2017 RealGM POY & Awards Voting Thread

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SideshowBob
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Re: 2017 RealGM POY & Awards Voting Thread 

Post#41 » by SideshowBob » Thu Jul 6, 2017 11:27 pm

JLei wrote:Player of the Year
1. Lebron James
2. Stephen Curry
3. Kawhi Leonard
4. Russell Westbrook
5. James Harden

Struggled with Leonard vs. Westbrook. Ultimately went to the better player and I think the cumulative value of his playoff games helped push him over the top. KD and Draymond were in consideration for the 5th spot. Ultimately went with Harden who was awesome. KD without the missed games would make it.

Offensive Player of the Year
1. Stephen Curry
2. Lebron James
3. James Harden

Harden over Westbrook here even though that might not be correct. IT deserves some mention here while also the run away winner of anti-defensive player of the year.


How did you feel about 16 vs. 17 Steph on offense? And where do you think 17 Bron sits on an all time level (offense only)?
But in his home dwelling...the hi-top faded warrior is revered. *Smack!* The sound of his palm blocking the basketball... the sound of thousands rising, roaring... the sound of "get that sugar honey iced tea outta here!"
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Re: 2017 RealGM POY & Awards Voting Thread 

Post#42 » by SideshowBob » Fri Jul 7, 2017 1:35 am

Player of the Year

1. Lebron James
2. Stephen Curry
3. Russell Westbrook
4. Draymond Green
5. Kevin Durant

HM: Harden, Leonard, Paul (great seasons by a whole host of guys after this pack - top 20 was stacked this year)

Think Lebron had one of the best years of his career and I spent most of the year in the Lebron thread arguing that ITO ability this might be his best year period (similar O to 2014 with better defense). Thought his defense was a little better/more consistent than 2016 all regular season as well, but the narrative has gone in the complete opposite direction after the finals (if GS is a GOAT level team, mostly on the back of offense, then what kind of curve do we need to grade their opposition on for their defense? Cleveland managed to hold them to a lower ORTG than Pop/Spurs did though w/o Kawhi).

Curry's offense is crazy, better than everyone under him on both ends. Think he was down a little bit from last year but stayed healthy throughout the playoffs so this year ends up rating a little bit higher (2016 ~.25 title odds, 2017 .~.28).

Durant without the missed time is fighting for a higher spot. I thought him and Draymond were fighting for 2nd best Warrior all season. Draymond's offense is probably a little overrated by anyone putting too much stock in regression data (IMO +1-1.5), but he's the best defensive player in the league and when the 3-7 spots is made up of +5ish players, league-best defense is good enough to earn you a place.

Dunno how much more I can say about Russ. I think his offense was a little bit better than 15 and 16 but the increased load has come at the cost of defensive effort, so the net result is that he's the same level of player. Which is obviously one hell of a player, but I think him, Green, Kev, Harden, Leonard, Paul are all on the same plane, a couple notches down from the top two.

Leonard gets hit due to missed time (both RS and PS). Without the PS missed time he fights Durant for the 5 spot.

Offensive Player of the Year

1. Stephen Curry
2. Lebron James
3. James Harden

Curry regressed a little from last year (partially league adjustment, partially I think he had a slight down year in response to recovering from the 2016 PS injury), while Lebron had probably his best offensive season yet. This and 2014 are up there with any non-Curry player I think - Magic's better in a vacuum but I prefer 2014 Lebron's skillset for fit (more portable). Bird is the opposite - he's far more portable than Lebron but I think Lebron can lift more. Have him and Curry tied this year but went with Curry because I think he's more portable/mesh-able.

I've been fairly negative on Harden all season, but that's been due to the defensive side (I think he's among the worst defensive players ever for someone this good on offense). Have Westbrook and Durant next after him, and I can imagine myself looking back at this in two months time and have the 3 spot completely flipped around.

Defensive Player of the Year

1. Draymond Green
2. Rudy Gobert

Green - even more focused and disruptive this year. Super valuable in the current offensive environment and seems to be picking up defensive IQ by the spades year-on-year. Takes on a massive defensive load/usage with the combination of rim/outside coverage successfully and insane versatility in single coverage. Gobert - impressive talent, best lane/rim protector in the league and has great awareness/instincts for a dude his age. He's going to sit atop this list in the coming years.

3. Dunno about this. Probably Davis


I may or may not provide votes for the other spots tomorrow.
But in his home dwelling...the hi-top faded warrior is revered. *Smack!* The sound of his palm blocking the basketball... the sound of thousands rising, roaring... the sound of "get that sugar honey iced tea outta here!"
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Re: 2017 RealGM POY & Awards Voting Thread 

Post#43 » by HeartBreakKid » Fri Jul 7, 2017 7:43 pm

Disclaimer: For those who want to see my votes and not my explanations/comments, then scroll all the way to the bottom and my ballot is there.

Player of the Year

1) Lebron James - His offense translates the best in the playoffs. His scoring is more consistent and reliable than Curry's, Durant's and Leonards at this point in all their careers, and his playmaking ability blows all theirs out the water. When you take into account that James is also still really good defensively, this is a no brainer.

