2017 Nets Offseason Thread II

[ChokeFasncists]

Thinking about it some more, I'd rather we not max out Porter nor KCP right now. Let's try to get another culture veteran type guy, or maybe we can be last year's Miami Heat, and sign a guy like Dion Waiters for the minimum because teams' salary caps dried up eventually.

At the end of the day, our number one goal should be a Nets championship. Most would believe we've already obtained an important part of the championship formula, the culture, coaching team, and management. Fortunately, none of these things count against the cap but do have a trickle down effect on maximizing team salary for team success.

Ideally, I'd like our salary structure to follow the Spurs' as well. Have your highly paid scouting team find gems in the later rounds (Levert, Whitehead, Allen?), have your highly paid management team avoid overpaying older players for past all-star results, use your saved money to absorb salary dumps while getting solid development players/assets (D'Lo/Wizards 2017 pick).

End up paying lower than average NBA team salary while getting above average NBA results and eventually have enough to contend, thanks your highly paid coaching staff and development team.

Coincidentally, when San Antonio did go out and sign a star to a max (Aldridge), they experienced heavily diminished returns. Thankfully we don't have a Melo or Love on our radar, but I'm dreading that signing Porter or moreso KCP will result in an overpay in the wrong category.

For this upcoming season, I'd like to focus on continuing to build the team culture, improve on last season's win total (should not be hard), and further showcase the Atkinson's motion offense. Adding another Booker type deal (2 yrs $10M per to a current bench guy showing signs of life) is fine with me if that's all we end up doing this off-season when the dust settles.

One question the Marksman needs to ask is, is KCP/Porter better than LVJ?

[vincecarter4pres]

Thinking about it some more, I'd rather we not max out Porter nor KCP right now. Let's try to get another culture veteran type guy, or maybe we can be last year's Miami Heat, and sign a guy like Dion Waiters for the minimum because teams' salary caps dried up eventually.

At the end of the day, our number one goal should be a Nets championship. Most would believe we've already obtained an important part of the championship formula, the culture, coaching team, and management. Fortunately, none of these things count against the cap but do have a trickle down effect on maximizing team salary for team success.

Ideally, I'd like our salary structure to follow the Spurs' as well. Have your highly paid scouting team find gems in the later rounds (Levert, Whitehead, Allen?), have your highly paid management team avoid overpaying older players for past all-star results, use your saved money to absorb salary dumps while getting solid development players/assets (D'Lo/Wizards 2017 pick).

End up paying lower than average NBA team salary while getting above average NBA results and eventually have enough to contend, thanks your highly paid coaching staff and development team.

Coincidentally, when San Antonio did go out and sign a star to a max (Aldridge), they experienced heavily diminished returns. Thankfully we don't have a Melo or Love on our radar, but I'm dreading that signing Porter or moreso KCP will result in an overpay in the wrong category.

For this upcoming season, I'd like to focus on continuing to build the team culture, improve on last season's win total (should not be hard), and further showcase the Atkinson's motion offense. Adding another Booker type deal (2 yrs $10M per to a current bench guy showing signs of life) is fine with me if that's all we end up doing this off-season when the dust settles.

I agree with this as well and that's why I'd be fine with one value signing for smaller money($10 to $15 a year) and lesser years(3 maximum) and for the most part keep it moving from within, while as you say, looking for more asset deals.

Sign JaMychal Green, or THJ, or Gallo, as long as it's after the money's dried up and they come at super reasonable deals.

A one year for $25 mill for Gallo. Or a 2 year for $15 a year.

Green at $15 mill a year for only 3 years.

THJ around the same.

George Hill on a 2 year for $40 mill if he'd come off the bench.

But only one of these guys. Then save every other last dime of that cap.

[TheBrooklynKidd]

How would you know? I just don't get that they are so many bad bball minds here, at least the regulars right now (NS doesn't count). If you're talking about the individual offensive players, then you might have a point, but overall? That's pretty absurd, not even close.


