RealGM Top 100 List 2017 -- #8

[THKNKG]

Saying what? That KG fans would gang up and bully others, like is happening now?

And plz someone fix this thread it's giving me eye problems.

No, I'm not saying that. If you genuinely think I have bullied you, I truly am sorry, as it was never my intention. However, it seems like a persecution complex more than that (again, if it's not this, I am sorry). I was saying it's ironic that you would call the KG supporters a cult, as 1) none of us really like him as a player, and liking the thing you follow is kinda part of being a cult and 2) you yourself claimed to be creating a pro-kobe, anti-KG "alliance." Do you see why I find that ironic and strange?

The KG > Kobe is certainly a minority position. I totally get that. I understand if others disagree with me. It happens - that's life. However, it's frustrating being both a minority and having your factual data dismissed arbitrarily (because that's what it has been - arbitrary). We have presented multiple points of data *with context* about 05-07 Kg, and in spite of all of that, you're choosing to disregard it and go with a combination of the eye test and the presupposition that Kobe > KG no matter what (again, that presupposition is almost a quote from you - you've said very similar). If I have responded to data by casually dismissing it based on my presuppositions, please show me, and I will stop. However, if we (or I) have not, please stop claiming it's "bullying," because it's not.

[eminence]

.

Lol, how did this even happen?

And ardee man, you gotta either toughen up or stop calling anyone who disagrees with you insane or part of a cult.

[Senior]

For at least the 2nd thread in a row, we're having more pro/con- KG posts than, seemingly, all the other posts combined. With much less discussion (pro-/con-) of the player who actually gets "elected".

Hmmm

Yeah, I hope that doesn't happen again - don't really want to see someone like Bird sneaking in before we get to talk about him

also the spoiler tags break the page if they're not used properly, happened to me this morning

[eminence]

1) none of us really like him as a player,

I gotta confess, I do like KG as a player. Growing up AK47/Stockton/Kobe/KG/Jason Williams were my favorites. Lived closest to the Wolves, Jazz were my dads team, Lakers were the only team I'd been to see in person, and well White Chocolate was just cool.

[Narigo]

Vote: Shaquille O'Neal

-Shaq has a long prime that lasted for 13 seasons. 93-05
-GOAT level peak
-Was the best player in the league for a number of years. (00-02). He has a case for being the best player in the league in 95 and 99 also.
-Has huge impact on offense because of his efficient scoring at high volume and is a good low post passer. He draws double or triple teams in the low post which opens up the floor for his teammates. The only way to stop him is to foul him.
-not much of a defensive anchor outside of 2000. But I think he was mostly above average for most of his prime.



Second Vote: Hakeem Olajuwon

[THKNKG]

So, Dirk is absolutely insane too. According to the Jaivl numbers posted a few posts back, there is practically no correlation between team strength and teammate strength with him (even though Kobe/KG have high correlation there). On top of that, from 2001-2011, he had 4 #1 offenses and 1 #2 offense, with an average of 4.1. Here are the numbers:

1
1
1
4
1
2
8
5
10
8

[therealbig3]

So let's just accept that everyone on the 06 Wolves was crap, other than KG and Wally/Davis (they were traded for each other mid-season). Everyone else on that team other than those guys were terrible. Please don't espouse the virtues of Marcus Banks, Marko Jaric, Trenton Hassell, and the Kandiman. Mike James (joined the team in 07) was a crappy player, I really don't know how he's being used as some example of a good player next to KG. Especially when you're going to act like Smush Parker was the worst player ever. Smush Parker was better than Mike James.

As for Ricky Davis, he has always been a guy that makes every team he goes to worse. And Wally Szczerbiak ain't no Lamar Odom, not even close.

This comparison falls apart pretty easily. Kobe's team wasn't very good, and he was an offensive dynamo that year, but Lamar Odom was easily better than anyone KG played with at the time. And on top of that, it's not always about the talent, but how these players are able to gel and what kind of system they run. For whatever reason, regardless of how good you think those players were, they were able to function at a higher level than KG's teammates were able to. I'm pretty sure having Phil Jackson allowed the lesser players on the Lakers to succeed in their roles far more than the Wolves players were able to, and that has nothing to do with Kobe or KG.

BTW, if you want to talk talent, the 07 team had quite a bit more talent playing more minutes: Odom, Walton, Bynum, Vlad, Cook, Farmar. Again, not a great team, but I'd absolutely take that over KG's team.

-Ricky Davis was an efficient 18-5-5 player during his time in Minnesota. Did he have bad habits? Yes. Did he give KG someone to have a 2 man game with? Yes. Did he provide an alternative creator to take the pressure of KG? Yes. Was he perfect? No. But he was still better than anyone Kobe had to help create offense on the perimeter.