2) Kawhi Leonard - Leonard had a very solid regular season, and has picked up his playmaking a lot. Leonard really exploded in the playoffs, against Memphis he put up 31 points on 70 TS%. Some people will deflate his accomplishment against Memphis because they didn't have Tony Allen, even if Allen had an all time great series what would that mean - Leonard puts up 30 on 66 TS% instead? Guy was a beast. His last game against GSW at game 1, he put up 18 points in one half while having his team up by about 20 points - the guy still ended with 25 points on 67 TS these playoffs, a big upgrade from his RS performance as well notable playmaking.

The biggest story is Leonard's defense. From what I've seen, Leonard still seems to be the same lock down defender. I don't watch a lot of SAS, but when I do, Leonard is always butchering who ever he is covering. I don't think SAS having a better defense when Leonard is sitting means much, since they are a very good defense either way.

While Leonard did get injured in the playoffs,I'm not sure if it is proper to hold it against him for Zaza essentially injuring him. He's proven more then what Curry and Durant did, he put up numbers that are just as good, despite not having anywhere near the help - so Leonard gets the benefit of the doubt here.

3) Kevin Durant - I've been going back and forth between him and Curry for this spot. I'm almost swayed to pick Curry since most people seem to be, but I will stick with my guns.

Curry is a better offensive player than Durant, I don't have much doubt about that conclusion. Curry's +/- summarize that. However, I do think Durant's notable defensive improvements probably push him over the edge.

Curry and Durant are both panned for playoff inconsistencies (which is funny considering they're still insanely efficient scorers even in series where they perceived to struggle). These playoffs this wasn't a factor, but when you have that many great players playing together, they SHOULD be able to put up great, clean, efficient numbers. In a hypothetical where both guys had their own team again, I think Durant's DEFENSE gives him a consistency advantage which Curry can't match. Durant is an all-defense caliber player now, and that means if Durant's shot isn't falling or if he is ISO balling too much and killing his teams offense, he's still going to impact the game in a big way. Curry affecting the game passively is supposed to be a major selling point, but Durant stretches the floor also - albeit nowhere near as much as Curry. But yeah, like I said, Durant's notable defensive improvements tells my brain that he should be a bit better, even though Curry does have much better impact stats (but again, on a team like GSW where everyone has incredible stats, it's really hard to pick apart who is truly the most impactful or who is just merely benefiting the most from playing with the other studs).

4)Stephen Curry - It feels weird to put him at #4 after how dominant he was last year. I'm one of those people who think that Curry is about as good as he was last year, perhaps not at the first half of the RS, but for the most part he's the same player. Last year I thought Curry had unlimited potential, but this year I am much more critical of how good Curry can be in the playoffs (on paper he should be the best player ever, but just looking at what LBJ does, it seems like there is a small subtleness that Curry doesn't have that seems to make him a step lower than the true goats).

5)Chris Paul - CP3 had a really underrated season. His RS was looked over as it normally is, but more so this year since no one thought the Clippers would do anything due to their injuries and how insanely stacked GSW is. If people do remember the Clippers started off RED HOT, with incredible defense and a great record - and to also remind people the Clippers ended INCREDIBLY STRONG in the RS where CP3 won the player of the month. So CP3 had arguably the best first and last month in the NBA RS.

RS is nice, but it doesn't really matter, but I do think people overlook that CP3 had very dominant streaks so I felt it was worth pointing out.

His PS run was short, but very impressive. 7 game series against a stud defense with a deep roster in Utah. CP3's 2nd best player was DeAndre Jordan, and his 3rd best player was JJ Reddick - who wasn't hitting any shots other than one game. CP3 had a total dud in game 7, but had 6 stellar games prior to that, and a won the last player of the month - so a bad game was bound to happen sooner or later.

CP3's stats against Utah was 25/10/5 on 59 TS% with crazy +/- and only 2.7 turnovers. When CP3 is on the court, I think it is really clear that he is better than Harden and Westbrook. CP3 is held back from getting placed higher on this list because I haven't seen enough of him in the post season to make me confident in saying he can match the Curry's and Durant's of the world.


Offensive Player of the Year


1) Lebron James - I see a lot of people putting Curry here, but I feel like that is bias to the fact that he is a point guard and a shooter on top of that, which naturally leads people to giving him the benefit of the doubt.

I can say without hesitation, that if we're talking strictly offense, there is no one I'd rather have other than LBJ. I almost feel like it would be crazy to take anyone over him. While Curry and Durant are clearly better scorers over the course of an RS, in the post season, there doesn't seem to be a very big gap. I think James offense just translates better, he is better at slashing, better in transition and has one of the most effective post games from the wing position of all time. And we're just talking about SCORING here.

When you take into account playmaking, James is several tiers above Curry, and he really just blows Durant out the water here. This should translate to him being the best offensive player, and considering what he did to GSW and several other teams, I don't have much reason to doubt him - lack of shooting be damned.

2) Stephen Curry - Well, this is rather obvious at this point given what I said in the prior ranking. Curry off a screen is still pretty damn hard to stop, and his spacing is incredible. Put on top he is an underrated finisher, has a mid range game, and is an underrated passer - he is a clear #2.

