Fultz vs. Tatum: What do you think now?

[Kolkmania]

Nobody wants to be the team that picked Jalil Okafor and passed on Porzingis. I don't want to look back n feel the way Philli feels

Olynyk/Giannis

It happens

That's not a fair analysis. It's not like he slid from 1st pick to 16th pick. He was considered a long shot that needed years to develop when he came out. Super raw. When you pick second your in theory supposed to get the second best player in the draft when it all pans out.

Lol. The consensus was that the Lakers would pick Jahlil Okafor and the Sixers De'Angelo Russell. Nobody thought that Porzingis would have the immediate impact he had in his rookie year and wasn't the surefire thing you portrait him.

[Fidel Sarcasmo]

Olynyk/Giannis

It happens

That's not a fair analysis. It's not like he slid from 1st pick to 16th pick. He was considered a long shot that needed years to develop when he came out. Super raw. When you pick second your in theory supposed to get the second best player in the draft when it all pans out.

Lol. The consensus was that the Lakers would pick Jahlil Okafor and the Sixers De'Angelo Russell. Nobody thought that Porzingis would have the immediate impact he had in his rookie year and wasn't the surefire thing you portrait him.

You can't look back at a guy who developed at an accelerated pace once they got to the league compared to everyone else and label him a player that "fell." He didnt fall because he was considered a draft pick worth a low lottery slot at the time. The pros felt this way.

[Kolkmania]

That's not a fair analysis. It's not like he slid from 1st pick to 16th pick. He was considered a long shot that needed years to develop when he came out. Super raw. When you pick second your in theory supposed to get the second best player in the draft when it all pans out.

Lol. The consensus was that the Lakers would pick Jahlil Okafor and the Sixers De'Angelo Russell. Nobody thought that Porzingis would have the immediate impact he had in his rookie year and wasn't the surefire thing you portrait him.

You can't look back at a guy who developed at an accelerated pace once they got to the league compared to everyone else and label him a player that "fell." He didnt fall because he was considered a draft pick worth a low lottery slot at the time. The pros felt this way.

I agree, but the same can be said about Porzingis, he didn't "slip" as well, just performed above his expected production in his first two years. So I don't see why Okafor/Porzingis and Olynyk/Giannis are two completely different cases.

[Fidel Sarcasmo]

Lol. The consensus was that the Lakers would pick Jahlil Okafor and the Sixers De'Angelo Russell. Nobody thought that Porzingis would have the immediate impact he had in his rookie year and wasn't the surefire thing you portrait him.

You can't look back at a guy who developed at an accelerated pace once they got to the league compared to everyone else and label him a player that "fell." He didnt fall because he was considered a draft pick worth a low lottery slot at the time. The pros felt this way.

I agree, but the same can be said about Porzingis, he didn't "slip" as well, just performed above his expected production in his first two years. So I don't see why Okafor/Porzingis and Olynyk/Giannis are two completely different cases.

It's not that they're different. Your just bashing DA unfairly because your not saying LA lakers took Dangelo Russell when they could've had Giannis. If a Sixer fan is on their respective board bashing their FO about why in the world they passed on Gianni's at 3, they're out of line and trying to rewrite history as if he "fell." Some may even say Giannis could be bettter than KAT.

[UNCBlue012]

If I'm Ainge, I absolutely take my chances and draft Fultz. I think the guy is going to be really good.

That being said, I also think Tatum will be an above-average NBA player. There isn't much to NOT love about his game.

I'm just sold on Fultz, his talent, upside and game. We'll see long term.

I do think that I'll have to keep my mouth shut if we include the Lakers pick in a bigger deal for a legit center. (which I think is completely likely.)

[Kolkmania]

You can't look back at a guy who developed at an accelerated pace once they got to the league compared to everyone else and label him a player that "fell." He didnt fall because he was considered a draft pick worth a low lottery slot at the time. The pros felt this way.

