Fultz vs. Tatum: What do you think now?

[Edug27]

After the first SL game? Obviously Tatum is going to be a superstar and Fultz will be a good rotational player.

If we picked Fultz instead of Tatum? I would be saying the opposite.

Can't seem to give an unbiased opinion eh?

[jmr07019]

Just rewatched that game winning shot. Tatum had the guy measured. Knew exactly how much space he need to get his shot off. Crazy for such a young kid. A guy with his length who can measure guys and drains shots in their face is gonna be incredibly tough to stop.

[greenmachine_2849]

Green machine, how did you derive a "Jordan/Bowie type situation" out of Bar Fight's initial assertion that if Tatum and Fultz are "comparable players", then Ainge wins the trade?

As a matter of fact, the rest of your post confirms Bar Fight's entire point. He basically says that Fultz will need to be head and shoulders ahead of Tatum altogether for Ainge to truly lose this one ( I'll add that the upcoming pick that came in the trade also needs to flop). That would actually BE the Jordan/Bowie scenario you brought up. You're agreeing with Bar Fight's point, actually; not failing to see his logic...

[/quote]

I failed to see the logic when he said that "all the pressure is on Fultz", which is not true at all. I don't think you will find anybody (outside of Boston) that thought picking Tatum over Fultz was a safe move on Ainge's part. The safe move would have been to just take the consensus number one pick with the number one pick. Ainge did not do that, and now I think the onus is on Tatum/Ainge to prove it was the right decision. If Tatum winds up being the best player to come out of the draft AND Ainge gets another great player with the Lakers pick, he will deserve a place on the Mt. Rushmore of NBA general managers. Conversely, if Fultz winds up the best player by a long shot and the extra pick ultimately busts, Ainge will look extremely foolish in hindsight. Ainge's legacy can swing a good distance either way as a result of how this plays out.

Again, and maybe it is semantics, but I just think Bar Fight is taking a very pro Ainge perspective in how he phrased it. That Ainge made the right move until Fultz proves otherwise. I don't think the vast majority of general NBA followers see it that way.

[tlee324]

So far, so good for Ainge here. Tatum looks like the real deal.

[Daddy 801]

Jazz fan coming in peace.

I'm also a Boston and Bulls fan. Weird, I know, but I lived all over growing up.

While I hate Ainge and Boston in general right now I came to say I think Ainge made the right move with Fultz.

I've been to the summer league games in SLC and Fultz has not blown me away. His video didn't impress me and I wondered why he was a unanimous #1 pick. I got a lot of flack for saying I wasn't impressed. I think his lack of athleticism is going to be a real issue going forward.

I also wanted the Jazz to grab Donovan. He was the one guy I was hoping we would trade to for. So far, I am happy as hell.

While I'm salty as hell at the moment congrats to Boston fans for grabbing Hayward. I think Gasol is a great next piece if you guys can get him without giving up too much.

While I can't be happy at the moment, Boston is my second team and I know once the pain wears off I'll be rooting again. But man, I would not be buying any of you guys a beer if we were sitting at a bar right now.

[Daddy 801]

Oh, I forgot to mention Tatum looks like the real deal. I think he is gonna be one of those guys who just does everything right. In fact I immediately was reminded of Hayward. Not flashy, just damn good. Sorta Grant Hill type of player.

Tatum looks much better than Hayward did his rookie year though.

[CollegeToPros]

Oh, I forgot to mention Tatum looks like the real deal. I think he is gonna be one of those guys who just does everything right. In fact I immediately was reminded of Hayward. Not flashy, just damn good. Sorta Grant Hill type of player.

Tatum looks much better than Hayward did his rookie year though.

Tatum's skills level and IQ is insane. I knew he could score but he is special at making the right play.

[Baller1234a]

Oh, I forgot to mention Tatum looks like the real deal. I think he is gonna be one of those guys who just does everything right. In fact I immediately was reminded of Hayward. Not flashy, just damn good. Sorta Grant Hill type of player.

Tatum looks much better than Hayward did his rookie year though.

Tatum's skills level and IQ is insane. I knew he could score but he is special at making the right play.

Impressed with him

[Daddy 801]

Oh, I forgot to mention Tatum looks like the real deal. I think he is gonna be one of those guys who just does everything right. In fact I immediately was reminded of Hayward. Not flashy, just damn good. Sorta Grant Hill type of player.

Tatum looks much better than Hayward did his rookie year though.

