RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #9

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RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #9 

Post#1 » by trex_8063 » Wed Jul 5, 2017 10:34 pm

2017 List
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Lebron James
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Magic Johnson
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. ????

Go!

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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #9 

Post#2 » by wojoaderge » Wed Jul 5, 2017 10:58 pm

I'm reprising my first place vote selection from the last thread. Of all those remaining, Larry Bird is the player with the most seasons as the best player in the league and the most championships won as his team's clear first option. The only other player left who could possibly match him is my second choice . . . George Mikan. A little more on him later . . .


1 - Larry Bird
2 - George Mikan
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #9 

Post#3 » by Gibson22 » Wed Jul 5, 2017 11:07 pm

Ardee and JordanBulls are the first ones to vote Kobe.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #9 

Post#4 » by 2klegend » Wed Jul 5, 2017 11:07 pm

I'm going to take a while to cast my vote for #9. Hopefully the KG camp doesn't screw up my projection. I don't think KG has any business being in a top 10 when he can't even anchor an offensive championship level team, has inconsistent playoff performance, and known to miss the playoff 3 years in the roll in his prime.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #9 

Post#5 » by Narigo » Wed Jul 5, 2017 11:15 pm

Vote: Hakeem Olajuwon
Second Vote: Karl Malone


This is from my personal POY project. With the exception of 1991 and 1998, Hakeem has been a top 10 player from 1985 to 1999.

Spoiler:
1985
1.Larry Bird
2.Magic Johnson
3.Michael Jordan
4.Kareem Abdul Jabbar
5.Isiah Thomas
6.Sidney Moncrief
7.Paul Pressey
8.Hakeem Olajuwon
9.Moses Malone
10.Terry Cummings

1986
1.Larry Bird
2.Magic Johnson
3.Hakeem Olajuwon
4.Kareem Abdul Jabbar
5.Kevin Mchale
6.Charles Barkley
7.Sidney Moncrief
8.Isiah Thomas
9.Dominique Wilkins
10.Adrian Dantley


1987
1.Magic Johnson
2.Michael Jordan
3.Larry Bird
4.Hakeem Olajuwon
5.Charles Barkley
6.Kevin Mchale
7.Dominique Wilkins
8.Fat Lever
9.Clyde Drexler
10.Larry Nance

1988
1.Michael Jordan
2.Larry Bird
3.Magic Johnson
4.Charles Barkley
5.Clyde Drexler
6.John Stockton
7.Hakeem Olajuwon
8.Fat Lever
9.Pattrick Ewing
10.Dominique Wilkins



1989
1.Michael Jordan
2.Magic Johnson
3.Karl Malone
4.Charles Barkley
5.Hakeem Olajuwon
6.John Stockton
7.Patrick Ewing
8.Clyde Drexler
9.Kevin Johnson
10.Mark Price

1990
1.Michael Jordan
2.Magic Johnson
3.Charles Barkley
4.Hakeem Olajuwon
5.David Robinson
6.Karl Malone
7.Patrick Ewing
8.Clyde Drexler
9.Kevin Johnson
10.John Stockton

1991
1.Michael Jordan
2.Magic Johnson
3.David Robinson
4.Charles Barkley
5.Karl Malone
6.Clyde Drexler
7.Scottie Pippen
8.John Stockton
9.Patrick Ewing
10.Kevin Johnson


1992
1.Michael Jordan
2.Karl Malone
3.Clyde Drexler
4.David Robinson
5.Scottie Pippen
6.John Stockton
7.Patrick Ewing
8.Brad Daugherty
9.Hakeem Olajuwon
10.Dennis Rodman

1993
1.Michael Jordan
2.Hakeem Olajuwon
3.Charles Barkley
4.Karl Malone
5.David Robinson
6.Patrick Ewing
7.Brad Daugherty
8.John Stockton
9.Mark Price
10.Shaquille O'Neal