I agree, but the same can be said about Porzingis, he didn't "slip" as well, just performed above his expected production in his first two years. So I don't see why Okafor/Porzingis and Olynyk/Giannis are two completely different cases.

It's not that they're different. Your just bashing DA unfairly because your not saying LA lakers took Dangelo Russell when they could've had Giannis. If a Sixer fan is on their respective board bashing their FO about why in the world they passed on Gianni's at 3, they're out of line and trying to rewrite history as if he "fell." Some may even say Giannis could be bettter than KAT.

I don't get your point. Olynyk was picked at 13 not 3, and 13 was in the region that Giannis was a viable option. But I do agree that blaming DA for not picking Giannis is harsh, was a major risk and needed the exact right circumstances to develop into star he is today. Everybody GM miss some of their picks (not saying that Olynyk was a clear miss).

[Celtic King]

If Tatum is even a comparable player to Fultz, we win the trade. The pressure is all on Fultz to prove to be head and shoulders above the class. If he isn't, Philly will look bad for giving up another lottery pick to move up to #1 and not select the best player in the draft.

This logic seems completely backwards to me. Ainge initially had the top pick in the draft and could have chosen anybody that he wanted to. Tatum is the implied number one pick in this draft, and the pressure is entirely on him (and Ainge) to prove he was worthy of that honor. If in five years Fultz is an all-star starter in the east, while Tatum is averaging 14/6 as a solid but unspectacular nba starter, are Boston Celtic fans REALLY going to be okay with that? That he was the number one pick, and of course he was expected to be the better player? No, they will/should crucify Ainge if that happens. Think of how much criticism that Ainge has gotten from fans for passing on players like Giannis and Deandre? Take that criticism and multiply it by one thousand, and that is how much criticism he will receive if Fultz/Tatum turns into the next Jordan/Bowie type situation.

And really, if any of the top five or so picks wind up appreciably better than Tatum, that criticism is still going to be valid, imo. Ainge was in the driver's seat in this draft, and he needed to hit a home run. We shall see if he did.

Fultz will be a very good point guard and that is what Philly needed more than anything. A cheap way to get a young potential star PG for them. We have our pg's as needed by the team and felt we needed a different player and the one we targeted. Both teams can come out of these trade looking good. DA getting us back in the lottery next year s well with the LAL/Sac pick in a very good draft just makes the trade better for us.

[Fidel Sarcasmo]

I agree, but the same can be said about Porzingis, he didn't "slip" as well, just performed above his expected production in his first two years. So I don't see why Okafor/Porzingis and Olynyk/Giannis are two completely different cases.

It's not that they're different. Your just bashing DA unfairly because your not saying LA lakers took Dangelo Russell when they could've had Giannis. If a Sixer fan is on their respective board bashing their FO about why in the world they passed on Gianni's at 3, they're out of line and trying to rewrite history as if he "fell." Some may even say Giannis could be bettter than KAT.

I don't get your point. Olynyk was picked at 13 not 3, and 13 was in the region that Giannis was a viable option. But I do agree that blaming DA for not picking Giannis is harsh, was a major risk and needed the exact right circumstances to develop into star he is today. Everybody GM miss some of their picks (not saying that Olynyk was a clear miss).

I don't know how to make my point any clearer. If you are gonna say DA passed on Goannis at 13, you also have to say Kupchack passed on passed on Gianni's at 2 because Gianni's turned out to be a million times better than Russell too. No one saw him being as good of a prospect as guys who went at the top but he turned out to be arguably the best player in the draft. You're getting upset at the guy who passed him at 13, but not the guy who passed at 11 or at 6 or at 2. If DA blew the pick then the 12 teams who picked ahead of him are just as bad too.

[SmartWentCrazy]

My main contention before the draft was that people need to watch these guys play and form their own opinions, not just regurgitate DX from a 7 minute high/lowlight clip.

Tatum was bashed a little too heavily by some here. Fultz praised a little too highly.

