewell with Cassell scoring 17ppg is part of KG’s good supporting cast year. Sprewell neither shoots 3s (.33 on 3.6 3PA) or gets to the line that well (3.6 FTA), while he takes 5.5 16<3pt shots on 40%, and 4 10-16 shots on 43%.

Chauncey Billups - The showing signs of breaking out Billups (12/5.5) breaks the trend by actually taking more 3s than midrange. He takes 3.8 3PA on 39%, to 3.0 16<3pt attempts on 41% and 0.8 10-16 attempts on 43%. Billups does only get to the line 2.9 times.

Troy Hudson - He put up 14/6 in 03, he shot 36.5% from 3 on 3.4 attempts and got to the line 2.9 FTA. He shot 44% from 16-<3pt on 5.1 attempts and on 41% from 10-16 feet on 1.1 attempts

When you add in Garnett being a big midrange shot player, the Flip era TWolves are almost as obsessed with midrange shots as the Morey era Rockets have been with 3s. Their typical KG partner was a perimeter player who shot around 2 3s on 40%, like 7 or 8 10 -23 ft 2pt shots on 45%, and got to the line 2 or 3 times. Knowing what we do know about midrange shots, isn’t it obvious why that was doomed to fail? They went all in on the wrong hand. For having a team full of great 3pt shooters, their ranks in 3PAr are brutal. In 01 they rank 26th in 3PAr, in 02 they rank 22nd in 03 they ranked 28th, in 04 27th, in 05 21st.

It’s not that the midrange shots were hurting the Timberwolves. Players like Cassell and Wally were hitting them at a high rate that’s mostly foreign to today’s game. You can make the case that both fear of the midrange shots and these players ability to hit 3s, caused effective spacing for the Wolves. The Wolves had good ORTGs during these years. For me it’s more the opportunity cost of what they gave up in order to get midrange shooters. They routinely had supporting casts that were awful on defense and didn’t have guards that got to the line/FT line at a high rate. Their bench was horrendous. They traded other team strengths just so they could hit long 2s at 45% which is NOT a good trade, especially for a team already starting with scarce assets after Joe Smith punishment and KG's contract
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #6 

Post#214 » by rebirthoftheM » Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:32 pm

Does anyone know why the fluctuation in KGs defensive indicators post 04 occurred? It seems bizarre and although someone spoke 07, what about 06 and 05? Why is it not pretty in 05? why is the separation so tiny in 06? Why didn suddently spike in 07? Is it reflective of his effort? I think this is the only missing inquiry about KGs D.

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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #6 

Post#215 » by An Unbiased Fan » Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:34 pm

Dr Positivity wrote:Just to reiterate again, when it comes to why KG couldn’t contend with TWolves, it’s not just about lacking other all-star talent. KG may have contended or a won a title, if his supporting cast excelled at role player things like being defenders who spaced the floor and passed, or whatever. But this wasn’t the way the Wolves are built. Not only are they poor enough on defense that having KG can only get them to average defensive seasons, but offensively KG’s best teammates basically always had the same strength, midrange shooting.
Spoiler:
Wally Z - Wally was a great 3pt shooter who would be a better fit for modern game offensively. In 02 and 03, his best KG/Flip Wolves seasons, his 3pt volume is underused. He hits 45.5% from 3 but takes 2.3 3pt attempts, vs 4.5 16 to <3pt attempts on 44% and 2.5 10-16 ft attempts on 51%. In 03 he takes 2.8 3PA on 42% (3pt) to 5.3 16 to <3 attempts (47%) and 2.5 10-16 attempts (45%). He averaged a pretty weak FTA rate (3.3 FTA both seasons)

Sam Cassell - Cassell in 04 takes 2.3 3PA (.398 3P) and gets to the line 4.1 times. He is a good passer at 7.3 assists per game but main thing Cassell is known for is having one of the deadliest midrange games probably ever for his position, especially when he's in mid 30s and is in craftiness over athleticism mode. He takes 6.9 shots from 16 to < 3pt on 46%, 4.9 shots from 10-16 ft on 49%.

