2017 Nets Offseason Thread II

[Mkdaman1818]

The big difference is that porter (or crabbe last year) wouldn't be a role player on our team if we signed him to a $20mm deal... we're paying that money with the expectation that under our coaches theyd blossom into a starter role. You can't look at crabbe on Portland as a measuring stick because they matched the offer sheet to make him a role player (since they already have Lillard and CJ). Marks isn't doing that, the teams that are matching are. Big difference.

Thats the point... your asking a role player to be a feature high salary franchise player. thats not a recipe for success.

My point though is that marks and the scouting staff believe that these guys can be more than role players. We're not paying for the player that Portland/Washington have, we're paying for what we think they can become in the hands of our coaches and system. Players aren't static in nature, they grow and develop and that's what we're looking at.

[Hello Brooklyn]

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Well there goes that idea.

[Prokorov]

The big difference is that porter (or crabbe last year) wouldn't be a role player on our team if we signed him to a $20mm deal... we're paying that money with the expectation that under our coaches theyd blossom into a starter role. You can't look at crabbe on Portland as a measuring stick because they matched the offer sheet to make him a role player (since they already have Lillard and CJ). Marks isn't doing that, the teams that are matching are. Big difference.

Thats the point... your asking a role player to be a feature high salary franchise player. thats not a recipe for success.

My point though is that marks and the scouting staff believe that these guys can be more than role players. We're not paying for the player that Portland/Washington have, we're paying for what we think they can become in the hands of our coaches and system. Players aren't static in nature, they grow and develop and that's what we're looking at.

If Marks thinks guys like Crabbe/Bazemore/KCP/Porterare feature franchise players then i have serious doubts about marks.

i hope he would have learned his lesson from crabbe/bazemore.

i get players improve. but rarely do you go from bench or role players to a star

[Prokorov]

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Well there goes that idea.

this is a good thing for us.

i think marks is also smart to make the offer and make them take on the high salary.

[Ror1997]

Like i just said. Those cap issues and flexibility problems is Marks problem. And He's willing to deal with it. Its not like marks doesn't know what He's getting himself into.

but its not just marks problem... thats like saying billy king trading away all our picks doesnt effect us and that was billy kings problem. if you are a nets fan things that effect the product on the floor should concern you i would think

And also, Like I said, if you trust Marks ability to find talent in the draft, then you in essence should trust his ability to find talent in FA. So if you're willing to have patience with Marks picks because you trust him, shouldn't you have patience with his ability to find talent in FA? Yeah. And especially given that the money involved is of no importance to you yourself. Yeah.

I dont believe this to be true either. when you draft someone their contract is set. I like porter, i like KCP. but you have to factor what they cost and how much that cost effects our future.

But no. You're saying that these contracts are top 5 worst in the league before they even play a game.

And I did see your posts about Marks F/A grades. You disagreed with them because....Of the money. Go figure.

Prok I agree with alot of the things you say, but you're about 5 years behind when it comes to contracts.

I'm really not. and id point to bazemore and crabbe and just signed last year as highly regretable by their current teams. Go back one year further... the lakers signed a role player (mozgov) to a big contract and they had to pay heavily to dump it. Look at Mahinmi as well.

Are their role players making big money? YES.

Do nearly every one of those teams regret those contracts just a year or so later? YES.

you cant just ignore the salary cap. or else you end up in the blazers situation (or worse if you dont have allstars liek lillard/CJ)

Okay, you aren't reading my posts at all. Please actually pay attention to what I'm typing.

1- its not like Billy King trading our draft picks. Billy king trading our draft picks means we missed out on Fultz (among other players). That was a nets problem. A bad contract just makes Marks job harder to do. Its him betting on himself. Its not comparable to missing out on what 5 first round picks?

2- "when you draft someone their contract is already set" WTF? I'm talking about Marks eye for talent and your response is their contract is already set? What?

3- and like I literally just told you an hour ago, you're saying the Hawks are regretting that Bazemore contract, but they aren't. You're wrong. Bazemore had a PER below 12 and D12 had a PER above 20. Yet Dwight Howard was the bad contract they regretted.

Mosgov? 30 years old.
Mahinmi? 30 years old.
D12? 31 years old.
Tyson Chandler? 34 years old

Theyre all bad contracts because of their age. An overpaid 25 year old kid isnt automatically a bad contract. Teams don't regret having young , improving, talented players. They regret paying 30 year old declining players 25 mil.


Bottom line: if you're overpaid, but still improving as a players you're not a bad contract. If you're overpaid and declining you're a bad contract.
It's not the salary. Its the room to improve "

[Mkdaman1818]

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Well there goes that idea.

this is a good thing for us.

i think marks is also smart to make the offer and make them take on the high salary.

Yeah we have nothing to lose making the offer, assuming that we make the offer that marks can live with

[Mkdaman1818]

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[Paradise]

I'd love to add Amir Johnson. Very realistic target.