Fultz has a skill level far beyond his years. His footwork is amazing and his ability to contort his body is incredible. But there are legitimate questions on his quickness and ability to draw fouls. If he can draw fouls at an elite rate, he'll be an MVP candidate akin to Harden. If he isn't able to improve in this area, he's closer to Kyrie.

Tatum got bashed too heavily for his athleticism with a foot injury. He's not where he needs to be in this area, but should improve as he adds strength. His ability to hit shots was also understated-- he never shot threes till late in high school and needs to add leg strength. Repetition and weight training should help him immensely here.

I think Tatum is a top 15 type player at his prime. I think Fultz has a floor of top 15 and peak of top 5-- all dependent on his FT rate. If he doesn't improve, this deal is a home run. If he does, it's a tough pill to swallow but not a terrible deal either.

[sam_I_am]

I can't believe GSW passed on Draymond Green to pick Festus Ezeli. Draymond is easily top 5 in that draft.

[Kolkmania]

It's not that they're different. Your just bashing DA unfairly because your not saying LA lakers took Dangelo Russell when they could've had Giannis. If a Sixer fan is on their respective board bashing their FO about why in the world they passed on Gianni's at 3, they're out of line and trying to rewrite history as if he "fell." Some may even say Giannis could be bettter than KAT.

I don't get your point. Olynyk was picked at 13 not 3, and 13 was in the region that Giannis was a viable option. But I do agree that blaming DA for not picking Giannis is harsh, was a major risk and needed the exact right circumstances to develop into star he is today. Everybody GM miss some of their picks (not saying that Olynyk was a clear miss).

I don't know how to make my point any clearer. If you are gonna say DA passed on Goannis at 13, you also have to say Kupchack passed on passed on Gianni's at 2 because Gianni's turned out to be a million times better than Russell too. No one saw him being as good of a prospect as guys who went at the top but he turned out to be arguably the best player in the draft. You're getting upset at the guy who passed him at 13, but not the guy who passed at 11 or at 6 or at 2. If DA blew the pick then the 12 teams who picked ahead of him are just as bad too.

Yeah sure, if there was a redraft than Giannis and Gobert will be 1 and 2, but that's hindsight. Giannis was a massive project and his median outcome wasn't close to his current production. There was always a decent chance that he busted and thus it would be probably unfair to criticize the top 3 for passing on him. At 13 the risk/reward consideration was much more plausible.

Not sure what Russell and Kupchack have to do with Giannis since Russell was playing at Montverde at the time and the Lakers won 45 games and didn't have the opportunity to pick Giannis.

Perhaps you meant Porzingis instead of Russell and then I get your point and I agree. That's why I said that the Okafor/Porzingis and Olynyk/Giannis situations are somewhat similar, something you disagreed with.

[Fidel Sarcasmo]

I don't get your point. Olynyk was picked at 13 not 3, and 13 was in the region that Giannis was a viable option. But I do agree that blaming DA for not picking Giannis is harsh, was a major risk and needed the exact right circumstances to develop into star he is today. Everybody GM miss some of their picks (not saying that Olynyk was a clear miss).

I don't know how to make my point any clearer. If you are gonna say DA passed on Goannis at 13, you also have to say Kupchack passed on passed on Gianni's at 2 because Gianni's turned out to be a million times better than Russell too. No one saw him being as good of a prospect as guys who went at the top but he turned out to be arguably the best player in the draft. You're getting upset at the guy who passed him at 13, but not the guy who passed at 11 or at 6 or at 2. If DA blew the pick then the 12 teams who picked ahead of him are just as bad too.

Yeah sure, if there was a redraft than Giannis and Gobert will be 1 and 2, but that's hindsight. Giannis was a massive project and his median outcome wasn't close to his current production. There was always a decent chance that he busted and thus it would be probably unfair to criticize the top 3 for passing on him. At 13 the risk/reward consideration was much more plausible.

Not sure what Russell and Kupchack have to do with Giannis since Russell was playing at Montverde at the time and the Lakers won 45 games and didn't have the opportunity to pick Giannis.