Tatum's skills level and IQ is insane. I knew he could score but he is special at making the right play.

Usually I scout like and get into it. This year I have been busy and didn't bother. It took like two mins of watching summer league (live) for me to see why Ainge did what he did. Tatum is a guaranteed good pick. One of those players that just isn't a gamble. Is there a chance Fultz learns how to overcome his lack of athleticism and becomes a CP3/Lillard player? Yes, there is a chance. But I see almost no down side with Tatum. He screams good rotational player for next 15 years to me. With a chance to be really good with the right work ethic.

And I would bet without hearing the man/boy speak ever he speaks intelligently and clearly. I bet he has unusual interests outside of basketball. I bet he likes to read. I bet he has aspirations already for when he quits basketball. I know that sounds corny. But you can just see it when you see it. They way people carry themselves gives off a ton of info if you know how to look. I'd love to know if my guesses are right. Time will tell.

[CollegeToPros]

Oh, I forgot to mention Tatum looks like the real deal. I think he is gonna be one of those guys who just does everything right. In fact I immediately was reminded of Hayward. Not flashy, just damn good. Sorta Grant Hill type of player.

Tatum looks much better than Hayward did his rookie year though.

Tatum's skills level and IQ is insane. I knew he could score but he is special at making the right play.

Usually I scout like and get into it. This year I have been busy and didn't bother. It took like two mins of watching summer league (live) for me to see why Ainge did what he did. Tatum is a guaranteed good pick. One of those players that just isn't a gamble. Is there a chance Fultz learns how to overcome his lack of athleticism and becomes a CP3/Lillard player? Yes, there is a chance. But I see almost no down side with Tatum. He screams good rotational player for next 15 years to me. With a chance to be really good with the right work ethic.

And I would bet without hearing the man/boy speak ever he speaks intelligently and clearly. I bet he has unusual interests outside of basketball. I bet he likes to read. I bet he has aspirations already for when he quits basketball. I know that sounds corny. But you can just see it when you see it. They way people carry themselves gives off a ton of info if you know how to look. I'd love to know if my guesses are right. Time will tell.

I suggest you join the Celtics fans haha. I've been wanting Tatum for 2 months. I jumped out of my seat when we took him. I posted on twitter about him like crazy. Guess Ainge heard me. Tatum is a polished kid in every sense. On and off the court as you suspect.

[Dr Positivity]

I love the move for you guys. Not going to overreact to summer league but pre draft I had Fultz 9th and Tatum 10th from my model. So getting Lakers pick is awesome value. My model doesn't take into account intangibles which is where I think Tatum could have him beat. Also Tatum's season could have been better than his numbers cause he was coming back from injury.

It wasn't that hard to see why Fultz could be overrated. He is a non elite driving (athleticism), shooting (FT%) or passing prospect. The thing he's the best at? Creating his own shot. He's tall, has lots of herky moves or spins or whatever, and scored a ton of volume in college at average efficiency. However, if he's non elite at driving or shooting, creating his own shot means creating his own midrange. Much like a big man's post skills, you'd rather have it than not... but in modern game the combined value of Fultz defense, shooting, driving, passing is going to be a lot bigger than how good he is at taking midrange shots. Even if Fultz has a long solid career, the comp could be PG Rudy Gay/Harrison Barnes-ing and just scoring midrange shots but isn't RPM friendly player. And I don't think he's a guarantee to be that good either. Bust is in play when you consider his questionable body language etc.

Ainge made the right call but seeing this as a draft where the gap between #1 and the players after was smaller than usual, if existent at all. This wasn't the Anthony Davis draft

[Patsfan1081]

Fultz is looking pretty good scoring the ball, not doing much outside that but I def think that he'll have no problem finding his offense in the pros. So it's still hard to tell, I still worry about Tatum getting enough minutes/touches early on. To be truely effective he'll need to be a first or second option and I'm not sure if that's in the cards for a long time.

[Baller1234a]

Tatum's skills level and IQ is insane. I knew he could score but he is special at making the right play.

Usually I scout like and get into it. This year I have been busy and didn't bother. It took like two mins of watching summer league (live) for me to see why Ainge did what he did. Tatum is a guaranteed good pick. One of those players that just isn't a gamble. Is there a chance Fultz learns how to overcome his lack of athleticism and becomes a CP3/Lillard player? Yes, there is a chance. But I see almost no down side with Tatum. He screams good rotational player for next 15 years to me. With a chance to be really good with the right work ethic.