1994
1.Hakeem Olajuwon
2.David Robinson
3.Shaquille O'Neal
4.Scottie Pippen
5.Patrick Ewing
6.Karl Malone
7.John Stockton
8.Shawn Kemp
9.Mark Price
10.Reggie Miller

1995
1.Hakeem Olajuwon
2.Shaquille O'Neal
3.David Robinson
4.Karl Malone
5.John Stockton
6.Charles Barkley
7.Scottie Pippen
8.Gary Payton
9.Penny Hardaway
10.Clyde Drexler

1996
1.Michael Jordan
2.David Robinson
3.Karl Malone
4.Hakeem Olajuwon
5.Penny Hardaway
6.Scottie Pippen
7.John Stockton
8.Shaquille O'Neal
9.Gary Payton
10.Shawn Kemp


1997
1.Michael Jordan
2.Karl Malone
3.Grant Hill
4.Scottie Pippen
5.John Stockton
6.Gary Payton
7.Tim Hardaway
8.Hakeem Olajuwon
9.Alonzo Mourning
10.Kevin Johnson

1998
1.Michael Jordan
2.Karl Malone
3.Shaquille O'Neal
4.David Robinson
5.Tim Duncan
6.Reggie Miller
7.Gary Payton
8.Alonzo Mourning
9.Tim Hardaway
10.Grant Hill

1999
1.Shaquille O'Neal
2.Tim Duncan
3.Alonzo Mouring
4.David Robinson
5.Karl Malone
6.Grant Hill
7.Kevin Garnett
8.Jason Kidd
9.Hakeem Olajuwon
10.Gary Payton


Not only Hakeem has a excellent peak and prime but he was playing at a all-star level for 15 years
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #9 

Post#6 » by Gibson22 » Wed Jul 5, 2017 11:18 pm

Shaq at 6, and wilt behind TD are really bad to me. 9 and 10 should be Bird and Hakeem. KG over Bird would be..
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #9 

Post#7 » by eminence » Wed Jul 5, 2017 11:19 pm

Narigo wrote:.


Hmm, I think that's the highest I've seen someone on Hakeem's post '95 years (or at least it's significantly higher than I am on those years). Mind giving some of your thoughts on those years?

On Malone, I think I feel similarly to how ardee feels about KG, so let's just avoid that subject :)
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #9 

Post#8 » by Winsome Gerbil » Wed Jul 5, 2017 11:46 pm

9) Bird
10) Hakeem

I'll find a way to repackage my last post on Bird, but with Shaq gone, NONE of these remaining guys had the stature of Larry Bird.
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Re: RE: Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #9 

Post#9 » by ardee » Wed Jul 5, 2017 11:54 pm

Narigo wrote:Vote: Hakeem Olajuwon
Second Vote: Karl Malone


This is from my personal POY project. With the exception of 1991 and 1998, Hakeem has been a top 10 player from 1985 to 1999.

Spoiler:
1985
1.Larry Bird
2.Magic Johnson
3.Michael Jordan
4.Kareem Abdul Jabbar
5.Isiah Thomas
6.Sidney Moncrief
7.Paul Pressey
8.Hakeem Olajuwon
9.Moses Malone
10.Terry Cummings

1986
1.Larry Bird
2.Magic Johnson
3.Hakeem Olajuwon
4.Kareem Abdul Jabbar
5.Kevin Mchale
6.Charles Barkley
7.Sidney Moncrief
8.Isiah Thomas
9.Dominique Wilkins
10.Adrian Dantley


1987
1.Magic Johnson
2.Michael Jordan
3.Larry Bird
4.Hakeem Olajuwon
5.Charles Barkley
6.Kevin Mchale
7.Dominique Wilkins
8.Fat Lever
9.Clyde Drexler
10.Larry Nance