-Mike James was awesome the year before he came to Minnesota in 2007. 20 ppg on 59% TS, 45% from 3. I don't know why you seem to think he's horrible. Much better than Smush has ever been. Smush was also a locker-room cancer who openly spoke out against Kobe. None of KG's teammates ever caused problems for him like that.

-Banks, Jaric, Hassell, obviously none of them good players but really not much worse than Cook, rookie Farmar, 2006 and 2007 Sahsa. Also, you mentioned Odom, but he missed over a third of the season in 2007.

-Even if you took the 2006-07 Lakers over the 2006-07 Wolves minus Kobe and KG, the difference is nowhere close to make up the 10-13 more wins Kobe's team racked up over Garnett's.

Dude I don't know what you expect. I'm gonna say those numbers were empty stats, and were not having much impact for the Wolves, and in some ways, actively hurt them.

But I don't know how you expect people to go about "proving" that. Because you completely reject all forms of +/-, or any metric really, that puts those stats in proper context, and then you keep using PPG and TS% to repeat the same point. And then when people try to explain their viewpoint without using +/-, you then accuse them of saying KG has invisible impact and there's NO evidence for anything we're saying. Which isn't true, you're just rejecting everything that isn't Pts/Rbs/Asts/TS%.

You also didn't address my point that looking beyond the talent level, Kobe also had Phil Jackson in his corner, while KG had Dwyane Casey. Kobe had a monstrous coaching advantage on his team compared to KG, which has been proven over and over again throughout history to be a pretty huge deal when it comes to getting the most out of role players. That's probably the main reason why Kobe's teammates contributed more than KG's teammates (and they DID contribute more, that's not all that arguable, you're trying to explain WHY they contributed more...going down this rabbit hole of, no they were actually as bad as KG's teammates doesn't make a lot of sense).

And in general, saying things like "IDC what the numbers say..." isn't a good look.

[ElGee]

Fact is that, no matter what all data says, my big balls have the ultimate truth.

Not even my opinion, it's just a FACT. Deal with it, losers.

K Garnett couldn't get out of first round for years - a total LOOSER. Sad! Pathetic!

[sic]

Some of you guys need to stop derailing the thread even if ardee comes across as having a strong opinion. While his opinion may not be in line with the majority of this project, it doesnt mean its wrong

First of all, I will not have my political humor characterized as derailing.

Secondly, reading "big balls" made me literally laugh out loud.

Third, I feel bad for Ardee. He takes this stuff very seriously. Responded to him quoting me a few pages back but no response. There's a sensitivity that I can relate to that is hard to navigate -- he calls us "insane" and a "cult" for our basketball analysis but then when I make a joke about someone else thinks I'm bullying him. That's a tough spot to be in. Ardee, I feel you brother. Go hit a BP PR right now and you'll feel better.

But see both sides here:

There are disagreements and biased posters and strange methods all over this place. When people are treated with respect it's smooth sailing. What's rubbing people the wrong way (and has already been explained) is stuff like "this project is a disgrace for voting X" or "no respected person has KG ranked so high." Can you see how that might bother some people?

[eminence]

So, Dirk is absolutely insane too. According to the Jaivl numbers posted a few posts back, there is practically no correlation between team strength and teammate strength with him (even though Kobe/KG have high correlation there). On top of that, from 2001-2011, he had 4 #1 offenses and 1 #2 offense, with an average of 4.1. Here are the numbers:

1
1
1
4
1
2
8
5
10
8

Just to note: That's not necessarily a good thing, it could just as easily mean his teams didn't improve as his teammates got better(poor scaling). Eg a 1.31 average RAPM in '08 with only a 4.7 SRS is not particularly impressive just from looking at Jaivl's chart.

Not saying that that's true either. Just saying that a non-correlation isn't necessarily a good thing, just a weird thing.

Overall I suspect it's just an inherently noisy approach, wouldn't take too much from it. (not that it's a bad thing either, and I appreciate that Jaivl threw it together!)

[therealbig3]

Go hit a BP PR right now and you'll feel better.

If you somehow got the acronym wrong (unless you're referring to something else), Pabst Blue Ribbon will just make him feel worse.

What an awful beer.

