Ranking the best young core's in the League right now

[bwgood77]

Ok so this just wrong you are selling Jokic far to short. Right now Booker ceiling is probably like Ray Allen if he reaches his peak. Ray is a HOF all time great scorer and a great player. Jokic ceiling is Dirk and if your picking on who you wanted to start a franchise between Ray and Dirk everybody takes Dirk. Booker has not shown the handles, finishing, or defense to be a Kobe Byrant type number 1 on a championship team. Jokic with his unique skill set at 7 ft has. Neither has reached their ceiling but unless Booker becomes elite at something besides shooting he could be top tier 2 on a ship team.

Yeah, many people sell Jokic short. The Booker love is high here. I don't know if I'd say Dirk, but that's not a knock on Jokic, but his skills are mostly passing for a big, and he rebounds well and scores well inside. He is a decent 3 pt shooter, but I don't think he has Dirk's shooting touch. Not sure who the best comp is, but he is a special player.

I see jokic as similar to what the elder sabonis could have been in his prime in the NBA. Minus the athleticism and defensive potential.

That's a great comp.

[Biff]

Ok so this just wrong you are selling Jokic far to short. Right now Booker ceiling is probably like Ray Allen if he reaches his peak. Ray is a HOF all time great scorer and a great player. Jokic ceiling is Dirk and if your picking on who you wanted to start a franchise between Ray and Dirk everybody takes Dirk. Booker has not shown the handles, finishing, or defense to be a Kobe Byrant type number 1 on a championship team. Jokic with his unique skill set at 7 ft has. Neither has reached their ceiling but unless Booker becomes elite at something besides shooting he could be top tier 2 on a ship team.

Yeah, many people sell Jokic short. The Booker love is high here. I don't know if I'd say Dirk, but that's not a knock on Jokic, but his skills are mostly passing for a big, and he rebounds well and scores well inside. He is a decent 3 pt shooter, but I don't think he has Dirk's shooting touch. Not sure who the best comp is, but he is a special player.

The problem with the Jokic lovers is they act like this is 2000. His game is antiquated. No one is running their team through an inside playing 4. Is he good and needed at times in the half court, of course. But if Booker continues his trajectory and Jokic is a Sabonis type player......Devin will have a much bigger impact on the game and thus, I choose him all day everyday.

Before Nash and Curry and Lebron and Kobe and Harden you would have had me. I watched Ewing and Robinson and Hakeem and Sampson and Shaq and Duncan and KG and Barkley and Malone and Malone and Dawkins and Kareem and McHale......but now, with the rule changes against them and for the perimeter players....no chance.

It's about pushing the ball and threes now. Jordan, Isaiah, Bird, Magic, KJ, Dominique, Hardaway, Mullins, would have had a field day in today's game.


But please everyone. If you love Jokic.....love him. I don't and won't. I think I have that right.

Jokic's on/off numbers don't really support your argument though. Denver is a much much better team with him on the court than with him off of it. One of the knocks against him last year was his propensity for making stupid fouls and getting himself into foul trouble early, which really hurt Denver.

His game really isn't all that antiquated. He is an extremely good shooter for a big man (only area Booker shot a higher % was from 3 - Jokic shot a significantly higher % from the basket all the way to 23') and can still take advantage of mismatches in the post. He's certainly not a guy you want switching onto guards but he's close to an average defender.

[oddity]

Its too bad you started your prior post saying that you preferring Jokic over Booker to build a team around isn't opinion. I'd didn't LOl. I ignored your post so I didn't have to use the

I said he's the better player, and used overwhelming statistical evidence as the proof of that. The numbers paint a very convincing picture of this, and those numbers aren't opinions was my point, its actual data.

No worries if you want to disagree with that, discourse is what these forums are for!! If you don't want to read my posts, just don't read them, you don't need to make a post, replying to my post, saying you didn't read my post lol!!

I'm not reading ridiculousness. You can interpret data however you please, there is no data saying Jokic is a better fit for today's game than Booker. They play two different positions, so using data to support your opinion is flawed. The only data that matters is not one team that is competing for a title is being lead by a slow footed inside playing PF/C that cannot guard anything outside of Marc Gasol.....