1988
1.Michael Jordan
2.Larry Bird
3.Magic Johnson
4.Charles Barkley
5.Clyde Drexler
6.John Stockton
7.Hakeem Olajuwon
8.Fat Lever
9.Pattrick Ewing
10.Dominique Wilkins



1989
1.Michael Jordan
2.Magic Johnson
3.Karl Malone
4.Charles Barkley
5.Hakeem Olajuwon
6.John Stockton
7.Patrick Ewing
8.Clyde Drexler
9.Kevin Johnson
10.Mark Price

1990
1.Michael Jordan
2.Magic Johnson
3.Charles Barkley
4.Hakeem Olajuwon
5.David Robinson
6.Karl Malone
7.Patrick Ewing
8.Clyde Drexler
9.Kevin Johnson
10.John Stockton

1991
1.Michael Jordan
2.Magic Johnson
3.David Robinson
4.Charles Barkley
5.Karl Malone
6.Clyde Drexler
7.Scottie Pippen
8.John Stockton
9.Patrick Ewing
10.Kevin Johnson


1992
1.Michael Jordan
2.Karl Malone
3.Clyde Drexler
4.David Robinson
5.Scottie Pippen
6.John Stockton
7.Patrick Ewing
8.Brad Daugherty
9.Hakeem Olajuwon
10.Dennis Rodman

1993
1.Michael Jordan
2.Hakeem Olajuwon
3.Charles Barkley
4.Karl Malone
5.David Robinson
6.Patrick Ewing
7.Brad Daugherty
8.John Stockton
9.Mark Price
10.Shaquille O'Neal

1994
1.Hakeem Olajuwon
2.David Robinson
3.Shaquille O'Neal
4.Scottie Pippen
5.Patrick Ewing
6.Karl Malone
7.John Stockton
8.Shawn Kemp
9.Mark Price
10.Reggie Miller

1995
1.Hakeem Olajuwon
2.Shaquille O'Neal
3.David Robinson
4.Karl Malone
5.John Stockton
6.Charles Barkley
7.Scottie Pippen
8.Gary Payton
9.Penny Hardaway
10.Clyde Drexler

1996
1.Michael Jordan
2.David Robinson
3.Karl Malone
4.Hakeem Olajuwon
5.Penny Hardaway
6.Scottie Pippen
7.John Stockton
8.Shaquille O'Neal
9.Gary Payton
10.Shawn Kemp


1997
1.Michael Jordan
2.Karl Malone
3.Grant Hill
4.Scottie Pippen
5.John Stockton
6.Gary Payton
7.Tim Hardaway
8.Hakeem Olajuwon
9.Alonzo Mourning
10.Kevin Johnson

1998
1.Michael Jordan
2.Karl Malone
3.Shaquille O'Neal
4.David Robinson
5.Tim Duncan
6.Reggie Miller
7.Gary Payton
8.Alonzo Mourning
9.Tim Hardaway
10.Grant Hill

1999
1.Shaquille O'Neal
2.Tim Duncan
3.Alonzo Mouring
4.David Robinson
5.Karl Malone
6.Grant Hill
7.Kevin Garnett
8.Jason Kidd
9.Hakeem Olajuwon
10.Gary Payton


Not only Hakeem has a excellent peak and prime but he was playing at a all-star level for 15 years

Mind posting 2000-2017? Curious.

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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #9 

Post#10 » by Joao Saraiva » Thu Jul 6, 2017 12:07 am

I'm going to vote for Hakeem definitely.