3) Chris Paul - CP3 has good boxscore stats, not eye popping but clearly very effective - however his impact stats is what makes him so good. He arguably has the best collection of impact stats in the league and he is on top of several offensive advance stats as well. It isn't hard to see why, the way he orchestrates his offense is masterful, he doesn't need to put up anything more than 18/9 to make sure his team has the best offense possible - so doesn't that mean he's a pretty damn great offensive player?


Defensive Player of the Year

1) Rudy Gobert - So this is probably the vote that has the most potential of blowing up back in my face. Gobert is #1 in DRTG, DWS, BLK%, BLKs and up there in DBPM and D+/-. He's also one of the best rebounders in the league, something that people who are Pro Draymond Green (aka the "versatile" argument") tend to look over.

I knew Gobert's claim to getting DPOY in this project went to **** once Stephen Curry made Gobert spin around. If anything, the fact that so many people latch on to such a shallow argument renforces my confidence that Gobert deserves DPOY. The fact that Gobert can't guard the best scoring point guard in the league in man to man, 30 feet away from the rim, when Curry has superstacked teammates means very little in terms of him "not being worthy of DPOY". Believe it or not, Draymond Green does have weaknesses also.

I also think it is absurd to suggest that Green is anywhere near the rim protector that Gobert. I keep seeing that their FG% at the rim is the same, even though Green's is on significantly less volume - the weird thing is people seem to acknowledge that while Green protects on the rim on way less volume, yet seem to think it is a detail that isn't that important? I mean the fact that Gobert does what he does with such a HIGH VOLUME of shots coming his way, pretty much shuts down the argument that Green is as good of a rim protecter - it's as absurd as suggesting Kyle Korver is as good as a scorer as Kawhi Leonard because they both have great TS%. Sure, it's possible that if more shots came Green's way his efficiency would not go down, but we don't have enough evidence to make that conclusion.

Gobert beat Green out on most defensive stats, and looking at their skill sets, being able to switch and guard the perimeter better doesn't instantly mean you're the better defender - there is more to defense then just PNR defense in which case Gobert isn't exactly a bum either. I mean I am starting to wonder, do people think that Green is a better defender than Tim Duncan as well?

2) Draymond Green - This year it is just a two man race between Green and Gobert. With all the bad stuff I said about Green, it is hard to deny that when watching him he is insanely disruptive. He can take over games defensively and blow up sets. His impact stats are insanely high, so much that people think he might even be one of the best players in the league. I have to give Gobert the benefit of the doubt, because I think the reason why people dismiss Gobert's superior stats is very shallow, but Green could end up making me feel stupid later on down the road for sure.

3) Kawhi Leonard - Sure, SAS defense might be better with Leonard on the bench, but doesn't that just say more about the rotation then anything? I don't see anything to suggest Leonard has actually gotten worse defensively. Motor wise he is the same, athletically he is the same, decision making he is the same - what's really changed?

The argument that you can't be a great volume scorer and play high caliber defense is really flawed also. Pretty much every all time great two way player has had offensive regular season's better than Leonard during the same season they had their best defensive season - so I don't buy that for a second. In the playoffs, I thought Leonard's defense was so good that it wiped away a lot of the concern of his lackluster RS stats.

Rookie of the Year

1) Joel Embiid - Yes, he only played a little over 30 games. But I don't give a damn. He had one of the most unique and dominant rookie seasons in some time. Embiid did it all. He could volume scorer, get double digit rebounds, block the rim no problem, shut down the pick and roll, [bhit 3s at 37% rate[/b], pass the ball and attack the rim like an animal. This guy put up CRAZY numbers for a rookie in just 25 minutes of play. His per stats are 29/11/3 3.5 BLK - granted he is insanely turnover prone at this point of his career. He could have been played more, and probably ended the season with 36ish games, which I guess doesn't make a big difference.

So, to me, rookie of the year only has value if it actually points out who the best rookie was.This means that no matter how small the role, or how small the play time - because quite frankly, every rookie has such crazy circumstances. There are many rookies every year who are snubbed because they didn't play enough, while rookies who are stinking up the floor can average over 30 minutes a game if their team is bad enough. So I don't penalize rookies for lack of games or minutes played, thus I will give Embiid my vote of confidence.

2) Malcolm Brogdon - I thought teams should have drafted Malcolm somewhere between 10-13, the fact that he fell to the 2nd round really enforces my opinion that GMs are clueless. GMs have all this access to the best scouts in the world, but quite frankly, they just don't listen to them.

Brogdon is a 5 year college player, who is 24 years old, it isn't surprising that the guy is as good as he is his rookie year. As I said before, ROY should be about who is the best rookie, regardless of age or potential. Brogdon proved to be a great 3 and D guy, and even went above my expectations with his ball handling responsibilities in Milwaukee. A lot of people crap on Brogdon for being the weakest ROY, but that is crazy - he is better than other ROYs like MCW, Wiggins and even guys like Towns and Lillard are not that much better if at all.

3) Dario Saric - Not much competition outside of Brogdon and Embiid. Saric's passing and handling ability go without saying, he's also a smart player off ball who can nail shots far from the rim. Saric played like a good rotation player this season, which is better than what other rookies like Brown did.