And I would bet without hearing the man/boy speak ever he speaks intelligently and clearly. I bet he has unusual interests outside of basketball. I bet he likes to read. I bet he has aspirations already for when he quits basketball. I know that sounds corny. But you can just see it when you see it. They way people carry themselves gives off a ton of info if you know how to look. I'd love to know if my guesses are right. Time will tell.

I suggest you join the Celtics fans haha. I've been wanting Tatum for 2 months. I jumped out of my seat when we took him. I posted on twitter about him like crazy. Guess Ainge heard me. Tatum is a polished kid in every sense. On and off the court as you suspect.

Look like the right choice so far

[Baller1234a]

Fultz is looking pretty good scoring the ball, not doing much outside that but I def think that he'll have no problem finding his offense in the pros. So it's still hard to tell, I still worry about Tatum getting enough minutes/touches early on. To be truely effective he'll need to be a first or second option and I'm not sure if that's in the cards for a long time.

Would be on the bench for sure
MS/ROZIER/JB/TATUM/ZIZIC
Def Tatum in that scenario

[Daddy 801]

I love the move for you guys. Not going to overreact to summer league but pre draft I had Fultz 9th and Tatum 10th from my model. So getting Lakers pick is awesome value. My model doesn't take into account intangibles which is where I think Tatum could have him beat. Also Tatum's season could have been better than his numbers cause he was coming back from injury.

It wasn't that hard to see why Fultz could be overrated. He is a non elite driving (athleticism), shooting (FT%) or passing prospect. The thing he's the best at? Creating his own shot. He's tall, has lots of herky moves or spins or whatever, and scored a ton of volume in college at average efficiency. However, if he's non elite at driving or shooting, creating his own shot means creating his own midrange. Much like a big man's post skills, you'd rather have it than not... but in modern game the combined value of Fultz defense, shooting, driving, passing is going to be a lot bigger than how good he is at taking midrange shots. Even if Fultz has a long solid career, the comp could be PG Rudy Gay/Harrison Barnes-ing and just scoring midrange shots but isn't RPM friendly player. And I don't think he's a guarantee to be that good either. Bust is in play when you consider his questionable body language etc.

Ainge made the right call but seeing this as a draft where the gap between #1 and the players after was smaller than usual, if existent at all. This wasn't the Anthony Davis draft

This. Yes.

[Daddy 801]

Fultz is looking pretty good scoring the ball, not doing much outside that but I def think that he'll have no problem finding his offense in the pros. So it's still hard to tell, I still worry about Tatum getting enough minutes/touches early on. To be truely effective he'll need to be a first or second option and I'm not sure if that's in the cards for a long time.

I politely disagree 100%. What makes guys like Tatum, Grant Hill, Hayward, etc so great is they learn and do everything correct. Tatum will have a good plus minus even if he lacks offensive punch. I'd bet money on it. Plus he looks fine offensively.

[Daddy 801]

Tatum's skills level and IQ is insane. I knew he could score but he is special at making the right play.

Usually I scout like and get into it. This year I have been busy and didn't bother. It took like two mins of watching summer league (live) for me to see why Ainge did what he did. Tatum is a guaranteed good pick. One of those players that just isn't a gamble. Is there a chance Fultz learns how to overcome his lack of athleticism and becomes a CP3/Lillard player? Yes, there is a chance. But I see almost no down side with Tatum. He screams good rotational player for next 15 years to me. With a chance to be really good with the right work ethic.

And I would bet without hearing the man/boy speak ever he speaks intelligently and clearly. I bet he has unusual interests outside of basketball. I bet he likes to read. I bet he has aspirations already for when he quits basketball. I know that sounds corny. But you can just see it when you see it. They way people carry themselves gives off a ton of info if you know how to look. I'd love to know if my guesses are right. Time will tell.

I suggest you join the Celtics fans haha. I've been wanting Tatum for 2 months. I jumped out of my seat when we took him. I posted on twitter about him like crazy. Guess Ainge heard me. Tatum is a polished kid in every sense. On and off the court as you suspect.

I don't ever post in the Celtics forum as my main team now is the Jazz. Been in Utah 15 years. Makes sense to follow who I live by. But I got some Celts and Bulls blood in me. Like a bastard conflicted child.

But any poster who was saying grab Tatum gets a tip of the hat from me. Looks like a pros pro. I bet he crushed the interview process. If a draft doesn't have an AD type of guy you do what Ainge did.