Tomorrow I'll look a bit deeper on my alternate vote. Possibly going with Kobe or Bird. Leaning towards Kobe tough. Feel like bashing the Celtics a bit after they took Hayward from us! :lol:

Just kidding. It's more of a prime/peak advantage from Bird vs playoff consistency from Kobe.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #9 

Post#11 » by penbeast0 » Thu Jul 6, 2017 12:21 am

My default vote is still George Mikan. Yes, he played in a smaller, appreciably weaker NBA without the great black stars of his day. However, he dominated his league in a way that no one left, not even Shaq, matches. I am willing to switch my vote if (a) someone does a good analysis of his impact v. that of Shaq/Hakeem or (b) someone convinces me that Bird/Kobe/other deserves to be in ahead of Shaq/Hakeem. It's a bit of a cheat since I know he has no support, but I want him to be in the conversation. I did a post once comparing him to prime Jordan by (simple version) adjusting his stats for pace and league norms and he scored nearly as much (within 2 points), dominated rebounding (of course), had similar assists, and with his high foul draw, good FT shooting, and the low average fg% of his era, was more efficient than Jordan relative to league as well. Add to that what contemporaries say about his defensive impact (also above Jordan) and you have a truly dominant player. Of course, then you have to discount for his era . . . figure the talent of about 1 division in Jordan's day, and even less today where the league has greatly expanded it's talent base but compared to other centers, even in Mikan's day, if you were close to 7 foot tall, you at least considered a basketball career so the talent differential is less than at other positions.

Alternate: Hakeem. Why? Playoffs.
Hakeem separated himself from Kevin Garnett and David Robinson; Moses and Karl Malone just don't have the defensive impact while their playoff offense doesn't create enough differential to separate themselves from Hakeem. Those are my other top bigs left. Curious how everyone else sees them compared to Mikan.
Bird, Julius, Kobe, Oscar, and West are the other players I am considering here.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #9 

Post#12 » by JordansBulls » Thu Jul 6, 2017 12:28 am

Code: Select all

 
              HCA(50+)/non-50                 
Olajuwon:     4-0 / 5-2           
Bird:         10-6 / 14-1         
Tmac:         0-2 / 0-0           
Kobe:         18-2 / 7-0         
Wade:         3-2/ 13-0           





Code: Select all

 vs 50 win teams/non-50 win teams
Garnett:   3-2  (60%) /6-0 (100%)
Dirk:      6-2 (75%)  /2-1 (67%)
Malone:    4-4 (50%)  /8-2 (80%)
Barkley:   2-1 (67%)  /8-1 (89%)


Hakeem with 1 MVP, 2 Finals MVP's, 1 DPOY, 2 Titles
Bird with 3 MVP's, 2 Finals MVP's, 3 Titles
Kobe with 1 MVP, 2 Finals MVP's, 5 Titles
Dirk with 1 MVP, 1 Finals MVP, 1 Title
Garnett with 1 MVP, 1 DPOY, 1 Title

1st Vote: Kobe Bryant
2nd Vote: Larry Bird
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #9 

Post#13 » by THKNKG » Thu Jul 6, 2017 12:58 am

Anyone have Dirk over Kobe and Bird? A few things I think could be in his favor:

1. Longevity (over Bird)
2. Gravity (over both, and over everyone in history IMO)
3. Consistently superior offensive impact to Kobe (by RAPM standards)
4. Led a multiplicity of top offenses
5. I'm not convinced that any offensive player has a clear advantage over him
6. He has a more resilient offensive game vs tough defenses/PS defenses than Duncan/KG/Kobe - he's in the Shaq tier of resilience

Those aren't dogmatic statements, so don't take them that way. I'd just like to hear discussion, as he tends to rank out of the top 10 pretty easily, but his peak PS run, prime, etc. all match up with pretty much anyone.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #9 

Post#14 » by rebirthoftheM » Thu Jul 6, 2017 1:43 am

Shaq is finally in (should have been higher IMO. Defs over Magic) so I think it is time to start raising Kobe’s case.

For the moment, I wanted to give a recap of Kobe’s brilliant strengths as an offensive player, and why he was the best offensive player in the NBA between 06-08, despite his box score stats never really reflecting this. I won’t be focusing on any negatives here because again, this whole board is littered with it and I’m sure will come up again very soon. I will be using some screen-caps from Kobe’s Peak (06) to support this analysis., noting that Kobe by 01 had developed about 90% of his offensive arsenal. The only changes that occurred was that he relied on the 3 ball more, honed his post game a bit, and was a better finisher in his younger years.