Most Improved Player

1)Isaiah Thomas - I thought Isaiah was more of a super 6th man up to this point. Very good 20 PPG scorer, but he took to to another level at the age of 27. He was one of the league leaders in scorers while scoring 62%. Thomas not only has great handles and a diverse on ball play, but he can hit jumpers off of curls and catch and shoots. While Thomas is very good at getting to the rim, his shooting is what leaves me shocked, he can hit shots with a very quick release on a very consistent basis. While Thomas is not a superstar, he does have #1 option caliber scoring, which isn't something that I thought was possible with Thomas.

2) Giannis Antetokounmpo - The first couple of months of the season I was hesitant to give Giannis this award. Not because I wasn't convinced he was a beast, but because I wasn't convinced that he had improved that much. Giannis was really good at the end of the 2016 RS, so I thought it was natural he was doing the things he did at the start of the season.

However, Giannis has convinced me that he is easily a top ten player. His defense has stepped up a notch, and his scoring ability is looking more consistent. He went from a very good player last year to a top ten guy this year. He's not #1 because he was still pretty damn good the year before, given his age it isn't that crazy he made the leap that he did.

3)Nikola Jokic - I'm not sure if Nuric deserves this spot since I had much lower expectations for Nuric coming into this season then Jokic.

Jokic's passing ability goes without saying, but my jaw has dropped when watching Jokic in the paint. His push shot is so incredibly efficient, it really feels like Jokic does not miss. The fact that he can score with such a simple but effective maneuver is truly scary, that shows that his touch is just on another level from everyone else - forget his B-ball IQ, this guy can shoot like crazy.

He put up some incredible stats and was anchoring the best offense int he league, imagine what he could have done if he wasn't held back by Nuric this season?


6th Man of the Year[/b ]


1) [b]Andre Iguodala
- I think Andre has declined a bit even though his TS% has sky rocketed (which I believe is due to Durant's gravity). He is still the best two way player to come off a bench in the league. Good passer with great defense, and can come up big in times when a bucket is needed.

2) James Johnson - Big increase in PPG and APG, and he is a very good defender. James Johnson was one of the key factors to why the Heat were one of the best teams post all-star break. I'd take him over a one way scoring guard.

3) Eric Gordon - He and Lou Williams were the kings of the scoring 6th men. Gordon genuinely had a very good season, but I do feel like he benefited a lot from Harden. Gordon's ability to score with the ball has declined due to his injuries in my opinion, so while he can shoot lights out he has very little utility outside of that, so I have to place superior two way players in Iggy and Johnson above him.


Coach of the Year

1) Brad Stevens - What makes me give him the #1 spot is his daring substitutions in times of pressure. Stevens has never been shy about experimenting with players or using players in unorthodox times to complete unorthodox tasks. The Celtics nabbing the #1 seed is a nice feather in the cap, but Stevens gets the #1 spot for what he did in the playoffs.

He made very timely substitutions with players like Olynyk, Rozier and a rookie Jaylen Brown which payed off. He knew when to ditch Amir Johnson and when to play him. Stevens did something that Popovich struggles with time to time, and that's adapt his roster with in the span of a series - where as Popovich tends to stick with his guns after he's established a winning formula.

2) Greg Popovich - Honestly, I thought the Spurs overachieved. When you get away from Leonard, their roster looks old or filled with youngings. The biggest reason why Popovich loses out here is because I think he just plays Tony Parker too damn much - really, if it wasn't for that I'd probably give him the #1 spot.

3) Mike D'Antoni - The Rockets overachieved past what anyone thought. Many people, including myself didn't even have the Rockets making the playoffs. The Rockets constructed an awesome team with a clear goal in mind, to chuck up 3s. D'Antoni system is great for someone like Harden, and it lead to them winning a lot of RS games. I don't think D'Antoni's style is that great for the playoffs unless it is against GSW since it gives them a punchers chance, which is all anyone has against GSW at this point.

Executive of the Year

Disclaimer: I will list the organizations here, the person who collects the ballot may assign my vote to any executive he feels best represents that organization (so if I give a vote to Golden State Warriors, one can assume I am voting for Bob Meyers if need be).


1) Golden state Warriors - They signed Kevin Durant. (extra credit for getting David West and JaVale McGee)

2) Cleveland Cavilers - They re-signed everyone, which during the summer of 2016 was not a guarantee. I thought over paying to keep their championship level core in tact was incredibly important, now it seems like a waste of money because they can't beat GSW - but can I really hold that against them? Durant going to GSW just raised the bar, the Cavs were even better this year than they were last year.

The Cavs also landed Bogut, who sadly went down almost instantly, but quite suave of them to get a player that good on a team that is already capped to the gils. Then they add Kyle Krover, which is a great bench addition. The Cavs also addressed their lack of back up PG and got Deron Williams who is even better than the Aussie they lost last year.

It feels kinda cheap to give my top 2 votes to franchises already on top, but I do think they legitimately made great changes given their circumstances.

3)Utah Jazz - The Jazz were on the up and come, all they needed was more talent and depth and the Jazz did just that. This was pretty much the best off season that a small market team with limited cap space that the Jazz could have had. They pulled in George Hill who had an incredible season, Joe Johnson who was a great 6th man and helped win them their series against Los Angeles, and Boris Diaw who is the same solid defensive passer that he was in San Antonio.