[THKNKG]

So, Dirk is absolutely insane too. According to the Jaivl numbers posted a few posts back, there is practically no correlation between team strength and teammate strength with him (even though Kobe/KG have high correlation there). On top of that, from 2001-2011, he had 4 #1 offenses and 1 #2 offense, with an average of 4.1. Here are the numbers:

1
1
1
4
1
2
8
5
10
8

Just to note: That's not necessarily a good thing, it could just as easily mean his teams didn't improve as his teammates got better(poor scaling). Eg a 1.31 average RAPM in '08 with only a 4.7 SRS is not particularly impressive just from looking at Jaivl's chart.

Not saying that that's true either. Just saying that a non-correlation isn't necessarily a good thing, just a weird thing.

Overall I suspect it's just an inherently noisy approach, wouldn't take too much from it. (not that it's a bad thing either, and I appreciate that Jaivl threw it together!)

Yeah that's true, certainly not enough data to make a bold claim either way. It is impressive, in the other hand, looking at the top offenses he had some years with the talent around him. I've never been super high on him, but he's on the rise in my mind.

[trex_8063]

Vote: Shaq like last time. Same reasoning.

2nd Hakeem

In the future, please at least copy those arguments over. That way if someone wants to see your reasoning and respond, they don't have to go hunting for it.

[Senior]

Go hit a BP PR right now and you'll feel better.

If you somehow got the acronym wrong (unless you're referring to something else), Pabst Blue Ribbon will just make him feel worse.

What an awful beer.

You guys spelled water wrong

[ardee]

Go hit a BP PR right now and you'll feel better.

If you somehow got the acronym wrong (unless you're referring to something else), Pabst Blue Ribbon will just make him feel worse.

What an awful beer.

It was a strange post, seemed like he was trying to psychoanalyse me over my Kobe vs. KG arguments.

But I'm pretty sure he meant bench press personal record, which is something I'd be more likely to do since I don't drink

[Colbinii]

Go hit a BP PR right now and you'll feel better.

If you somehow got the acronym wrong (unless you're referring to something else), Pabst Blue Ribbon will just make him feel worse.

What an awful beer.

It is Bench Press Personal Record.

I hit my DL PR on Monday

[Jaivl]

So, Dirk is absolutely insane too. According to the Jaivl numbers posted a few posts back, there is practically no correlation between team strength and teammate strength with him (even though Kobe/KG have high correlation there). On top of that, from 2001-2011, he had 4 #1 offenses and 1 #2 offense, with an average of 4.1. Here are the numbers:

1
1
1
4
1
2
8
5
10
8

Just to note: That's not necessarily a good thing, it could just as easily mean his teams didn't improve as his teammates got better(poor scaling). Eg a 1.31 average RAPM in '08 with only a 4.7 SRS is not particularly impressive just from looking at Jaivl's chart.

Not saying that that's true either. Just saying that a non-correlation isn't necessarily a good thing, just a weird thing.

Overall I suspect it's just an inherently noisy approach, wouldn't take too much from it. (not that it's a bad thing either, and I appreciate that Jaivl threw it together!)

Some of that's definitely on the method (lazy, as everything I do!). It's giving 03 & 04 Nash a +6 impact. It values rookie years same as prime years. Only counts the top 8 teammates in minutes. Etc.

That being said, the overall correlation to team SRS is still very high and I would say it's certainly valuable info.

[ardee]

Go hit a BP PR right now and you'll feel better.

If you somehow got the acronym wrong (unless you're referring to something else), Pabst Blue Ribbon will just make him feel worse.

What an awful beer.

It is Bench Press Personal Record.

I hit my DL PR on Monday

How much? I am scheduled for a 325x3 squat tomorrow.

[therealbig3]

Oh god, jock lingo. I think I'd prefer that Pabst Blue Ribbon.

[andrewww]

So let's just accept that everyone on the 06 Wolves was crap, other than KG and Wally/Davis (they were traded for each other mid-season). Everyone else on that team other than those guys were terrible. Please don't espouse the virtues of Marcus Banks, Marko Jaric, Trenton Hassell, and the Kandiman. Mike James (joined the team in 07) was a crappy player, I really don't know how he's being used as some example of a good player next to KG. Especially when you're going to act like Smush Parker was the worst player ever. Smush Parker was better than Mike James.

As for Ricky Davis, he has always been a guy that makes every team he goes to worse. And Wally Szczerbiak ain't no Lamar Odom, not even close.

This comparison falls apart pretty easily. Kobe's team wasn't very good, and he was an offensive dynamo that year, but Lamar Odom was easily better than anyone KG played with at the time. And on top of that, it's not always about the talent, but how these players are able to gel and what kind of system they run. For whatever reason, regardless of how good you think those players were, they were able to function at a higher level than KG's teammates were able to. I'm pretty sure having Phil Jackson allowed the lesser players on the Lakers to succeed in their roles far more than the Wolves players were able to, and that has nothing to do with Kobe or KG.