Will be dealing with his offensive attraction+ offensive adaptability+ offensive playoff resilience abilities (which he has over Dirk IMO against high level defenses) in later posts. But for the moment, I will focus on his skill-set.

Note: I will try and deal with Kobe’s alleged below average defense through out the years, and why I feel this is severely overblown and misleading another time. But now is not the time.


Kobe’s Offensive Skill-Set

A lot has been made about other players (Dirk has been raised, as well as KG). elite skill-sets and how this translated to elite offensive impact. Put simply, if a player has a highly diversified skill-set, he provides his team with elite flexibility and resilience, particularly in the PS when teams naturally exert more effort in scouting their opponents. It allows them to continuously find gaps in defences where none seemingly exist or are quite limited. Elite offensive skill-sets provide a counter to pretty much any adjustment a defense can make.

Kobe, and I doubt even his detractors would disagree, had one of the greatest offensive skill-sets in modern history, and while arguably not being the GOAT in any single category, was able to combine these skills together to produce an ATG, GOAT level offense skill-set for a perimeter player.

There simply wasn’t an area on offense where it could be said he wasn’t great/very good at. Drive right and left at a high proficiency and create at an elite level off the dribble? Check. Ability to finish with both hands? Check. Midrange-game? Check. Ability to score from pretty much any position from the 3 point line onwards on the floor? Check. Serviceable 3-point game which provided his teammates spacing on the court? Excellent post game? Check. Interior finishing? Check. Ability to get into the seams into defences and make plays for himself and his teammates whilst limiting his turnovers? Check. P & R and P & P offense? Check. Ability to finish in transition? Check. Excellent footwork? Check. Elite off-the ball play (though not MJ Level)? Check. Elite free-throw shooter? Check. Playmaking abilities off the dribble, as well as feeding big-men at their sweet spots as well as slashers? Check.

What this refined skill-set meant in concrete terms was that Kobe, and indeed his teams, displayed a high level of offensive resilience against different schemes (save some historical/Goat defenses from Detroit in 04 in the GOAT defensive era when he clearly was not in prime physical condition) which allowed his teams to flourish offensively in the half court and which did not compromise their collectively ability to play defense on the other hand (think limiting transition opportunities thus allowing his teams to set up on the other hand+ ability to produce elite offenses with plodding big-men who in exchange could hold the fort down on D). The fact that Kobe’s teams had such a high success rate in the playoffs and that he anchored/co-anchored many thunderously dominant teams facing stiff competition (with the 01 Lakers PS team arguably the best offensive team of all time when you consider the defenses faced), to me is no surprise, when you consider Kobe’s wide ranging skill-set.

For example, If defences decided to zone him, or were determined to keep him outside of the paint (say v the Spurs in the 08), this would open-up his midrange his jumper in isolation, off the dribble and off screens, as was displayed in the 09 playoffs where Kobe’s volume/efficiency/assisted levels were at a ridiculously high level through-out this run. If teams decided to zone up Kobe on the wing, he would swing the ball back out and then re-post again to quickly hit a turn-around jumper before the defense could get to him or if not possible, hit a cutter or a shooter off the double (something only MJ did better than Kobe). If he was doubled, he could at an elite level attack this double and still score- a skill IMHO that only MJ matched.