Terrell Brandon - Brandon had 17/9 and 16/7.5 seasons for Wolves in 01 and 02. You may have guessed it, but Brandon was a player who shot well from 3 (.402 3P in 00, .363 3P in 01) but didn’t take a lot of them (1.9 attempts in 00, 1.2 in 01), didn’t get to the line a lot (2.9 FTA/40) but bombed away from midrange. In 01 he takes 7.1 shots from 16<3pt and makes 45%, along with 2.9 attempts on 39% from 10-16.

Latrell Sprewell - Sprewell with Cassell scoring 17ppg is part of KG’s good supporting cast year. Sprewell neither shoots 3s (.33 on 3.6 3PA) or gets to the line that well (3.6 FTA), while he takes 5.5 16<3pt shots on 40%, and 4 10-16 shots on 43%.

Chauncey Billups - The showing signs of breaking out Billups (12/5.5) breaks the trend by actually taking more 3s than midrange. He takes 3.8 3PA on 39%, to 3.0 16<3pt attempts on 41% and 0.8 10-16 attempts on 43%. Billups does only get to the line 2.9 times.

Troy Hudson - He put up 14/6 in 03, he shot 36.5% from 3 on 3.4 attempts and got to the line 2.9 FTA. He shot 44% from 16-<3pt on 5.1 attempts and on 41% from 10-16 feet on 1.1 attempts

When you add in Garnett being a big midrange shot player, the Flip era TWolves are almost as obsessed with midrange shots as the Morey era Rockets have been with 3s. Their typical KG partner was a perimeter player who shot around 2 3s on 40%, like 7 or 8 10 -23 ft 2pt shots on 45%, and got to the line 2 or 3 times. Knowing what we do know about midrange shots, isn’t it obvious why that was doomed to fail? They went all in on the wrong hand. For having a team full of great 3pt shooters, their ranks in 3PAr are brutal. In 01 they rank 26th in 3PAr, in 02 they rank 22nd in 03 they ranked 28th, in 04 27th, in 05 21st.

It’s not that the midrange shots were hurting the Timberwolves. Players like Cassell and Wally were hitting them at a high rate that’s mostly foreign to today’s game. You can make the case that both fear of the midrange shots and these players ability to hit 3s, caused effective spacing for the Wolves. The Wolves had good ORTGs during these years. For me it’s more the opportunity cost of what they gave up in order to get midrange shooters. They routinely had supporting casts that were awful on defense and didn’t have guards that got to the line/FT line at a high rate. Their bench was horrendous. They traded other team strengths just so they could hit long 2s at 45% which is NOT a good trade.

You make some great observations about the strengths and weaknesses of those teams. KG's versatility was amazing, and I think we all were amazed at it over his career. The big problem for him impact wise though is that being a jack of all trades isn't more impact than being dominant. Basketball is more repetitive than any major sport. Shaq's ability to destroy teams over and over and over again in the paint simply had more impact than KG's versatility at being good at scoring, passing, and off-ball play. Kobe's ability to postup any guard, take them off the dribble, or hit a mid-range over and over and over again, was simply more dominant than what KG could produce on court. Defensively KG could guard all 5 positions, could help, and play man to man, but he couldn't close down the paint over and over and over again like TD or Hakeem.

Dominance > Utility. On a squad like Boston who had mutplie stars this was very impactful, but in Minny his utility couldn't lift his teams the same way dominance would. I criticize Lebron often, but this is where he really does look GOAT level(his problem is the lack of teammate utilization ironically).