Now, one might say - why not give the Pelicans a vote? They got Cousins by giving up Buddy Hield and scraps. Well, while Cousins>Joe johnson, Boris Diaw and George Hill - you have to acknowledge that the Pelicans made a lot of NEGATIVE signings to their franchise. Truthfully, a team with Anthony Davis should be a playoff team - we don't even have to acknowledge that they weren't winning a lot even after they acquired Cousins.

The Pelicans made DREADFUL signings - Langston Galloway, Solomon Hill, E'Twan Moore, Lance Stephenson - just total scrubs and some of them are eating up important cap space which will limit the Pelicans future. Even with Cousins on their team, they're not making the playoffs next year, and Cousins will likely leave (and eventually Davis) - so I think that overall, while Hield for Cousins is a fleece on paper, it will make very little difference for the Pelicans immediate future.



Clean version for ballot collector
Spoiler:
Player of the Year

1) Lebron James
2) Kawhi Leonard
3) Kevin Durant
4) Stephen Curry
5) Chris Paul


Offensive Player of the Year

1) Lebron James
2) Stephen Curry
3) Chris Paul

Defensive Player of the Year

1) Rudy Gobert
2) Draymond Green
3) Kawhi Leonard

Rookie of the Year

1) Joel Embiid
2) Malcolm Brogdon
3) Dario Saric

Most Improved Player

1) Isaiah Thomas
2) Giannis Antentekompo
3) Nikola Jokic

6th Man of the Year

1) Andre Iguodala
2) James Johnson
3) Eric Gordon

Coach of the Year

1) Brad Stevens
2) Greg Poppovich
3) Mike D'Antoni

Executive of the Year

1) Golden State Warriors
2) Cleveland Cavilers
3) Utah Jazz
Colbinii
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Re: RE: Re: 2017 RealGM POY & Awards Voting Thread 

Post#44 » by Colbinii » Sat Jul 8, 2017 2:45 am

Doctor MJ wrote:So to clarify:

You need to explain your votes, but you don't need to explain everything. If it seems like you're sincere in your vote and you've clearly made some effort to add to the discussion beyond your vote you're fine as long as I see nothing that contradicts the criteria.

~Doc


I will explain sometime tomorrow. I am busy tonight and tomorrow I am volunteering to clean a local river for most of the morning through mid-day.

When will the voting "end"?

Sent from my SM-G920P using RealGM mobile app
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Re: 2017 RealGM POY & Awards Voting Thread 

Post#45 » by laika » Sat Jul 8, 2017 7:00 am

Player of the Year-
1.Curry
2.Lebron
3.Westbrook
4.Kawhi
5.Harden
This really comes down to Curry vs Lebron.
Curry had one of the best regular seasons in history from an impact perspective, completely dominating Lebron in Oncourt.
Regular season On/Off
Curry---18.5---neg 2.2--20.7
Lebron---8.0---neg 9.3--17.3
Playoffs On/Off
Curry----19.6--neg 3.3--22.9
Lebron---12.6--neg 20.8--33.4

Lebron played extremely well in the playoffs, but Curry also had extremely good numbers, easily beating Lebron in Oncourt again. I think the finals is the only area where Lebron edges out Curry, and that isn't quite enough to make up for the rest of the year.
As for box score numbers- Yes, Lebron gets more rebounds and thus wins in PER. But PGs aren't expected to do that. What Curry did was lead probably the best team in NBA history when he was on the court. And the Warriors collapsed when Curry wasn't in so he should get a huge amount of credit.

The rest- I think Kawhi was more valuable per minute, but Westbrook played a lot more and just edges him out. Harden was great for stretches but his playoff performance was flat out bad by an MVP standard. Durant was great for the last two rounds of the playoffs but had a relatively low impact the rest of the year. I think these form a clear top 6 but I don't have the time to explain why every other player is in the lower tier.

Offensive Player of the Year-
1.Curry
2.Lebron
3.Harden
These are the 3 best offensive teams in the league and all three are extremely important to their teams' offensive success.

Defensive Player of the Year-
1.Gobert
2.Green
3.Millsap
Yes, Green is more versatile than Gobert. But rim protection is extremely important and Gobert was awesome at it. DRPM is a pretty good stat and Gobert beat Green there. This is hard to prove, but I think Green has more defensive talent around him than Gobert. Millsap had a great defensive year and is pretty underrated.

Rookie of the Year-
1.Embiid
2.Brogdon
3.Saric
Yes, Embiid didn't play much. But in the time Embiid did play he was amazing. The box score stats are great, but Embiid was also a great defender. The rest of the rookies were extremely unimpressive. I think even adjusting for playing time Embiid wins.

Most Improved Player-
1.Giannis
2.Gobert
3.Jokic
I haven't reviewed most improved too closely, but these three have all taken a step up to become some of the top players in the league. It's more important to go from good to elite than from bad to decent.

6th Man of the Year-
1.Lou Williams
2.Iguodala
3.Ginobili
Lou Williams might have had the best year of his career. Played great for Lakers and Houston. Iguodala only gets this high because of his finals performance. Didn't do as much the rest of the year. Ginobili is partly a career achievement award but he was still good after all these years.