Just cuz a certain player played a certain position in college, doesn't he will play that in the NBA. Just cuz they are capable of being primary ball handlers and are great passers doesn't mean they will play PG.

I don't know what you watched last season. JHar started at SF and did well. When Kenny wanted to start LVJ, he started Foye with him. JHar is more suitable to play SF cuz he's buff and not very fast.

It's funny cause the only bad ball minds are the Lin fans who suffer from the delusion that he's some sort of elite player that's unrivaled be others.

While it is true that there exist people like that but to say they are the only ones would be flat wrong.

They truly are neck and neck at this point and a small leap by Russell will make him without a doubt the better player.

Anyone who thinks that would have a bad bball mind or is ignorant. I can't believe I have to explain it but here we go.

First of all, offensive game is only a small part of the game. They might be not far in that department, Lin is a much better player on the other side of the court. (I hope I don't have to explain that to you?) Lin is much better off the court (this as well?). He provides much better on court leadership and he makes his teammates better, something DRuss has yet to show capable of. Lin has done playoffs heroics while DRuss has never sniffed it. When the Lakers wanted to tank, they benched Lin; later on, they'd play DRuss big minutes and got the picks.

Many people think Russell is better you could tell by all the comments about how he was the best player on the team after the trade.

I'm sorry, I've basically read every single post after the trade and there are only a meager amount of posts that said that. Many people think that several years down the road he could become the better player, that's pretty reasonable.

And you must have just been watching Lin the whole time or something because LeVert is very capable of being a primary ball handler and showed it last season.

Read more carefully? I said, "just cuz he is capable of being a primary ball handler doesn't mean he will be the PG."

Also your quote about Harris is just completely wrong. He started 11 games, struggled to get consistent minutes all year and he's a fringe NBA player who only played 5 games in 2015. He's also unathletic, 6'6 with short arms and has no place playing small forward. In fact you mentioning Joe Harris as a small forward further proves the very well known point that the Nets lacked an actual small forward on last years roster. That's why Sean marks said that that was the position that he wanted to address the most over the offseason.

I'm sorry, your opinion would directly contradict Kenny's. I do believe that Kenny has a much better bball mind than you do and I happen to agree with him. He started JHar at SF with relatively good results. Unfortunately he was out for the season with an injury. He is surely not a very good player, but he's no worse than Foye. I'm not sure you understand what I was saying. The point is, Kenny could have started JHar at SF and LVJ at SG but he elected to go with Foye at SG and LVJ at SF. You could certainly say that Kenny is completely wrong but it wouldn't mean much. Small forward is surely a position of need but it wouldn't be cuz LVJ isn't suitable to play there. Positions are more fluid now. RHJ wasn't "an actual" PF but he is one now. LVJ wasn't "an actual" SF but he is one now. Again, one would do well to keep in mind that the league is going smaller at this moment, or towards the interchangeable middle.

The offensive part of the game is way more important for a PG than defense and Russell is better offensively than Lin.

How do you know this are you Kenny? Do you know him personally? Please give me a break everything you say is designed to benefit Jeremy Lin while everything I say is meant to benefit the team as a whole.

And Kenny didn't start Harris at Sf because he isn't a sf and he is incapable of guarding the position. He by no means played well there. That's why he played inconsistent minutes all season and you fail to realize that Harris could've started at SG too but Kenny decided to start Randy freaking foye over him. Why? Because Harris is TRASH.

I'm pretty sure marks knows Kenny better than you do and they are on the record saying that they see LeVert as a SG and that sf is the position they need to upgrade most (meaning they want to move LeVert to shooting guard) seriously look it up. They're also on record saying that the 4 is Rondaes natural position. Also it's always ideal to have a size advantage at your position, which LeVert has at SG but does not at small forward.

I understand that these ideas threaten your favorite players place on the team but I couldn't care less about him.

I honestly hope that Lin plays amazing this season.
But only so that he can raise his trade value and we can flip him for good value and move forward with our backcourt of the future.

But clearly you only care about what's best for Lin not the teams future.

