RealGM Top 100 List 2017 -- #8

[Pablo Novi]

I have been busy, but my vote is for Shaquille O'Neal.

[snip section on Shaq]

2.) Julius Erving

I don't penalize Erving for his ABA years. The NBA was weak as well. Erving gets criticized for falling off due to his numbers dropping after entering the NBA. Then, later, he increases his scoring and wins MVP. Coincidence? No. He was on a team with poor roster fit. Had Erving been on a team more in need of efficient, volume scoring, I think many people would look back at him differently. Additionally, Erving's skill-set was more diverse than he is given credit for in the present day. Now one would come to think he could only run in transition and dunk. He had outstanding durability and longevity, and he gets bonus points for being a true icon. I have him right above Kobe.

As I've said in earlier posts, I have Dr J right above Kobe too.
In Dr J's ABA years he was close to the best player in either League - with a crazy skill set (unstoppable drives, dribbling between his legs to squeeze between two defenders almost shoulder to shoulder, one-man-against-most-of-the-other-team fast breaks - an unstoppable force on offense; and a very good defender. In the last ABA Finals vs the favored Nuggets (with Bobby Jones perhaps being the best defensive force in either League); Dr J just went ballistic (37.7 ppg over 6 games!).

Upon his arrival in the NBA, his coach asked him to tone down his game - one of the most class guys ever; Dr J did exactly what was asked of him (and we missed out on an otherwise GOAT-level skill set). I rate him over Bird during the same early 80's period.

It's not one of the main points, but his in-game dunks were just fabulous; as were any number of non-dunk moves to the rim. One of those non-dunk plays that really stands out: vs the Lakers, while beating 3 guys, floats across the key yet behind the backboard, only to flip it in from the opposite side.

[Jaivl]

Fact is that, no matter what all data says, my big balls have the ultimate truth.

Not even my opinion, it's just a FACT. Deal with it, losers.

[urnoggin]

Fact is that, no matter what all data says, my big balls have the ultimate truth.

Not even my opinion, it's just a FACT. Deal with it, losers.

This made me laugh . Exactly what he sounds like. imo he's the only person in this project that literally believes his opinions are facts which has made him oblivious to other arguments. Whenever he's stuck he just repeats what he's already said but adds "Fact is" in front as some sort of way to validate it.

[therealbig3]

So let's just accept that everyone on the 06 Wolves was crap, other than KG and Wally/Davis (they were traded for each other mid-season). Everyone else on that team other than those guys were terrible. Please don't espouse the virtues of Marcus Banks, Marko Jaric, Trenton Hassell, and the Kandiman. Mike James (joined the team in 07) was a crappy player, I really don't know how he's being used as some example of a good player next to KG. Especially when you're going to act like Smush Parker was the worst player ever. Smush Parker was better than Mike James.

As for Ricky Davis, he has always been a guy that makes every team he goes to worse. And Wally Szczerbiak ain't no Lamar Odom, not even close.

This comparison falls apart pretty easily. Kobe's team wasn't very good, and he was an offensive dynamo that year, but Lamar Odom was easily better than anyone KG played with at the time. And on top of that, it's not always about the talent, but how these players are able to gel and what kind of system they run. For whatever reason, regardless of how good you think those players were, they were able to function at a higher level than KG's teammates were able to. I'm pretty sure having Phil Jackson allowed the lesser players on the Lakers to succeed in their roles far more than the Wolves players were able to, and that has nothing to do with Kobe or KG.

BTW, if you want to talk talent, the 07 team had quite a bit more talent playing more minutes: Odom, Walton, Bynum, Vlad, Cook, Farmar. Again, not a great team, but I'd absolutely take that over KG's team.

[ElGee]

“I understand that he could very well be the same player in those years, showing great impact on the floor but its unfair to just assume that it would have led to great success in different circumstances. I'll use Kobe since we are talking about him, if you take his 01 playoffs and say in 02 he had a garbage team, but performed pretty well”

But the player did have success -- it was his team that didn't. It's a circular, winning-based argument.

Also, Its hard to evaluate performance on crap teams, the entire games even in the regular season have a different vibe/urgency, playing down to competition and its something I cannot = or
> to a player with similar #s on the impact plus doing it longer, more likely against better competition, and in the playoffs.

As for KD... It is not entirely predictable, only seems that way in hindsight.

So nihilism? How do we really know anything unless it happened?

Again, some can and have predicted these things well. If you're saying that you weren't sure last year that the Warriors would be better than the Lakers, people here are trying to tell you how you can be sure of it. The how and why are the key parts -- understand that, and these predictions won't see so crazy.

[ElGee]

Fact is that, no matter what all data says, my big balls have the ultimate truth.

Not even my opinion, it's just a FACT. Deal with it, losers.

K Garnett couldn't get out of first round for years - a total LOOSER. Sad! Pathetic!

[sic]

[Pablo Novi]

sorry, interior quotes don't work in a spoiler -- penbeast0
penbeast voted for Mikan (thanking me in the process for posting some Mikan history).