Coach of the Year-
1.D'Antoni- His team beat expectations by the most. Some Rockets are underrated, but I think D'Antoni deserves credit for building a great offensive system.
2.Snyder- Somewhat overlooked. Won 51 games despite a lot of injuries. Seems to be good at both player development and building a winning system on offense and defense. Will be interesting to see how Jazz do next year after losing 2 of their 3 best players.
3.Popovich- Is he being punished for past success? Are the Spurs talented or does Popovich make them all better? This is pretty hard to answer. I'll put Popovich in third because D'Antoni and Snyder both outperformed expectations by much more.

Executive of the Year-
1.Morey
2.Lacob
3.Hammond
Not sure what the time cutoff for this is. Also, it's nearly impossible to adjust for the difficulty level of the job. Clearly it's a whole lot easier being the GM for the Warriors rather than the Nets.
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Re: RE: Re: 2017 RealGM POY & Awards Voting Thread 

Post#46 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Jul 8, 2017 6:53 pm

Colbinii wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:So to clarify:

You need to explain your votes, but you don't need to explain everything. If it seems like you're sincere in your vote and you've clearly made some effort to add to the discussion beyond your vote you're fine as long as I see nothing that contradicts the criteria.

~Doc


I will explain sometime tomorrow. I am busy tonight and tomorrow I am volunteering to clean a local river for most of the morning through mid-day.

When will the voting "end"?

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Well I said end of day yesterday, but I tell you what. I won't be able to tally up the votes until at least 6 PM Pacific time. Will that be enough time?

I'm not looking to judge you harshly. You can add more later, but I'd like you to add least give some initial thoughts. If you'd like a bit more time this evening, just reply to this and give me a ballpark.
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Re: 2017 RealGM POY & Awards Voting Thread 

Post#47 » by ThaRegul8r » Sat Jul 8, 2017 7:11 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:I mean I am starting to wonder, do people think that Green is a better defender than Tim Duncan as well?


Well, seeing how Green at this point in time has one Defensive Player of the Year award after five years in the league to Duncan's zero in 19 (and the award was available to both when they played, so it isn't one of those situations was there was a lack of opportunity for one player), on the heels of two consecutive runner-up finishes, the people voting for the awards seem to think so at the very least.
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Re: 2017 RealGM POY & Awards Voting Thread 

Post#48 » by dreamshake » Sat Jul 8, 2017 8:49 pm

Player of the Year

LeBron James: Still clearly the best player in the game and this playoff run may well be his offensive peak. His command of the game has never been better. Put up some of his best numbers ever in leading an all-time great postseason offense.

Kawhi Leonard: I feel like he’s being massively underrated here. Carried a relatively mediocre supporting cast to 61 wins, 2 western conference playoff series wins and was clearly ready to put up a heck of a fight against GSW till he went down. His offensive skill set improved so much this year – his playmaking and midrange shooting game are just incredible. The ridiculous playoff run and his sizeable gap on defense (and yes I’m aware of the stats – he’s still a great defender IMO) is what puts him over Curry for me – 31.5 PER, .314 WS/48, .672 TS is just absurd.

Stephen Curry: Still the best player on an all-time great team and finally had the complete playoff run he’s been missing to this point. His perimeter gravity is truly inverted-Shaq level. I know the impact numbers, however box-score derived stats aren’t irrelevant to me and the gap between Curry’s and LeBron/Kawhi’s is pretty large. His regular season was a pretty big drop-off from last year in both volume (not surprising) and efficiency (surprising). This, along with his lesser value on defense is what drops him to 3rd for me.

Russell Westbrook: Don’t feel like I need to say much here. One of the better carry-jobs we’ve ever seen. His relentlessness was pretty impressive – was waiting all season for him to hit a wall and he just kept going. Still, I thought at times he did monopolize the offense in a way that took his teammates out of the game. Will be interesting to see how it goes with PG next season.

Kevin Durant: The missed games in both the RS & playoffs hurt him here. The improved defense was nice to see. Came through in a big way in the Finals.

OPOY
LeBron James
Stephen Curry
Russell Westbrook

DPOY
Draymond Green
Rudy Gobert
Anthony Davis

ROY
Joel Embiid
Malcolm Brogdon
Dario Saric

MIP
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Kawhi Leonard
Nikola Jokic

6MOY
Eric Gordon
Andre Iguodala
Lou Williams

COY
Gregg Popovich
Mike D’Antoni
Erik Spoelstra

EOY
Bob Myers
David Griffin
Daryl Morey
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Re: 2017 RealGM POY & Awards Voting Thread 

Post#49 » by HeartBreakKid » Sat Jul 8, 2017 9:23 pm

ThaRegul8r wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:I mean I am starting to wonder, do people think that Green is a better defender than Tim Duncan as well?


Well, seeing how Green at this point in time has one Defensive Player of the Year award after five years in the league to Duncan's zero in 19 (and the award was available to both when they played, so it isn't one of those situations was there was a lack of opportunity for one player), on the heels of two consecutive runner-up finishes, the people voting for the awards seem to think so at the very least.