Perhaps you meant Porzingis instead of Russell and then I get your point and I agree. That's why I said that the Okafor/Porzingis and Olynyk/Giannis situations are somewhat similar, something you disagreed with.

My bad immixing up drafts. Out side of that you now get where I'm coming from. Anyone could turn into an allstar at a low pick. It happens in baseball all the time. Guys go in the 7th round n blow through the minors n hit the bigs n do well. And then armchair quarterbacks ask why their team passed on them. It happens in football. Everyone is alway swinging off Belicheck's nuts in New England n I'm sure he's passed on some prospects who've turned out to be fantastic players.

[Red2]

Now that we have Hayward and have to trade smart or bradley or crowder, wouldn't Fultz have made more sense as a bradley or smart replacement and as insurance for Isaiah leaving

[hickfromfrenchlick]

Poll options pretty silly. Can dislike the trade without thinking Ainge should be fired. It was solid value.

I just liked Fultz a lot more than Tatum and still do.

Agreed, poll options don't quite capture people's reactions.

I "liked" the trade because I understood that Ainge didn't love Fultz -- even though I did. So with that the case, he got good value (although the #1 protection seems unnecessary). I also preferred Tatum to Jackson, so I was OK with what he did at #3.

So for me, the answer really was and is: "I'm putting my trust in Ainge."

We won't know for some time who won the trade.

[shackles10]

Not sure the poll options really capture how I felt about it (or continue to feel about it). I was pretty down on it at the time and one summer league game isn't really a large enough sample size to change that much (but it was certainly encouraging). If Tatum and Fultz end up being roughly equivalent like they appeared last night, then I'm very happy to admit I was wrong - getting the taller player and a pick is obviously fantastic.

Agreed with lack of poll options. I suspect this is reason for poll results too. I was very much wtf at first, then rationalized it and willing to give ainge benefit of the doubt. As trades and free agency have shaken out some I like our chances of Lakers pick next year, and think that's terrific value. If we had traded Fultz for PG and Tatum then same thing, great value. If Lakers avoid 2-6 and we get the Kings pick I don't like that as much. I think Kings and Philly will be better in 2 years so we'll see.

[Kool_Name_Right]

Fultz should have been a Celtic but honestly I'm still mad we couldn't get more value from the 76ers.

Saric, Okafor or Holmes would have made the trade easier for me.

[greenmachine_2849]

I don't know how to make my point any clearer. If you are gonna say DA passed on Goannis at 13, you also have to say Kupchack passed on passed on Gianni's at 2 because Gianni's turned out to be a million times better than Russell too. No one saw him being as good of a prospect as guys who went at the top but he turned out to be arguably the best player in the draft. You're getting upset at the guy who passed him at 13, but not the guy who passed at 11 or at 6 or at 2. If DA blew the pick then the 12 teams who picked ahead of him are just as bad too.

Ainge deserves more criticism because Giannis was or should have been on his radar, given where he was projected to be drafted. He should have been brought in by Ainge for a workout, interviewed, etc. The person with the number three pick in the draft probably shouldn't be expected to bring in every possible first round selection for a workout. Did Ainge bring every possible draftee in this year when he had the number one pick? I don't think so.

And I don't even blame Ainge for what happened in the 2013 draft. Giannis slipped by a lot of general managers to various degrees. It happens. The draft is a crapshoot and always will be, imo. It is why I don't value lottery picks as much as some on this board do..

[Fidel Sarcasmo]

I don't know how to make my point any clearer. If you are gonna say DA passed on Goannis at 13, you also have to say Kupchack passed on passed on Gianni's at 2 because Gianni's turned out to be a million times better than Russell too. No one saw him being as good of a prospect as guys who went at the top but he turned out to be arguably the best player in the draft. You're getting upset at the guy who passed him at 13, but not the guy who passed at 11 or at 6 or at 2. If DA blew the pick then the 12 teams who picked ahead of him are just as bad too.