[Prokorov]

Usually several defensive wings get drafted into the league every year.
In three years, we might find out Jaylen Brown from Celtics and Justise Winslow from the heat and many others grow into a better defender than RHJ.

Brown and Winslow had the benefit of coming into teams with a defensive minded big man anchoring the defense. RHJ is better than Winslow already.

We'll see how he fares alongside Mozgov and Allen. His first season playing next to defensive oriented bigs that can cover the PnR and block shots. RHJ fits on a team that plays active perimeter defense with a big that can be the second line of the defense.

Lopez has never been capable of that consistently. That affects everybody else as well.


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Celtics don't have any defensive minded big man, their defense relies heavily on their wings.
Although Heat has Whiteside, they still relies big on their wings, their wings rotation are improtant for them, especially in their playoff series one season ago.
RHJ isn't better than Winslow.
Mozgov isn't a good PnR defender...

horford is a good defender.

not only is RHJ better then winslow defensively, it is by a pretty large margin...

Winslow:
+0.16 DRPM
+0.39 DRAPM
1.07 PPP allowed
0.8 DWS
+1.2 DBPM
1.4 steals
0.3 blocks

RHJ
1.78 DRPM
2.02 DRAPM
1.05 PPP allowed
2.2 DWS
+1.9 DBPM
1.1 steals
0.6 blocks

RHJ can also gaurd 1 through 4.

he is also a worse offensive player then RHJ fo what that is worth

[antique0o0]

i dont think that factors in at all. defense translates more then any other skill from good team to bad team from regular season to playoffs. Also, the other elite defenders from playoff teams are locked up, older, or worse.

Draymond green, jimmy butler, paul george - unavailable or locked up.

Danny green, tony allen - older

Andre roberson - worse

other then injury there is simply nothing to prevent a 15-20M offer from RHJ.

Usually several defensive wings get drafted into the league every year.
In three years, we might find out Jaylen Brown from Celtics and Justise Winslow from the heat and many others grow into a better defender than RHJ.

there are good defenders, and then there are elite defenders.

there are few elite defenders, especially guys good enough to defend SG, SF, and PF.

Tony Allen, Kawai, Draymond green. Kidd-gilchrist, george.

you see one of those guys every 5 years... maybe 10. and typically they are unattainable because in addition to being a great defender they are also great on offense (kawai, george).

i mean there are the sefolosha's, bradleys, corey brewers... those guys are really good... but they really just gaurd 1 or 2 spots and not at the level RHJ does.

Tony Allen, Kawai, Draymond green. Kidd-gilchrist, and george, are not only elite defender. Don't underestimate Tony Allen and Dray Green's offensive impact on their team (except Kidd-gilchrist). I don't see RHJ reach their offensive level in three years.

And also, I don't really know Sefolosha and Brewers' game, but, IMO, defensively, RHJ is not on Bradley's level.

[Prokorov]

Brown and Winslow had the benefit of coming into teams with a defensive minded big man anchoring the defense. RHJ is better than Winslow already.

We'll see how he fares alongside Mozgov and Allen. His first season playing next to defensive oriented bigs that can cover the PnR and block shots. RHJ fits on a team that plays active perimeter defense with a big that can be the second line of the defense.

Lopez has never been capable of that consistently. That affects everybody else as well.


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Celtics don't have any defensive minded big man, their defense relies heavily on their wings.
Although Heat has Whiteside, they still relies big on their wings, their wings rotation are improtant for them, especially in their playoff series one season ago.
RHJ isn't better than Winslow.
Mozgov isn't a good PnR defender...

Winslow is just horrible offensively. Why can't we value our homegrown guys? The grass is not greener elsewhere all the time.

RHJ - 8/5/2 on 43% FG / 51.7 TS% / 13.7 PER / 75% FTs

Per 36 - 13 PTS, 9 REBS, 3 ASTs

Winslow - 10/5/3 on 35% FG / 39.9 TS% / 8.5 PER / 61% FTs

Per 36 - 11 PTS, 5 REBS, 3 ASTs


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winslow also shoots it worse from three, gets to the FT less, is a worse defender, and has worse on/off stats

[antique0o0]

Brown and Winslow had the benefit of coming into teams with a defensive minded big man anchoring the defense. RHJ is better than Winslow already.