BTW, if you want to talk talent, the 07 team had quite a bit more talent playing more minutes: Odom, Walton, Bynum, Vlad, Cook, Farmar. Again, not a great team, but I'd absolutely take that over KG's team.

-Ricky Davis was an efficient 18-5-5 player during his time in Minnesota. Did he have bad habits? Yes. Did he give KG someone to have a 2 man game with? Yes. Did he provide an alternative creator to take the pressure of KG? Yes. Was he perfect? No. But he was still better than anyone Kobe had to help create offense on the perimeter.

-Mike James was awesome the year before he came to Minnesota in 2007. 20 ppg on 59% TS, 45% from 3. I don't know why you seem to think he's horrible. Much better than Smush has ever been. Smush was also a locker-room cancer who openly spoke out against Kobe. None of KG's teammates ever caused problems for him like that.

-Banks, Jaric, Hassell, obviously none of them good players but really not much worse than Cook, rookie Farmar, 2006 and 2007 Sahsa. Also, you mentioned Odom, but he missed over a third of the season in 2007.

-Even if you took the 2006-07 Lakers over the 2006-07 Wolves minus Kobe and KG, the difference is nowhere close to make up the 10-13 more wins Kobe's team racked up over Garnett's.

Dude I don't know what you expect. I'm gonna say those numbers were empty stats, and were not having much impact for the Wolves, and in some ways, actively hurt them.

But I don't know how you expect people to go about "proving" that. Because you completely reject all forms of +/-, or any metric really, that puts those stats in proper context, and then you keep using PPG and TS% to repeat the same point. And then when people try to explain their viewpoint without using +/-, you then accuse them of saying KG has invisible impact and there's NO evidence for anything we're saying. Which isn't true, you're just rejecting everything that isn't Pts/Rbs/Asts/TS%.

You also didn't address my point that looking beyond the talent level, Kobe also had Phil Jackson in his corner, while KG had Dwyane Casey. Kobe had a monstrous coaching advantage on his team compared to KG, which has been proven over and over again throughout history to be a pretty huge deal when it comes to getting the most out of role players. That's probably the main reason why Kobe's teammates contributed more than KG's teammates (and they DID contribute more, that's not all that arguable, you're trying to explain WHY they contributed more...going down this rabbit hole of, no they were actually as bad as KG's teammates doesn't make a lot of sense).

And in general, saying things like "IDC what the numbers say..." isn't a good look.

How exactly did the 06 Lakers' cast contribute more than KG's cast? Those +/- numbers and/or RAPM numbers have way too many variables to draw any definitive conclusions either way.

This is just another narrative drawn up to prop up KG and bring down Bean's one man army, which Phil approved of during the RS and he scaled back accordingly against PHX in the first round when required by Phil. When your cast is THAT bad not even Phil or Pop can save you.

[trex_8063]

Thru post #213:

Shaquille O'Neal - 10 (trex_8063, Tesla, scabbarista, RCM88x, oldschooled, Narigo, mischievous, Hornet Mania, BasketballFan7, 2klegend)
Kevin Garnett - 5 (micahclay, Jaivl, eminence, drza, Doctor MJ)
Hakeem Olajuwon - 3 (andrewww, janmagn, Joao Saraiva)
Larry Bird - 3 (wojoaderge, Winsome Gerbil, Outside)
Kobe Bryant - 2 (ardee, JordansBulls)
George Mikan -1 (penbeast0)
Julius Erving - 1 (Pablo Novi)

25 votes in all, so player needs 13 to have a majority. Mikan and Erving are eliminated from contention, secondary votes transferring to Hakeem and Kobe, respectively. New totals:

Shaq - 10
Garnett - 5
Hakeem - 4
Bird - 3
Kobe - 3

Still no majority, so Kobe and Bird are eliminated. Secondary votes transfer (+2 to Shaq, +1 to Hakeem, the others become "ghost votes" as they're cast for players already eliminated).

Shaq - 12
Garnett - 5
Hakeem - 5


This becomes an interesting scenario, as I'd next have to eliminate BOTH of Hakeem and Garnett, as they're equal at 5 votes each, leaving only Shaq, making him the default winner. fwiw, if I eliminated just one of them, Shaq would get two more secondary votes (bringing him to 14: a majority) anyway.

So I'm calling this one for Shaq. Will have the next up shortly.

@ ardee, Jaivl, others: although some great stuff has been posted in the course of your arguments, it's bordering on derail and getting a bit personal toward the end. If you can't keep it mature and useful and of a non-personal nature, just disengage.

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