Ainge deserves more criticism because Giannis was or should have been on his radar, given where he was projected to be drafted. He should have been brought in by Ainge for a workout, interviewed, etc. The person with the number three pick in the draft probably shouldn't be expected to bring in every possible first round selection for a workout. Did Ainge bring every possible draftee in this year when he had the number one pick? I don't think so.

And I don't even blame Ainge for what happened in the 2013 draft. Giannis slipped by a lot of general managers to various degrees. It happens. The draft is a crapshoot and always will be, imo. It is why I don't value lottery picks as much as some on this board do..

Your preaching to the choir. I'm defending him against his detracters that aren't being consistent with their criticisms. It's the same thing with the draymond green crew. Everyone passed on him in some cases twice so if passing on Draymond makes him a bad talent evaluator that means everyone has to be givin the same label and his aren't being consistent cUse their not rooting for any other team. I'm certain every other fan base bashed their team for passing on draymond.

[sam_I_am]

I don't know how to make my point any clearer. If you are gonna say DA passed on Goannis at 13, you also have to say Kupchack passed on passed on Gianni's at 2 because Gianni's turned out to be a million times better than Russell too. No one saw him being as good of a prospect as guys who went at the top but he turned out to be arguably the best player in the draft. You're getting upset at the guy who passed him at 13, but not the guy who passed at 11 or at 6 or at 2. If DA blew the pick then the 12 teams who picked ahead of him are just as bad too.

Ainge deserves more criticism because Giannis was or should have been on his radar, given where he was projected to be drafted. He should have been brought in by Ainge for a workout, interviewed, etc. The person with the number three pick in the draft probably shouldn't be expected to bring in every possible first round selection for a workout. Did Ainge bring every possible draftee in this year when he had the number one pick? I don't think so.

And I don't even blame Ainge for what happened in the 2013 draft. Giannis slipped by a lot of general managers to various degrees. It happens. The draft is a crapshoot and always will be, imo. It is why I don't value lottery picks as much as some on this board do..

Ainge did go to Europe to scout him. Rumor Inheard is that he asked GA to agree to stash for 1 year thinking he wasn't ready and moved on when he said no thanks.

[tlee324]

If Tatum is even a comparable player to Fultz, we win the trade. The pressure is all on Fultz to prove to be head and shoulders above the class. If he isn't, Philly will look bad for giving up another lottery pick to move up to #1 and not select the best player in the draft.

This logic seems completely backwards to me. Ainge initially had the top pick in the draft and could have chosen anybody that he wanted to. Tatum is the implied number one pick in this draft, and the pressure is entirely on him (and Ainge) to prove he was worthy of that honor. If in five years Fultz is an all-star starter in the east, while Tatum is averaging 14/6 as a solid but unspectacular nba starter, are Boston Celtic fans REALLY going to be okay with that? That he was the number one pick, and of course he was expected to be the better player? No, they will/should crucify Ainge if that happens. Think of how much criticism that Ainge has gotten from fans for passing on players like Giannis and Deandre? Take that criticism and multiply it by one thousand, and that is how much criticism he will receive if Fultz/Tatum turns into the next Jordan/Bowie type situation.

And really, if any of the top five or so picks wind up appreciably better than Tatum, that criticism is still going to be valid, imo. Ainge was in the driver's seat in this draft, and he needed to hit a home run. We shall see if he did.

Green machine, how did you derive a "Jordan/Bowie type situation" out of Bar Fight's initial assertion that if Tatum and Fultz are "comparable players", then Ainge wins the trade?

As a matter of fact, the rest of your post confirms Bar Fight's entire point. He basically says that Fultz will need to be head and shoulders ahead of Tatum altogether for Ainge to truly lose this one ( I'll add that the upcoming pick that came in the trade also needs to flop). That would actually BE the Jordan/Bowie scenario you brought up. You're agreeing with Bar Fight's point, actually; not failing to see his logic...