If teams decided to man up on him, say because he had shooters on the court, or another ATG gravity dude like Shaq on the Court, Kobe would proficiently work on his 10-23 feet game, break down defenses for quick finish, and also get the ball into Shaq for dumps. If a defender was playing him particularly aggressively, Kobe would craftily draw fouls on him, as evidenced best by Kobe’s high FTA attempts despite being a high volume jump-shooter, or use a variety of fakes and hesitation dribbles to get free. If teams were fronting him in the post/denying the ball, he’d wrestle with defenders or aggressively pursue it off-ball, allowing him to catch it from distances he was lethal at. If teams decided to trap him off the P & R, he would slit excellent passes to his big (hell even Kwame Brown benefited from this when he wanted to) who would get an open 15 footer/open shot or who would hit another slasher or shooter for a score/FTAs. His refined skill-set also allowed him to act as a spacer for his teammates- take for his example LO getting many isolated post opportunities off a feed by Kobe in the two man game because teams were afraid to leave Kobe open, or Pau Gasol getting many clean post opportunities in the two man game with him. This was particularly important to the great resilient Laker offenses we saw in the late 00s.

Kobe’s refined offensive skill-set made him a consistent threat on the basketball court, and combined with his unyielding pressure on defenses, opened up the game for himself and his teammates. He was without a doubt one the elite of elites in this respect, and for all the praises given to other players for their skill-sets, this is one of Kobe’s strengths where sans Jordan, he has a strong case against anyone.

Separating the Lakers team success in the 00s from Kobe’s mode of operation on the court IMO reflects a profound ignorance of basketball. Great things tend to happen when you have a player with Kobe’s IQ and skill-set on the court. He didn’t luck into success. He, like any other great player, created it on the court by his mere presence.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #9 

Post#15 » by rebirthoftheM » Thu Jul 6, 2017 1:44 am

Kobe’s Offensive Attraction

I think I can confidently say, that pre Steph Curry 3 ball era, Kobe’s ability to attract defenders, thereby opening his team’s offense, was not at all inferior to any other ATG gravity players (actually I’d give peak/prime Shaq the nod), and was definitely superior to some of his contemporaries whose gravity is often lauded. Again, this is intertwined with his refined skill-set, his unyielding pressure, but most importantly, the perception by opposing defenses that he was a threat from everywhere on the court. We can call it an aura of some sorts, but Kobe’s reputation as a fearless offensive machine fed heavily into how teams guarded him and his teams.

I was reviewing some of Kobe’s games from 06, and even a novice could recognize the level of impact he was having and how opposing teams perceived his offensive danger. I will be focussing on 06 here, because it was Kobe’s peak, but I should note that despite the consistency and level of intensity of the defenses he faced dropping when he got better teammates, he nevertheless still garnered heavy attention during the Gasol years (I might do a screen-cap run on this if it becomes an issue).

But going back to 06, the +18.9 on offense that he posted was no aberration at all. Kobe was the only dude on that squad that possessed anything resembling a well- rounded offensive skill-set. Here are some screen-caps (and no not cherry picking- literally this was routinely occurring in 8-9 games I watched and took notes down of, and it supports my memory of the 60 odd games I was able to catch in 06. Only a few games are on Youtube so this is what I was left with, and I selected numerous examples to make my point). Apologies on some of the capture quality here, as I was screen-capping from old Youtube clips.

Image

Caption 1 (Lakers v Mavs December 2005): Kobe from the start being doubled by the Mavs and in this case Dirk leaving his man completely. Typical of the defenses he faced. Kobe ended up swinging the ball out to Smush, reposting and then hitting a turnaround before the double team could come again. An excellent example of Kobe’s ability to attract defenders+ his high IQ on the ball.

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Caption 2: An example of how crowded Kobe’s lanes would become off the dribble. Note Kwame, a useless offensive player most nights is rolling to the rim, but nobody feared him because he had no jumpshot and was not a very good finisher. LO was moving along the baseline 3 point line with Dirk simply ignoring him. Kobe in the end, used his strength against Daniels, ran right into the help on left wing and rose over with a tough runner.