Mikan will forever be THE All-Time Great I'm most conflicted about.
(And I feel a bit guilty for perhaps being "partially responsible" for penbeast's voting him so high.

By Era-Dominance, imo, he'd have to be GOAT #1 - he WAS that much better than ALL his contemporaries; and his TEAMS utterly dominated, winning 7 Chips in 8 years. Wherever he played, the venue billboard would read, "Mkan & (his) Lakers" - he WAS Mr. Basketball; he WAS BOTH Leagues (NBL then NBA).

Otoh, I've tried to assign VERY ARBITRARY values to the level of play back then. The year (1946-47) he joined the NBL late in the season (his team, the Chicago American Gears went on to win the Chip) ... I assign "68%" compared to 100% for my version of the "Modern Era" (1960 season onwards). Because of how much his superiority shocked pro-b-ball) I assign the level of play a 5% jump up to 73% his first full year (with the Minneapolis Lakers, 1948 season); increasing 2 additional percent each subsequent year. The last year of is 7 Chips in 8 years run, 1954 season, I assign a 85% value.

Even so, I feel like I'm overrating the level of play then; but if I rated it any lower, none of those players, even Mikan would be in the GOAT Top 50.

On another site, the guy did a theoretical franchise-vs-franchise play-offs. Sitting behind KAJ, Wilt and Shaq on the All-Time Lakers team; Mikan wouldn't have gotten in any games until garbage time. I have a hard time picturing Mikan as the GOAT Center on any franchise's All-Time team.

In other words, I have REAL problems picturing Mikan's game as "transferrable" to the "Modern Era". The highest I've ever GOAT ranked him, several years ago, was GOAT #25 (in honor of his domination). I now have him "honorably" ranked GOAT #10 CENTER; or my life-time GOAT #50 (like he should ALWAYS be #50 - due to his utter domination in an incredibly weak Era).

[Pablo Novi]

I don't know about the rest of you; but my just previously-posted post (about Mikan) appears with a unique format. So, in answer to my question about my ability to make a "spoiler"; I guess the answer is clearly, "NOT". lol

Yikes, sorry.

[ardee]

Quite saddening to see personal attacks become a part of your strategy. Screw it, I'm on this project to vote and debate, not have Garnett fans be **** to me.

I won't be engaging any Garnett fans from now on, my posts will solely be directed towards posters who aren't already a part of this cult.

[andrewww]

Fact is that, no matter what all data says, my big balls have the ultimate truth.

Not even my opinion, it's just a FACT. Deal with it, losers.

K Garnett couldn't get out of first round for years - a total LOOSER. Sad! Pathetic!

[sic]

Some of you guys need to stop derailing the thread even if ardee comes across as having a strong opinion. While his opinion may not be in line with the majority of this project, it doesnt mean its wrong and like I've said myself, we're looking at advanced stats and going against the grain which is fine and a large purpose of this project. However, what most of us should keep in mind...even if KG was the prototype for building a team and Kobe was not, at the end of the day its your impact with the purpose of contributing to winning that matters. In other words, you can say KG was unlucky to play with the teammates he did, but that shouldnt take away from what Kobe actually did contribute.

Would you also rather have Terrell Brandon/Ricky Davis/Wally Szczerbiak or Lamar Odom/Smush Parker/Chris Mihm/Kwame Brown on your team? It seems with certain players on this project that we're almost looking for excuses to justify why their teams didnt do better, yet others who are not well liked are not even considered for certain spots... isnt that against what this project is about? Jaivl if Im not mistaken you claimed you wouldnt even consider Kobe until after KG/Hakeem/Shaq/Bird got voted in... are you not being closed minded which is what you're accusing ardee of?

[Pablo Novi]

For at least the 2nd thread in a row, we're having more pro/con- KG posts than, seemingly, all the other posts combined. With much less discussion (pro-/con-) of the player who actually gets "elected".

Hmmm

[THKNKG]

While his opinion may not be in line with the majority of this project, it doesnt mean its wrong.

There's a difference in having an opinion ("chocolate ice cream is better than vanilla"), and having an opinion contrary to all available evidence ("Kobe's teammates were just as bad as KG's"). He was doing the latter, and not the former; that's when problems are produced (especially since he came into the project with the express intent of ramming Kobe into the top 10, and making sure KG wasn't - viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1560598&p=55185532&hilit=reality#p55185532).

.

Can you please edit your first post? It sent us into the void.

[andrewww]

While his opinion may not be in line with the majority of this project, it doesnt mean its wrong.

There's a difference in having an opinion ("chocolate ice cream is better than vanilla"), and having an opinion contrary to all available evidence ("Kobe's teammates were just as bad as KG's"). He was doing the latter, and not the former; that's when problems are produced.

.

Can you please edit your first post? It sent us into the void.

The available evidence is that Kobe's teams made the playoffs in 06/07 and didnt in 05.
KG's didnt in 05-07.

And even if you accept that KG's cast was better (which I dont), was it that MUCH of a difference where KG didnt even make the playoffs once?