[tlee324]

Pierce and Carmelo have been used as comparative players so far, and sure I'm not going to argue against that, but I truly see Allan Houston more than anything, and I don't mean that as a downgrade or insult. I fully respected Allan Houston's game when he was in his prime. Check his 53pt game against a young Kobe... This is obviously an extreme, but I could envision Tatum developing into a player like this someday.

Watch on YouTube

[mr_sunshine]

I love the move for you guys. Not going to overreact to summer league but pre draft I had Fultz 9th and Tatum 10th from my model. So getting Lakers pick is awesome value. My model doesn't take into account intangibles which is where I think Tatum could have him beat. Also Tatum's season could have been better than his numbers cause he was coming back from injury.

It wasn't that hard to see why Fultz could be overrated. He is a non elite driving (athleticism), shooting (FT%) or passing prospect. The thing he's the best at? Creating his own shot. He's tall, has lots of herky moves or spins or whatever, and scored a ton of volume in college at average efficiency. However, if he's non elite at driving or shooting, creating his own shot means creating his own midrange. Much like a big man's post skills, you'd rather have it than not... but in modern game the combined value of Fultz defense, shooting, driving, passing is going to be a lot bigger than how good he is at taking midrange shots. Even if Fultz has a long solid career, the comp could be PG Rudy Gay/Harrison Barnes-ing and just scoring midrange shots but isn't RPM friendly player. And I don't think he's a guarantee to be that good either. Bust is in play when you consider his questionable body language etc.

Ainge made the right call but seeing this as a draft where the gap between #1 and the players after was smaller than usual, if existent at all. This wasn't the Anthony Davis draft

How could you possibly have Fultz and Tatum 9th and 10th? I'm interested to see who you ranked over them.

[Dr Positivity]

I love the move for you guys. Not going to overreact to summer league but pre draft I had Fultz 9th and Tatum 10th from my model. So getting Lakers pick is awesome value. My model doesn't take into account intangibles which is where I think Tatum could have him beat. Also Tatum's season could have been better than his numbers cause he was coming back from injury.

It wasn't that hard to see why Fultz could be overrated. He is a non elite driving (athleticism), shooting (FT%) or passing prospect. The thing he's the best at? Creating his own shot. He's tall, has lots of herky moves or spins or whatever, and scored a ton of volume in college at average efficiency. However, if he's non elite at driving or shooting, creating his own shot means creating his own midrange. Much like a big man's post skills, you'd rather have it than not... but in modern game the combined value of Fultz defense, shooting, driving, passing is going to be a lot bigger than how good he is at taking midrange shots. Even if Fultz has a long solid career, the comp could be PG Rudy Gay/Harrison Barnes-ing and just scoring midrange shots but isn't RPM friendly player. And I don't think he's a guarantee to be that good either. Bust is in play when you consider his questionable body language etc.

Ainge made the right call but seeing this as a draft where the gap between #1 and the players after was smaller than usual, if existent at all. This wasn't the Anthony Davis draft

How could you possibly have Fultz and Tatum 9th and 10th? I'm interested to see who you ranked over them.

My model has a big portion of it being statistically driven so it has some off the wall results, but my top 10 was

1. Josh Jackson
2. Anzejs Pasecniks
3. Jawun Evans
4. Lonzo Ball
5. Dennis Smith, Jr.
6. Cameron Oliver
7. Mathias Lessort
8. Donovan Mitchell
9. Markelle Fultz
10. Jayson Tatum

After Oliver went undrafted and it appears questionable intangibles I'm going to say that ranking is likely to be wrong.

I feel international draft prospects is a market inefficiency and numbers are far more important than reflected by their draft position as of late. Hence you'd had some steals like Gobert and Jokic who had awesome numbers for a Euro player at the time, and guys like Hezonja, Bender, Frank picked high who were struggling on their Euro teams. Because of that Pasecniks and Lessort stand out as the true best internationals for me. This is also a great sign for Zizic.

Evans scored like Fultz and passed like Ball this year if you look at their per minute stats, basically he would be a top 5/10 pick if he was 6'2-6'3. He crushed it statistically, is athletic, can shoot 3s and can pass/is a great pick and roll handler. This idea that "he has everything but he's 2 inches too small, so throw him in the 2nd round" is outdated imo based on success of some players like Isaiah and Kemba...