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[Mkdaman1818]

I'd love to get ingles too, as long as it's not a ridiculous overpay

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[3pt_chucker]

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Much prefer Reddick over OPJ. I actually prefer we not spend big money on either.

Hell no to KCP. I can'rt understand the rartional behind that move. His number scream: a contract you want to get rid of in 1yr.

[Ror1997]

Thats the point... your asking a role player to be a feature high salary franchise player. thats not a recipe for success.

My point though is that marks and the scouting staff believe that these guys can be more than role players. We're not paying for the player that Portland/Washington have, we're paying for what we think they can become in the hands of our coaches and system. Players aren't static in nature, they grow and develop and that's what we're looking at.

If Marks thinks guys like Crabbe/Bazemore/KCP/Porterare feature franchise players then i have serious doubts about marks.

i hope he would have learned his lesson from crabbe/bazemore.

i get players improve. but rarely do you go from bench or role players to a star

And that's why you see teams like the Nets and Sixer's go after these players. Very little teams can offer the players the opportunity they need. Crabbe is never going to break out on the blazers. The Blazers aren't gonna tell CJ and Dame to dial it back for a year so Crabbe can catch up to their level. No. But the Sixer's and Nets would because they were doing so already. And at the end of the year, you have an improved product.

And Prok, if you don't believe that. Just look at Tyler Johnson. Wade left, and TJ found himself in a role similar to what he would've had in BK.

So Crabbe got matched, returned to his same role, and didn't break out. TJ got matched, was given a bigger role, and broke out. Now Prok, let me ask you this. Do you think its a coincidence that you view Crabbe as bullet dodged, but not TJ?

I rest my case.

[Prokorov]

Okay, you aren't reading my posts at all. Please actually pay attention to what I'm typing.

1- its not like Billy King trading our draft picks. Billy king trading our draft picks means we missed out on Fultz (among other players). That was a nets problem. A bad contract just makes Marks job harder to do. Its him betting on himself. Its not comparable to missing out on what 5 first round picks?

It is similar to King trading our draft picks. Obviously the King trade will have far heavier ramifications but you imply that its "just money" and doesnt have an effect on our ability to build our team, which it 100% does. We wouldnt be able to take on salary for assets, we couldnt sign better free agents down the road who might have interest. It isnt prokorov pays the bills and thats that. this is a salary cap league. if you give huge salary to role players it will effect you down the line.

2- "when you draft someone their contract is already set" WTF? I'm talking about Marks eye for talent and your response is their contract is already set? What?

I think it is you who arent reading my post and you who needs to pay attention. You said Marks signing free agents is the same as him drafting players... but it 100% is not the same. when you draft someone they are cost controlled for several years. if they dont develop into more then a role player they are taking up a small piece of your cap.

if you sign a free agent to a huge contract, and they dont develop into more then a role player, then you are in trouble because that player is taking up huge cap and producing little. and then you dont have the cap space to add the talent needed to make up for it. No one is saying marks cant identify talent... its his evaluation of the cap that is in question

3- and like I literally just told you an hour ago, you're saying the Hawks are regretting that Bazemore contract, but they aren't. You're wrong. Bazemore had a PER below 12 and D12 had a PER above 20. Yet Dwight Howard was the bad contract they regretted.

They trade to trade bazemore at the deadline and had no takers. they regret both contracts... and for dwight it was more attitiude then play

Mosgov? 30 years old.
Mahinmi? 30 years old.
D12? 31 years old.
Tyson Chandler? 34 years old

Crabbe? Bazemore? Tobias harris? Fournier?

Theyre all bad contracts because of their age. An overpaid 25 year old kid isnt automatically a bad contract. Teams don't regret having young , improving, talented players. They regret paying 30 year old declining players 25 mil.

sure they do. blazers regret crabbe. hawks regret bazemore. detroit regrets harris.

Bottom line: if you're overpaid, but still improving as a players you're not a bad contract. If you're overpaid and declining you're a bad contract.
It's not the salary. Its the room to improve "

if you are overpaid and are a role player you are a bad contract that causes long term cap issues.

Again... what happens when RHJ and Russell need contracts after next season? do you pay them or let them walk? Levert after that?

are you ok with being capped out and locked into Dlo/levert/rhj/porter? if not who do you let walk?

[DarkXaero]

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Well there goes that idea.

That's nothing new, it has been their stance the entire time.

[imanshar]

I would love it if we can get Igoudala. He is the prefect fit for us, I would give him 3 years max with third year as non-guaranteed.

[Vae Victus]

At this point my ideal Free Agency would prolly run like this.

Sign Olynyk 3 years 30 mil 3rd yea Team Option

Sign Gallinari 2 years 40 mil 2nd year player option

Retain Acy for the min

With these moves we add ALOT of 3pt shooting at the 3/4/5 spots. Gallinari can shift to the 3 at times and Olynyk can play smallball stretch 5, so there's alot of positional versatility.