[Jaivl]

Jaivl if Im not mistaken you claimed you wouldnt even consider Kobe until after KG/Hakeem/Shaq/Bird got voted in... are you not being closed minded which is what you're accusing ardee of?

I won't argue Kobe myself. Certainly looking for arguments from other people.

[ardee]

So let's just accept that everyone on the 06 Wolves was crap, other than KG and Wally/Davis (they were traded for each other mid-season). Everyone else on that team other than those guys were terrible. Please don't espouse the virtues of Marcus Banks, Marko Jaric, Trenton Hassell, and the Kandiman. Mike James (joined the team in 07) was a crappy player, I really don't know how he's being used as some example of a good player next to KG. Especially when you're going to act like Smush Parker was the worst player ever. Smush Parker was better than Mike James.

As for Ricky Davis, he has always been a guy that makes every team he goes to worse. And Wally Szczerbiak ain't no Lamar Odom, not even close.

This comparison falls apart pretty easily. Kobe's team wasn't very good, and he was an offensive dynamo that year, but Lamar Odom was easily better than anyone KG played with at the time. And on top of that, it's not always about the talent, but how these players are able to gel and what kind of system they run. For whatever reason, regardless of how good you think those players were, they were able to function at a higher level than KG's teammates were able to. I'm pretty sure having Phil Jackson allowed the lesser players on the Lakers to succeed in their roles far more than the Wolves players were able to, and that has nothing to do with Kobe or KG.

BTW, if you want to talk talent, the 07 team had quite a bit more talent playing more minutes: Odom, Walton, Bynum, Vlad, Cook, Farmar. Again, not a great team, but I'd absolutely take that over KG's team.

-Ricky Davis was an efficient 18-5-5 player during his time in Minnesota. Did he have bad habits? Yes. Did he give KG someone to have a 2 man game with? Yes. Did he provide an alternative creator to take the pressure of KG? Yes. Was he perfect? No. But he was still better than anyone Kobe had to help create offense on the perimeter.

-Mike James was awesome the year before he came to Minnesota in 2007. 20 ppg on 59% TS, 45% from 3. I don't know why you seem to think he's horrible. Much better than Smush has ever been. Smush was also a locker-room cancer who openly spoke out against Kobe. None of KG's teammates ever caused problems for him like that.

-Banks, Jaric, Hassell, obviously none of them good players but really not much worse than Cook, rookie Farmar, 2006 and 2007 Sahsa. Also, you mentioned Odom, but he missed over a third of the season in 2007.

-Even if you took the 2006-07 Lakers over the 2006-07 Wolves minus Kobe and KG, the difference is nowhere close to make up the 10-13 more wins Kobe's team racked up over Garnett's.

[THKNKG]

Quite saddening to see personal attacks become a part of your strategy. Screw it, I'm on this project to vote and debate, not have Garnett fans be **** to me.

I won't be engaging any Garnett fans from now on, my posts will solely be directed towards posters who aren't already a part of this cult.

Post#49 » by ardee » Sat May 6, 2017 3:21 pm

Reservoirdawgs wrote:
This may very well be the single worst thread in the history of the Player Comparison Board.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums


All I'm trying to do is create an alliance against insanity.

Sent from my SM-J700F using RealGM mobile app

I mean, I'm just saying...

[ardee]

Quite saddening to see personal attacks become a part of your strategy. Screw it, I'm on this project to vote and debate, not have Garnett fans be **** to me.

I won't be engaging any Garnett fans from now on, my posts will solely be directed towards posters who aren't already a part of this cult.

Post#49 » by ardee » Sat May 6, 2017 3:21 pm

Reservoirdawgs wrote:
This may very well be the single worst thread in the history of the Player Comparison Board.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums


All I'm trying to do is create an alliance against insanity.

Sent from my SM-J700F using RealGM mobile app

I mean, I'm just saying...

Saying what? That KG fans would gang up and bully others, like is happening now?

And plz someone fix this thread it's giving me eye problems.

[andrewww]

Jaivl if Im not mistaken you claimed you wouldnt even consider Kobe until after KG/Hakeem/Shaq/Bird got voted in... are you not being closed minded which is what you're accusing ardee of?

I won't argue Kobe myself. Certainly looking for arguments from other people.

That's definitely not what you said at the time. Shall I pull that quote?

[Jaivl]

^ I'm telling you what I meant in MY post. I guess you have the absolute factual truth about that too?

EDIT: Forum is acting funky.

[urnoggin]

Funny thing is that Kobe is actually my favorite player of all time, and I don't even have any particular liking for KG. But what was clear to me from reading through this project is that the pro-KG guys actually provide evidence while ardee is repeating the same things (KG couldn't lead Minny teams to good playoff results, Kobe's casts were just as bad as KG's casts, Garnett's offense drops off in the PS) which I've seen been refuted by plenty of posters. Yet his response is, "idc about the numbers, if you don't believe the same things as me then you're wrong". Simply just ignores evidence that isn't pro-Kobe which is why we are labelling him as close-minded.