Even if DPOY was a good measure, that doesn't infer that at all - it's not like Green won those over prime Tim Duncan.
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Re: 2017 RealGM POY & Awards Voting Thread 

Post#50 » by laika » Sat Jul 8, 2017 11:29 pm

dreamshake wrote:Player of the Year

Stephen Curry: Still the best player on an all-time great team and finally had the complete playoff run he’s been missing to this point. His perimeter gravity is truly inverted-Shaq level. I know the impact numbers, however box-score derived stats aren’t irrelevant to me and the gap between Curry’s and LeBron/Kawhi’s is pretty large. His regular season was a pretty big drop-off from last year in both volume (not surprising) and efficiency (surprising). This, along with his lesser value on defense is what drops him to 3rd for me.



--------------------------Pts---Reb---Ast---TS%
Lebron-----------------25.2--8.2---8.3---.619
Curry-------------------27.3--4.8---7.2---.624

Lebron Playoffs------28.6--7.9---6.8---.649
Curry Playoffs--------28.6--6.3---6.8---.659

The numbers per 36 are extremely similar if you take out rebounds. But what about rebounding and defense? Collecting a box score stat only adds value if someone else on the team can't do it more efficiently. Curry actually got an unusually high amount of rebounds for a PG. Any rebounds less than Lebron certainly didn't seem to hurt the Warriors. Again on defense- The Warriors with Curry on the court were a lot better defensively than the Cavs with Lebron on the court. Curry almost certainly isn't hurting the Warriors on defense. Even if you assert that Lebron is the better defender(not by much according to DRPM), Curry's massive offensive value easily overcomes this gap.

But Lebron played more minutes, adding more value? You could look at this way. But to be fair you would have to look at the impact values. Even with the extra minutes Lebron played, Curry is so far ahead in Oncourt value that he still beats Lebron by a wide margin on this measure. In the regular season there isn't much of a case for Lebron- Curry dominates in Oncourt and On/Off. The only way to give the edge to Lebron is to give extreme weight to the playoff Offcourt value- which would be somewhat ironic because in many past discussions most people tend to want to ignore Offcourt numbers.
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Re: 2017 RealGM POY & Awards Voting Thread 

Post#51 » by PCProductions » Sun Jul 9, 2017 12:55 am

Player of the Year

1. Lebron James As crazy as it sounds, this year is in contention for his best year, and we're talking about Lebron here. I think I might be a little too forgiving of the relatively disappointing regular season, but I'm pretty high on the important of Love missing 22 games and JR Smith being out most of the season as the reason for netting so few wins in a pretty mediocre conference this year. Also, if one subscribes to the notion that Lebron was "saving himself" for the playoffs--which, lets admit, most people care way more about for guys chasing a legacy--then you have to admit that it worked. They effectively gentleman swept the team that stole their one seed and straight up embarrassed them on their home court. Lebron carried the far-and-away best team in the eastern conference in the regular season and completely defined the team (+30 On/Off postseason!) that cruised through the conference and knocked a game off the potential GOAT team. POY level stuff in a pretty strong year for top end talent.

2. Stephen Curry Underrated year for a player who in my mind suddenly became an underrated player. Curry was functionally 90% of the player he was the year before and that was a GOAT level year. He had growing pains with KD and admittedly lost his "edge" that he had in 2016, but he delivered in convincing fashion in the playoffs and was basically a dominant finals short of the POY.

3. Kawhi Leonard Let's not forget that Leonard is now an elite offensive player. That is a scary player when you enable that on a back to back DPOY. Injury was lame as hell and definitely a what if moment for those WCF. Had the best playoffs prior to injury.

4. Draymond Green Homer in me coming through? I don't know, but this is a guy who carried the #1 defense on the potential GOAT team. The Warriors werent a near 12 SRS team/near undefeated in the playoffs on the back of Steph Curry. For the last three years, he is the yin to Steph's yang and I feel like it has to be rewarded. Smartest defensive player I've ever seen.

5. Russell Westbrook It would be foolish to exclude the MVP and player who averaged 30-10-10. I mean we can argue about the meaning of triple doubles all day, but this was an historic season and a truly Jordan like level of "gotta see this guy" when he played. I don't have the data to back this up, but he felt like the most clutch player in the league.

Honorable mentions:
KD--missed time hurts him here and I'm not sure how much impact he added compared to Curry/Draymond. Definitely as good of a player as those two, though.

Harden--Too poor defensively and his supporting cast was pretty great. Terrible ending left a bad taste in my mouth.

CP3--Missed time and really disappointing first round, honestly.

Offensive Player of the Year
1. Stephen Curry I mean it is still night and day offensively with and without Curry on the floor and there are tons of good to elite offensive players on this team. Durant being a noteworthy name here.
2. Lebron James Probably his best offensive year ever. 2014 may be tied with it, though. Finally got his stroke back and achieved floor general level of Chris Paul at this stage of his career.
3. Russell Westbrook Absolutely carried on that end. Like, harder than maybe even Lebron or Curry.