C - Mozgov, Olynyk, Acy, JHam (Allen to DLeague to get gobs of PT and hopefully a mid season call up when the roster thins)
PF- Gallinari, RHJ, Booker
SF- Levert, Harris
SG- DLo, SKil, Whitehead
PG- Lin, Dimwiddie

How i'd break the mins down
C - 24 Mozgov, 24 Oly
PF- 16 Gallo, 24 RHJ, 8 Booker
SF- 28 Levert, 12 Gallo, 8 Harris
SG- 28 DLo, 16 Skil, 4 Whitehead
PG- 28 Lin, 16 Dim, 4 Whitehead

Literally everyone except Mozgov can play and defend multiple position. Any injury to any starter will find a ready quality replacement and the bench will remain strong as all hell.

Also lots of trade pieces to work with. Booker and JHam are expiring and could be packaged for something. SKil, Harris, and RHJ are dirt cheap and can outplay their contracts and thus be used as good sweetener in part of the aforementioned package. With the additions Booker and JHam are pretty much pushed out of the rotation and thus should be traded ASAP before their values drop even more. Booker might have some value left, JHam is pretty much useless.

[Prokorov]

I would love it if we can get Igoudala. He is the prefect fit for us, I would give him 3 years max with third year as non-guaranteed.

3 years max? perfect fit?

I love him as a mentor but 3 years max for a role player? no freaking way. i dont mind bringing in an older guy if he bring an elite skill (like reddick with shooting) bu 3/90 for iggy?

[Prokorov]

At this point my ideal Free Agency would prolly run like this.

Sign Olynyk 3 years 30 mil 3rd yea Team Option

Sign Gallinari 2 years 40 mil 2nd year player option

Retain Acy for the min

With these moves we add ALOT of 3pt shooting at the 3/4/5 spots. Gallinari can shift to the 3 at times and Olynyk can play smallball stretch 5, so there's alot of positional versatility.

C - Mozgov, Olynyk, Acy, JHam (Allen to DLeague to get gobs of PT and hopefully a mid season call up when the roster thins)
PF- Gallinari, RHJ, Booker
SF- Levert, Harris
SG- DLo, SKil, Whitehead
PG- Lin, Dimwiddie

How i'd break the mins down
C - 24 Mozgov, 24 Oly
PF- 16 Gallo, 24 RHJ, 8 Booker
SF- 28 Levert, 12 Gallo, 8 Harris
SG- 28 DLo, 16 Skil, 4 Whitehead
PG- 28 Lin, 16 Dim, 4 Whitehead

Literally everyone except Mozgov can play and defend multiple position. Any injury to any starter will find a ready quality replacement and the bench will remain strong as all hell.

Also lots of trade pieces to work with. Booker and JHam are expiring and could be packaged for something. SKil, Harris, and RHJ are dirt cheap and can outplay their contracts and thus be used as good sweetener in part of the aforementioned package. With the additions Booker and JHam are pretty much pushed out of the rotation and thus should be traded ASAP before their values drop even more. Booker might have some value left, JHam is pretty much useless.

i like the olynk singing but 3/30 seems a bit low for a 26 year old stretch floor who is adequete on D and can put it on the floor. but id take him at 3/45 as well so not really an issue.

I''d only take Gallo at 2/40 if the second year is a team option. otherwise hard pass. would prefer reddick or just be done with kelly and acy

sending Allen to the dleague is a crazy move to me. why are we sending our #1 pick and a guy who needs development down to play veterans on a team where winning doesnt matter?

i mean im fine with him spending some time down there. but he should get 55-65 games at 15 mpg. he needs development and the best way to do that is vs live nba competition in meaningful minutes

[Ror1997]

I'm not arguing anymore every argument always ends the same and you never read posts. Not worth it.

[Prokorov]

I'm not arguing anymore every argument always ends the same and you never read posts. Not worth it.

Not only did I read your posts, i quoted them item by item and responded in detail.

I cant really do much if you are going to ignore that there is a salary cap in the NBA and the contract you give out effect that. especially when you pay max money for role players or non-allstars.

You also just ignore that while we would still have some cap space after signing porter, that space has a short expiration date since russell/levert/RHJ will need extensions in the next couple years and will drastically eat into that cap room.

You need to project these things out. and anytime you pay someone 25-30% of your cap they HAVE to be a fringe allstar at worst or your going to struggle to compete down the road.

[Hello Brooklyn]

I have absolutely no interest in Iggy.

He preforms well in the playoffs but is no longer capable of consistently playing at a high level during the regular season.

He also had back issues and I think a lot of his problems are hidden by the fact that hes on a great team.

I'm not overpaying him to play a "mentor role" in Brooklyn. There are plenty of veterans who can do that that don't cost an arm and a leg.