We'll see how he fares alongside Mozgov and Allen. His first season playing next to defensive oriented bigs that can cover the PnR and block shots. RHJ fits on a team that plays active perimeter defense with a big that can be the second line of the defense.

Lopez has never been capable of that consistently. That affects everybody else as well.


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Celtics don't have any defensive minded big man, their defense relies heavily on their wings.
Although Heat has Whiteside, they still relies big on their wings, their wings rotation are improtant for them, especially in their playoff series one season ago.
RHJ isn't better than Winslow.
Mozgov isn't a good PnR defender...

horford is a good defender.

not only is RHJ better then winslow defensively, it is by a pretty large margin...

Winslow:
+0.16 DRPM
+0.39 DRAPM
1.07 PPP allowed
0.8 DWS
+1.2 DBPM
1.4 steals
0.3 blocks

RHJ
1.78 DRPM
2.02 DRAPM
1.05 PPP allowed
2.2 DWS
+1.9 DBPM
1.1 steals
0.6 blocks

RHJ can also gaurd 1 through 4.

he is also a worse offensive player then RHJ fo what that is worth

Horford is a smart defender. He's not young any more and he's short for 5. I'd say he's an average defender. But he plays the 5, which is bad for the Celtics defense.

I don't trust the evaluation based solely on stats.

[ChokeFasncists]

I'm sorry, your opinion would directly contradict Kenny's. I do believe that Kenny has a much better bball mind than you do and I happen to agree with him. He started JHar at SF with relatively good results. Unfortunately he was out for the season with an injury. He is surely not a very good player, but he's no worse than Foye. I'm not sure you understand what I was saying. The point is, Kenny could have started JHar at SF and LVJ at SG but he elected to go with Foye at SG and LVJ at SF. You could certainly say that Kenny is completely wrong but it wouldn't mean much. Small forward is surely a position of need but it wouldn't be cuz LVJ isn't suitable to play there. Positions are more fluid now. RHJ wasn't "an actual" PF but he is one now. LVJ wasn't "an actual" SF but he is one now. Again, one would do well to keep in mind that the league is going smaller at this moment, or towards the interchangeable middle.

i think the idea as im sure we've all heard several times is they want to play positionless basket ball 1 through 4...

I think levert CAN 100% play small forward. but i think long term he is better suited at SG because of how well he handles the ball and passes.

Well, so can LVJ and the Greek Freak.

issue is, if levert plays SF... can he handle PFs? can the SG(russell) handle small forwards?

I'm sure the 6'5 Russell would do fine against most SFs. LVJ can guard LBJ, that means he can guard most PFs. If there's mismatches, what do you do?

if you put levert at SG he can handle SF as well. if you get someone like porter he can gaurd SF and PF. that works a bit better

Well, the thing goes both ways. They would be disadvantaged against good bigger players but then would be advantaged on the other end. And they would be able to stop the smaller teams better.

OTOH, by no means am I saying that LVJ will solely be an SF. I'm just saying he can and shouldn't be expected to move "back" to the SG position. IMO Kenny's doing what he's doing with RHJ, getting them comfortable at PF for RHJ and SF for LVJ and later on could be switched fluidly.

[Prokorov]

Usually several defensive wings get drafted into the league every year.
In three years, we might find out Jaylen Brown from Celtics and Justise Winslow from the heat and many others grow into a better defender than RHJ.

there are good defenders, and then there are elite defenders.

there are few elite defenders, especially guys good enough to defend SG, SF, and PF.

Tony Allen, Kawai, Draymond green. Kidd-gilchrist, george.

you see one of those guys every 5 years... maybe 10. and typically they are unattainable because in addition to being a great defender they are also great on offense (kawai, george).

i mean there are the sefolosha's, bradleys, corey brewers... those guys are really good... but they really just gaurd 1 or 2 spots and not at the level RHJ does.