Jokic is horrible for today's game. Good stat stuffer, but yesterday's news. Glad you aren't building this team. You'd trade Booker for Jokic.....yuck!!

A good stat stuffer wouldn't look so remarkable in advanced stats like his 8.4 box plus minus. What's stat-sheet stuffing about a 64% true shooting, or visibly improving your team's performance while on the court with an awesome 7.7 OWS and 5.3 VORP? Meanwhile Denver was held up almost into the playoffs by this second year player, and you're telling me he can't fit in today's game? In every category Jokic has proven to succeed on the court; THE FACT THAT IT HAPPENS IS PROOF THAT HE CAN PLAY IN TODAY'S GAME.

[Preacherpj]

I said he's the better player, and used overwhelming statistical evidence as the proof of that. The numbers paint a very convincing picture of this, and those numbers aren't opinions was my point, its actual data.

No worries if you want to disagree with that, discourse is what these forums are for!! If you don't want to read my posts, just don't read them, you don't need to make a post, replying to my post, saying you didn't read my post lol!!

I'm not reading ridiculousness. You can interpret data however you please, there is no data saying Jokic is a better fit for today's game than Booker. They play two different positions, so using data to support your opinion is flawed. The only data that matters is not one team that is competing for a title is being lead by a slow footed inside playing PF/C that cannot guard anything outside of Marc Gasol.....

Jokic is horrible for today's game. Good stat stuffer, but yesterday's news. Glad you aren't building this team. You'd trade Booker for Jokic.....yuck!!

A good stat stuffer wouldn't look so remarkable in advanced stats like his 8.4 box plus minus. What's stat-sheet stuffing about a 64% true shooting, or visibly improving your team's performance while on the court with an awesome 7.7 OWS and 5.3 VORP? Meanwhile Denver was held up almost into the playoffs by this second year player, and you're telling me he can't fit in today's game? In every category Jokic has proven to succeed on the court; THE FACT THAT IT HAPPENS IS PROOF THAT HE CAN PLAY IN TODAY'S GAME.

He's a fantastic player and his ability to pass the ball really separates him from a lot of other big men, he can be a facilitator which is a big deal in today's game.

[JMac1]

I don't like Jokic's game, what don't you clowns get about that? He is a turd.

[Zelaznyrules]

I don't like Jokic's game, what don't you clowns get about that? He is a turd.

Because you offer reasons that don't hold up to even casual scrutiny. I'd rather build around Booker than Jokic too but the idea that Jokic isn't an incredible prospect in his own right floors me. The man is good. His game fits today's NBA - perhaps not as well as that of a dominant shooting guard but it fits regardless. All the facts are on the other side of this argument IMO.

[Gant]

Draft is over -- how do you guys think our young core compares to others around the league.... for the purposes of this I'm cutting a line at age 25.... everything under that I'm calling a young core player, everything over... I'm not counting. Also not looking at future draft assets on this list, just players currently on the rosters.



the contenders

Boston
Players
James Young, Jayson Tatum, Terry Rozier, Jaylen Brown

Sixers
Players
Stauskas, Ben Simmons, Saric, Poythress, Okafor, Fultz, Embiid, Justin Anderson, Luwawu-Cabarrot, Richaun Holmes, TJ Mcconnell

Milwaukee
Players
Giannis, Malcolm Brogdon, Thon Maker, Khris Middleton, Jabari Parker, Gary Payton II, DJ Wilson

Portland
Players
Nurkic, Swanigan, Zach Collins, Maurice Harkless, Vonleh, Allen Crabbe, CJ McCollum, Napier

Minnesota
Tyus Jones, Shabazz Muhammad, KAT, Wiggins, Justin Patton

Denver
Players
Jamal Murray, Mudiay, Trey Lyles, Tyler Lydon, Jokic, Juan Hernangomez, Gary Harris