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Caption 3: We see Kobe attracting two on ball defenders, with Dirk shading off Luke Walton to help, and a player in the interior (bad quality so I cant remember who) also watching Kobe. Kobe in this play hit the open Kwame with the pass, who then hit a cutting Luke Walton for a lay-up (or a foul- can’t remember which). Kobe generated this entire play from his gravity, part of his many ‘hockey assists’ in the triangle that encouraged such ball movement. This is an example of a switch the Mavs made at half time after Kobe annihilated them in the first half for 27 points- they began to double him as quickly as possible, something the Mavs announcers were hollering about all through the first half.

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Caption 4: Kobe breaks down the Mavs defense off the dribble. We see the entire Mavs defense swarm. Kobe hit Devean George in the left corner for a 3 (his hand is up) who badly bricked the shot.

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Caption 5: Kobe once again forcing the Mavs to collapse on him because of his great prime first step. Again, Kobe hits Devean George on his right who clanks once again. Kobe was a more of a threat to the Mavs than an open 3 it appears, even down the stretch.

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Caption 6: This is from a game in January 06 in which the Lakers lost. Again, the visuals say it all. First quarter again. The suns from the get-go decided they were going to front Kobe on the wing and in the post all game, and force his teammates to beat them by shooting- something they unfortunately rarely capitalized on and did not capitalize on that night (Kobe had a rough night shooting for the record- Suns really did a good job in getting him out of sweet spots+ his perimeter game was just off).

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Caption 7: Marion (behind Kobe in the visual) in this play ignores Sasha Vujacic on the perimeter, and instead focuses his efforts to help against Kobe. Diaw likewise is watching Kobe, leaving Smush semi-open. This again was typical.

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Caption 8: Attention galore. Sasha Vujacic being ignored again because despite getting open shots every night, could never hit them at a high enough percentage to warrant attention as a spacer.

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Caption 9: Kobe again swarmed. In this particular play, he swung the ball to Smush behind to his corner left, who then hit Chris Mihm for the jumper. Kobe once again generating open shots from the attraction he routinely garnered.

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Caption 10: Kobe again swarmed. Open Dunk for Mihm.

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Caption 11: Swarmed again. Mihm clanks the open jumper on the wing. LO wide Open- again because teams did not feel threatened by his 3 point game at all.

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Caption 12: Kobe being doubled off the ball, despite Marion and Raja bell being on the court. Again, this was not a very rare scenario at all, particularly down the stretch when Kobe would receive absurd levels of attention.

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Caption 13: Lakers v Kings in March 2006. Only first half footage available. Artest is anchoring the D. Kobe and Odom playing the two man game. Kobe hits LO with pass into the post. Notice how Kobe’s man (Ron Artest) never leaves him despite LO taking advantage of Kenny Thomas. Only Brad Miller seems to hedge to stop LO.

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Caption 14: Kobe again attracts two defenders at a minimum on any threatening drive, despite Ron Artest covering him. LO completely wide open. Hits the 3.

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Caption 15: Kobe swarmed in the paint by Artest and Kevin Martin, with Kenny Thomas (I think or Shareef Abdul Rahim) also coming over to add to the pressure. Kobe hits Smush in the corner for a 3. Kwame also wide open.

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Caption 16: Kobe trapped off the dribble. Hits LO who drives for the baseline reverse.

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Caption 17: Typical again. This again folks in the first quarter and Kobe is already receiving some heavy level of defensive attention from a team being anchored by prime Ron Artest. Brian Cook gets open and scores, but note the awful spacing.

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Caption 18: This play really summed it up to me. This is an image that depicts the after effects of Kobe’s ability to pull defenders. Kobe zipped out from the free-throw line towards the 3 point line, and both Artest and Bonzi Wells momentarily and instinctively chased him, giving LO and Luke both slight openings in in the interior.

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Caption 19: Bonzi Wells checking Kobe on the baseline. Brad Miller just standing around to prevent Kobe’s drive, which then opens up Luke, who is wide open, leading to score.