Tony Allen, Kawai, Draymond green. Kidd-gilchrist, and george, are not only elite defender. Don't underestimate Tony Allen and Dray Green's offensive impact on their team (except Kidd-gilchrist). I don't see RHJ reach their offensive level in three years.

And also, I don't really know Sefolosha and Brewers' game, but, IMO, defensively, RHJ is not on Bradley's level.

Draymond green, george and Kawai are all-nba players. they will get super-max deals.

RHJ is already better then tony allen on offense. tony allen is an awful offensive player.

allen:
9 points per game
27.8% from three
49.2 TS%
61% FT%

Bradley is a solid defender, but grades out jsut above nuetral and struggles on bigger players. he is more a PG/SG then a SG/SF.

Bradley is also going to get a huge deal next season.

[Curns13]

Usually several defensive wings get drafted into the league every year.
In three years, we might find out Jaylen Brown from Celtics and Justise Winslow from the heat and many others grow into a better defender than RHJ.

Brown and Winslow had the benefit of coming into teams with a defensive minded big man anchoring the defense. RHJ is better than Winslow already.

We'll see how he fares alongside Mozgov and Allen. His first season playing next to defensive oriented bigs that can cover the PnR and block shots. RHJ fits on a team that plays active perimeter defense with a big that can be the second line of the defense.

Lopez has never been capable of that consistently. That affects everybody else as well.


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Celtics don't have any defensive minded big man, their defense relies heavily on their wings.
Although Heat has Whiteside, they still relies big on their wings, their wings rotation are improtant for them, especially in their playoff series one season ago.
RHJ isn't better than Winslow.
Mozgov isn't a good PnR defender...

By what metric is Winslow better than RHJ? Through roughly 100 games each, RHJ had a DBPM of 2.1, Winslow has 1.5. Winslow played 18 games last year and had a PER of 8.2 (8.4 in his rookie year). RHJ has a 13.8 PER over his 2 years. Winslow's TS% is .460, RHJ's is .517. How is he better?

[Paradise]

It's amazing how under appreciated Rondae is. You'd think he was Kwame Brown or something.

Watch on YouTube

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[antique0o0]

there are good defenders, and then there are elite defenders.

there are few elite defenders, especially guys good enough to defend SG, SF, and PF.

Tony Allen, Kawai, Draymond green. Kidd-gilchrist, george.

you see one of those guys every 5 years... maybe 10. and typically they are unattainable because in addition to being a great defender they are also great on offense (kawai, george).

i mean there are the sefolosha's, bradleys, corey brewers... those guys are really good... but they really just gaurd 1 or 2 spots and not at the level RHJ does.

Tony Allen, Kawai, Draymond green. Kidd-gilchrist, and george, are not only elite defender. Don't underestimate Tony Allen and Dray Green's offensive impact on their team (except Kidd-gilchrist). I don't see RHJ reach their offensive level in three years.

And also, I don't really know Sefolosha and Brewers' game, but, IMO, defensively, RHJ is not on Bradley's level.

Draymond green, george and Kawai are all-nba players. they will get super-max deals.

RHJ is already better then tony allen on offense. tony allen is an awful offensive player.

allen:
9 points per game
27.8% from three
49.2 TS%
61% FT%

Bradley is a solid defender, but grades out jsut above nuetral and struggles on bigger players. he is more a PG/SG then a SG/SF.

Bradley is also going to get a huge deal next season.

Bradley is going to get a huge deal because he's a two-way player.

[Prokorov]

Celtics don't have any defensive minded big man, their defense relies heavily on their wings.
Although Heat has Whiteside, they still relies big on their wings, their wings rotation are improtant for them, especially in their playoff series one season ago.
RHJ isn't better than Winslow.
Mozgov isn't a good PnR defender...

horford is a good defender.

not only is RHJ better then winslow defensively, it is by a pretty large margin...