Sactown
Players
Cauley-Stein, De'Aaron Fox, Harry Giles, Buddy Hield, Justin Jackson, Labissiere, Frank Mason III, Georgis Papagiannis, Malachi Richardson

PHX
Players
Bender, Booker, Chriss, JJackson, DJJR, Len, Peters, Warren, Ulis, Reed, Knight


My initial rankings
1. Sixers
Just so much raw talent. Hard for to rank anyone else here. Health could be an issue, but it seems like Simmons, Embiid and Fultz all have franchise altering potential; Saric has already proven to be a valuable NBA wing. They found good contributers at other spots like TJ McConnell

2. Minnesota
Not as many assets - but KAT is a top ~15ish player in the league, averaged 25/12... the best player on this list. Wiggins is a more than capable sidekick throwing in 23 PPG, again this isn't as deep of a core as others on this list, but its the best 1-2 punch.

3. Milwaukee
The presence of Giannis is enough to push them to this spot for me, its unfortunate that Parker hasn't always stayed healthy, but he's a really good scorer. Middleton is a well rounded player.

4. Portland
Going back to a 1-2 punch, I love McCollum and pairing him with Nurkic is a really strong foundation (Lillard is 26 btw). Not as deep of a group, but the top-two are very good.

5. Denver
Jokic is a stud and easily one of the best players on this list.

6. Phoenix
A little lower for me because I don't think we have a guy on the KAT, Giannis, McCollum, Jokic level RIGHT NOW. Booker could be that guy, but he's not on their tier IMO. We have as much depth in our young core as anyone, but we really don't know yet with guys like Bender/Chriss/Jackson.

7. Sacramento
They've pretty quietly built up an interesting group of young athletic dudes, I'd be pretty excited if I was a Kings fan in this post-Cousins era

8. Boston
Most of their core guys are over 25.

Boston adjustment:

Jaylen Brown, Jayson Tatum, Terry Rozier, Marcus Smart (23 years old), Semi Ojeleye, Ante Zizic, Guerschon Yabusele, Daniel Theis, Abdel Nader

I want a recount!

[bwgood77]

I don't like Jokic's game, what don't you clowns get about that? He is a turd.

Because you offer reasons that don't hold up to even casual scrutiny. I'd rather build around Booker than Jokic too but the idea that Jokic isn't an incredible prospect in his own right floors me. The man is good. His game fits today's NBA - perhaps not as well as that of a dominant shooting guard but it fits regardless. All the facts are on the other side of this argument IMO.

Jokic does rank a little better in Real Plus Minus as well. I definitely wouldn't call him a turd.

3 Stephen Curry, PG
4 Draymond Green, PF
5 Kawhi Leonard, SF
6 Nikola Jokic, C
7 Jimmy Butler, SG
8 Rudy Gobert, C
9 Russell Westbrook, PG

241 Devin Booker, SG
242 Ben Bentil, PF
243 Sam Dekker, SF

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/1/sort/RPM

[JMac1]

I don't like Jokic's game, what don't you clowns get about that? He is a turd.

Because you offer reasons that don't hold up to even casual scrutiny. I'd rather build around Booker than Jokic too but the idea that Jokic isn't an incredible prospect in his own right floors me. The man is good. His game fits today's NBA - perhaps not as well as that of a dominant shooting guard but it fits regardless. All the facts are on the other side of this argument IMO.

Jokic does rank a little better in Real Plus Minus as well. I definitely wouldn't call him a turd.

3 Stephen Curry, PG
4 Draymond Green, PF
5 Kawhi Leonard, SF
6 Nikola Jokic, C
7 Jimmy Butler, SG
8 Rudy Gobert, C
9 Russell Westbrook, PG

241 Devin Booker, SG
242 Ben Bentil, PF
243 Sam Dekker, SF

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/1/sort/RPM

One of the most worthless stats on the planet!

[bwgood77]

Because you offer reasons that don't hold up to even casual scrutiny. I'd rather build around Booker than Jokic too but the idea that Jokic isn't an incredible prospect in his own right floors me. The man is good. His game fits today's NBA - perhaps not as well as that of a dominant shooting guard but it fits regardless. All the facts are on the other side of this argument IMO.