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Caption 20: Kobe being swarmed again by Artest and Brad Miller. You also see Bonzi (white headband on) in the background who is shading off his man at the 3 point line, to trap Kobe if he drives right. Notice again, Rony Turiaf being ignored. In 06, the message was: anyone but Kobe, because the league knew, the Lakers could not win games if the ball wasn’t in Kobe’s hands.

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Caption 21: Lebron casually waiting on Kobe’s drive to help out. Snow also shades off Smush to cut off Kobe going right into the lane. Typical defensive pressure for Kobe. Snow was able to get 2 steals off Kobe because of this defensive set-up.

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Caption 22: First quarter again and Kobe is already recieving crazy attention off the ball. LO open because LBJ’s eyes are on Kobe to prevent the penetration. Make no mistakes, this was all deliberate. Lakers had no real shooters and defenses were more than happy to give Kobe’s teammates open shots if it meant keeping the ball out of Kobe’s hands.

I could honestly post up another dozen or so screencaps from the very few games on Youtube, but I think the point has been made. Peak Kobe attracted a crazy level of defensive attention, and was still able to score at a very high level+ was generally a willing passer+ generated a top 8 offense. And no, Laker fans were not exaggerating when they were telling you about the defensive attention he received that year. And no, that +18.9 on O is not misleading. Kobe was the end all, be all for a team on offense that finished top 8. This was not the case of a player who held the ball in his hands for 20 seconds and then made a play/created assists. He combined on/off the ball play at a very very high level.


And to repeat again, while the intensity of the defenses Kobe faced naturally waned during the Gasol years, it was still very high, which allowed the Lakers offense to run seamlessly.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #9 

Post#16 » by BasketballFan7 » Thu Jul 6, 2017 1:58 am

1. Hakeem Olajuwon (I mistakingly voted for Shaq in the last round, thinking Hakeem had already been selected; fortunately, my vote changing wouldn't have swung the balance)

My system gives Olajuwon the highest career value among the players that haven't been selected. I already preferred him over O'Neal. He provides the obviously unique blend of volume scoring and GOAT-level defense, and during his earlier years he was still a very good offensive player who rebounded the ball at an awfully high level. His peak gets due respect but his longevity doesn't. He wasn't as ideal as far as durability but he still remains, to me, the obvious choice this late in the list.

2. Julius Erving

I explained this a bit more in my #8 post. I have him above Kobe, Magic, and Bird, in that order, as the third greatest perimeter player of all time.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #9 

Post#17 » by colts18 » Thu Jul 6, 2017 2:07 am

rebirthoftheM wrote:.

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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #9 

Post#18 » by rebirthoftheM » Thu Jul 6, 2017 2:09 am

colts18 wrote:
rebirthoftheM wrote:.

RebirthoftheMr Mojo Risin


? Ex user? Not me I can assure you :D
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #9 

Post#19 » by mischievous » Thu Jul 6, 2017 2:27 am

micahclay wrote:Anyone have Dirk over Kobe and Bird? A few things I think could be in his favor:

1. Longevity (over Bird)
2. Gravity (over both, and over everyone in history IMO)
3. Consistently superior offensive impact to Kobe (by RAPM standards)
4. Led a multiplicity of top offenses
5. I'm not convinced that any offensive player has a clear advantage over him
6. He has a more resilient offensive game vs tough defenses/PS defenses than Duncan/KG/Kobe - he's in the Shaq tier of resilience

Those aren't dogmatic statements, so don't take them that way. I'd just like to hear discussion, as he tends to rank out of the top 10 pretty easily, but his peak PS run, prime, etc. all match up with pretty much anyone.

What are your sources for Dirk having superior offensive Rapm to Kobe? I recall it being the opposite.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #9 

Post#20 » by Styrian » Thu Jul 6, 2017 3:03 am

Bird only played 12 seasons, had numerous playoff failures and his overall career value just doesn't come close to a lot of the guys left. I'd rank Garnett, Hakeem, Robinson, Dirk, Kobe and Malone over him.

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