What could Minny rely upon from KG game to game? A great overall game of versatile play, but not dominance the could use over and over and over again as an anchor to ride on.
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Re: RE: Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #6 

Post#216 » by Colbinii » Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:34 pm

rebirthoftheM wrote:Does anyone know why the fluctuation in KGs defensive indicators post 04 occurred? It seems bizarre and although someone spoke 07, what about 06 and 05? Why is it not pretty in 05? why is the separation so tiny in 06? Why didn suddently spike in 07? Is it reflective of his effort? I think this is the only missing inquiry about KGs D.

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Multitude of coaches is certainly one reason.

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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #6 

Post#217 » by Joao Saraiva » Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:37 pm

1st vote Wilt Chamberlain

Great peak, great prime and extended, a ton of longevity.

Wilt set a ton of records in the NBA, showed offensive and defensive impact. So for sure he was a great two way player, something some guys that have been voted don't have (like Magic). I understand Magic may have the edge on offense, but Wilt's defense is a ton more times more valuable than Magic's D in comparison. I mean, Wilt was a great offensive player himself.

Extended prime, and playing a ton of minutes on it. So that's the thing that gives Wilt longevity: he actually has more RS minutes played than... Tim Duncan! And more of them in his prime.

Longevity certainly makes me put Wilt over Shaq.

2nd vote - Shaquille O'Neal
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #6 

Post#218 » by Ambrose » Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:43 pm

dontcalltimeout wrote:This might be useful considering the questions about KG's post up/scoring ability.

Synergy tracks post ups including passes. It includes "all possessions that were derived from their post ups, including passes that led to immediate possession ending events." So any shot, foul, turnover or pass leading to a shot, foul, or turnover is included. I just included the most prolific guys posting up from 2005 - 2010, some guys ramp up do to it being early and their careers and others drop off (see Shaq). But still useful:

Image


Great stuff to look at. Not sure it's as pro-KG as it was meant out to be seeing how he had far less usage than most of his real contemporaries except Dirk but it's a really cool thing to see. Shaq's possession numbers are crazy. Even living in Minnesota I'm totally against this KG is a top 5-10 player ever movement that seems to be unbelievably strong here on realgm but the pro-KG guys have really brought it on this page.
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Re: RE: Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #6 

Post#219 » by Colbinii » Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:47 pm

Ambrose wrote:
dontcalltimeout wrote:This might be useful considering the questions about KG's post up/scoring ability.

Synergy tracks post ups including passes. It includes "all possessions that were derived from their post ups, including passes that led to immediate possession ending events." So any shot, foul, turnover or pass leading to a shot, foul, or turnover is included. I just included the most prolific guys posting up from 2005 - 2010, some guys ramp up do to it being early and their careers and others drop off (see Shaq). But still useful:

Image


Great stuff to look at. Not sure it's as pro-KG as it was meant out to be seeing how he had far less usage than most of his real contemporaries except Dirk but it's a really cool thing to see. Shaq's possession numbers are crazy. Even living in Minnesota I'm totally against this KG is a top 5-10 player ever movement that seems to be unbelievably strong here on realgm but the pro-KG guys have really brought it on this page.

Are you from the cities?

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Re: RE: Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #6 

Post#220 » by Ambrose » Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:56 pm

Colbinii wrote:
Ambrose wrote:
dontcalltimeout wrote:This might be useful considering the questions about KG's post up/scoring ability.

Synergy tracks post ups including passes. It includes "all possessions that were derived from their post ups, including passes that led to immediate possession ending events." So any shot, foul, turnover or pass leading to a shot, foul, or turnover is included. I just included the most prolific guys posting up from 2005 - 2010, some guys ramp up do to it being early and their careers and others drop off (see Shaq). But still useful:

Image


Great stuff to look at. Not sure it's as pro-KG as it was meant out to be seeing how he had far less usage than most of his real contemporaries except Dirk but it's a really cool thing to see. Shaq's possession numbers are crazy. Even living in Minnesota I'm totally against this KG is a top 5-10 player ever movement that seems to be unbelievably strong here on realgm but the pro-KG guys have really brought it on this page.

Are you from the cities?

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Sure am!
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