Jokic does rank a little better in Real Plus Minus as well. I definitely wouldn't call him a turd.

3 Stephen Curry, PG
4 Draymond Green, PF
5 Kawhi Leonard, SF
6 Nikola Jokic, C
7 Jimmy Butler, SG
8 Rudy Gobert, C
9 Russell Westbrook, PG

241 Devin Booker, SG
242 Ben Bentil, PF
243 Sam Dekker, SF

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/1/sort/RPM

One of the most worthless stats on the planet!

Well looking at the top 20 or so to judge how well it captures player value, it seems pretty reasonable.

[TheFire]

I don't like Jokic's game, what don't you clowns get about that? He is a turd.

I suggest watching him play little more because he's one of the most exciting players in the league.

Think of Larry Bird trapped inside a 6'11 pudgy 22 year old.

[JMac1]

Jokic does rank a little better in Real Plus Minus as well. I definitely wouldn't call him a turd.

3 Stephen Curry, PG
4 Draymond Green, PF
5 Kawhi Leonard, SF
6 Nikola Jokic, C
7 Jimmy Butler, SG
8 Rudy Gobert, C
9 Russell Westbrook, PG

241 Devin Booker, SG
242 Ben Bentil, PF
243 Sam Dekker, SF

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/1/sort/RPM

One of the most worthless stats on the planet!

Well looking at the top 20 or so to judge how well it captures player value, it seems pretty reasonable.

Yea. Good teams with good players have plus value. Just look at the whole Warrior team. What is AD's plus minus..... ? I bet it is negative.

[JMac1]

My bad....real plus minus is different than plus minus.....didn't know that. Not that bad of a stat after all.

[JMac1]

I don't like Jokic's game, what don't you clowns get about that? He is a turd.

I suggest watching him play little more because he's one of the most exciting players in the league.

Think of Larry Bird trapped inside a 6'11 pudgy 22 year old.

I saw him play. Excitement isn't the word I'd use to describe him. Pudgy is tho.

[TOO]

I don't like Jokic's game, what don't you clowns get about that? He is a turd.

I suggest watching him play little more because he's one of the most exciting players in the league.

Think of Larry Bird trapped inside a 6'11 pudgy 22 year old.

I saw him play. Excitement isn't the word I'd use to describe him. Pudgy is tho.

Ridiculous. He's better than everyone on the Suns, by A LOT.

[JMac1]

I suggest watching him play little more because he's one of the most exciting players in the league.

Think of Larry Bird trapped inside a 6'11 pudgy 22 year old.

I saw him play. Excitement isn't the word I'd use to describe him. Pudgy is tho.

Ridiculous. He's better than everyone on the Suns, by A LOT.

That's your opinion. Glad you shared, however, it don't mean **** to me.

[TOO]

I saw him play. Excitement isn't the word I'd use to describe him. Pudgy is tho.

Ridiculous. He's better than everyone on the Suns, by A LOT.

That's your opinion. Glad you shared, however, it don't mean **** to me.

Cool man. Grumpy old puss. It's not my fault you dont know anything about basketball.

[JMac1]

Ridiculous. He's better than everyone on the Suns, by A LOT.

That's your opinion. Glad you shared, however, it don't mean **** to me.

Cool man. Grumpy old puss. It's not my fault you dont know anything about basketball.

you couldn't hold this grumpy old puss' jock with a crane. Be thankful for the internet.

[SlovenianDragon]

Fight fight fight!

Watch on YouTube

[batsmasher]

I don't like Jokic's game, what don't you clowns get about that? He is a turd.

I suggest watching him play little more because he's one of the most exciting players in the league.

Think of Larry Bird trapped inside a 6'11 pudgy 22 year old.

Pudgy is one of the best ways I've heard an NBA athlete described. Is Duds pudgy? Where is the line drawn between pudgy and chubby? How much do we account for asses like Z-Bo and Sully? Do asses automatically disqualify you from pudgy status? So many questions.