Winslow:
+0.16 DRPM
+0.39 DRAPM
1.07 PPP allowed
0.8 DWS
+1.2 DBPM
1.4 steals
0.3 blocks

RHJ
1.78 DRPM
2.02 DRAPM
1.05 PPP allowed
2.2 DWS
+1.9 DBPM
1.1 steals
0.6 blocks

RHJ can also gaurd 1 through 4.

he is also a worse offensive player then RHJ fo what that is worth

I don't trust the evaluation based solely on stats.

I'm not sure what else you want to go on..

Eyeball test RHJ is off the charts. shutting down bigs and smalls.

RHJ got 2 all-nba defense votes. winslow none.

RHJ's team was better defensively with him on the floor the miami was with winslow on the floor

RHJs team was worse with him OFF the floor then miami was with winslow OFF the floor.

there is literally no evidence that comes close to suggesting winslow is as good as RHJ on defense, let alone better. and if you factor in offense where RHJ is much better then it becomes an even bigger gap.

you could probably compare how they fare vs. similar opponents. that data isnt readily available unless you have a synergy/stats inc subscription.

what exactly makes you think winslow is a better defender, despite the mountains of evidence otherwise?

Watch on YouTube

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Watch on YouTube

[Ror1997]

I need nets news man

[vincecarter4pres]

I need nets news man

At this point I just want to see a video of RHJ at the practice facility shooting 1,487 3's, I'm sold.

[All Nets]

One question the Marksman needs to ask is, is KCP/Porter better than LVJ?

ATM, I'm sure both are better in the sense that GMs would take either player to contend for a championship in one year rather than LeVert.

The question Marks needs to ask is, is it worth locking up heavy salary over the next 4 years and stifling game time minutes for LeVert. If he believes LeVert doesn't have the drive to improve into at least a solid starter, then he should favor guys like KCP and Porter over LeVert in order to best build some type of winning culture.

However, if he believes LeVert can develop into a potential all-star or borderline all-star, then the sooner that happens (typically with more playing time) the more efficient the Nets salary spending will be. Caris will be making roughly $2M for the next 3 years, the sooner he gets to starter/above average starter quality, the more money BKN will have to be able to attract other players at more necessary positions.

Btw, what's with the J in LVJ? Is LeVert a junior?

[Curns13]

I need nets news man

At this point I just want to see a video of RHJ at the practice facility shooting 1,487 3's, I'm sold.

Agreed, weights and 3s.

[antique0o0]

horford is a good defender.

not only is RHJ better then winslow defensively, it is by a pretty large margin...

Winslow:
+0.16 DRPM
+0.39 DRAPM
1.07 PPP allowed
0.8 DWS
+1.2 DBPM
1.4 steals
0.3 blocks

RHJ
1.78 DRPM
2.02 DRAPM
1.05 PPP allowed
2.2 DWS
+1.9 DBPM
1.1 steals
0.6 blocks

RHJ can also gaurd 1 through 4.

he is also a worse offensive player then RHJ fo what that is worth

I don't trust the evaluation based solely on stats.

I'm not sure what else you want to go on..

Eyeball test RHJ is off the charts. shutting down bigs and smalls.

RHJ got 2 all-nba defense votes. winslow none.

RHJ's team was better defensively with him on the floor the miami was with winslow on the floor

RHJs team was worse with him OFF the floor then miami was with winslow OFF the floor.

there is literally no evidence that comes close to suggesting winslow is as good as RHJ on defense, let alone better. and if you factor in offense where RHJ is much better then it becomes an even bigger gap.

you could probably compare how they fare vs. similar opponents. that data isnt readily available unless you have a synergy/stats inc subscription.

what exactly makes you think winslow is a better defender, despite the mountains of evidence otherwise?

Watch on YouTube

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Watch on YouTube

Winslow only played 18 games last season. And all of them are at the beginning of the last season, when the heat are kind of trying to figure things out.
In his rookie season, he palyed about 25 min/game in the playoffs. He got those minutes solely for defensive reasons.
Saying RHJ is better than Winslow doesn't convince me for that.

[Ror1997]

No idea why he keeps trying to make LVJ a thing

[vincecarter4pres]

I'm guessing it's a play on LBJ lol.