Defensive Player of the Year
1. Draymond Green
2. Rudy Gobert As close a second as you can get. I wouldn't mind anyone who puts him #1. I reward Green continuing it to a dominant championship.
3. Anthony Davis Distant third. But the guy has finally started to mature on that end and he's basically still good for GOAT potential on that end.
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Re: 2017 RealGM POY & Awards Voting Thread 

Post#52 » by JordansBulls » Sun Jul 9, 2017 2:59 am

PCProductions wrote:Player of the Year

1. Lebron James As crazy as it sounds, this year is in contention for his best year, and we're talking about Lebron here. I think I might be a little too forgiving of the relatively disappointing regular season, but I'm pretty high on the important of Love missing 22 games and JR Smith being out most of the season as the reason for netting so few wins in a pretty mediocre conference this year. Also, if one subscribes to the notion that Lebron was "saving himself" for the playoffs--which, lets admit, most people care way more about for guys chasing a legacy--then you have to admit that it worked. They effectively gentleman swept the team that stole their one seed and straight up embarrassed them on their home court. Lebron carried the far-and-away best team in the eastern conference in the regular season and completely defined the team (+30 On/Off postseason!) that cruised through the conference and knocked a game off the potential GOAT team. POY level stuff in a pretty strong year for top end talent.

2. Stephen Curry Underrated year for a player who in my mind suddenly became an underrated player. Curry was functionally 90% of the player he was the year before and that was a GOAT level year. He had growing pains with KD and admittedly lost his "edge" that he had in 2016, but he delivered in convincing fashion in the playoffs and was basically a dominant finals short of the POY.

3. Kawhi Leonard Let's not forget that Leonard is now an elite offensive player. That is a scary player when you enable that on a back to back DPOY. Injury was lame as hell and definitely a what if moment for those WCF. Had the best playoffs prior to injury.

4. Draymond Green Homer in me coming through? I don't know, but this is a guy who carried the #1 defense on the potential GOAT team. The Warriors werent a near 12 SRS team/near undefeated in the playoffs on the back of Steph Curry. For the last three years, he is the yin to Steph's yang and I feel like it has to be rewarded. Smartest defensive player I've ever seen.

5. Russell Westbrook It would be foolish to exclude the MVP and player who averaged 30-10-10. I mean we can argue about the meaning of triple doubles all day, but this was an historic season and a truly Jordan like level of "gotta see this guy" when he played. I don't have the data to back this up, but he felt like the most clutch player in the league.

Honorable mentions:
KD--missed time hurts him here and I'm not sure how much impact he added compared to Curry/Draymond. Definitely as good of a player as those two, though.

Harden--Too poor defensively and his supporting cast was pretty great. Terrible ending left a bad taste in my mouth.

CP3--Missed time and really disappointing first round, honestly.

Offensive Player of the Year
1. Stephen Curry I mean it is still night and day offensively with and without Curry on the floor and there are tons of good to elite offensive players on this team. Durant being a noteworthy name here.
2. Lebron James Probably his best offensive year ever. 2014 may be tied with it, though. Finally got his stroke back and achieved floor general level of Chris Paul at this stage of his career.
3. Russell Westbrook Absolutely carried on that end. Like, harder than maybe even Lebron or Curry.

Defensive Player of the Year
1. Draymond Green
2. Rudy Gobert As close a second as you can get. I wouldn't mind anyone who puts him #1. I reward Green continuing it to a dominant championship.
3. Anthony Davis Distant third. But the guy has finally started to mature on that end and he's basically still good for GOAT potential on that end.


I think it is foolish to put the MVP at 5th on the season when they averaged a triple double in the season and playoffs and had the highest Box Plus/Minus and VORP ever. I can understand maybe 2nd if someone else dominated on the season as much and then a dominate playoffs and finals of historic proportions and won the title.
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Re: 2017 RealGM POY & Awards Voting Thread 

Post#53 » by Dr Positivity » Sun Jul 9, 2017 3:58 am

I didn't even realize this thread was up, my bad. If you'll still accept it

POY

1. Lebron James - While it's unclear if he was the most valuable regular season player, he went off in the playoffs again and showed just how brilliant a player he is. Him and Curry broke away from the pack in RAPM

2. Stephen Curry - I feel Curry's floor warping spacing effect in addition to the stats he's still putting on the board, makes him likely the most valuable offensive player in the history of the game. Superb playoff performance.

3. Russell Westbrook - This guy had a bananas season and while his RAPM is not as strong his team was still way better with him on the court. Having a healthy season is the main reason I put him 3 over Kawhi and Durant though

4. Kevin Durant - Durant missed some games in the regular season and playoffs and didn't seem that important to GSW in the regular season. However his stellar playoffs and Finals makes up for it and while Curry helped take pressure off him in the Finals, there's still value in him dominating and he was a key defensive player

5. Draymond Green - Stellar defense combined with above average offense is a potent combo. Separating him from GSW system is hard but the other candidates here have weaknesses. I come down hard on players who's season ends cause of them missing huge playoff games like Kawhi, and Harden I feel is the new David Robinson where holes in his game show up in the playoffs, plus his RAPM was overall disappointing

Offensive player of the year

1. Stephen Curry - As mentioned offensive GOAT level
2. Lebron James - One of the greats
3. James Harden - Narrowly over Westbrook and injured Durant, still an offensive behemoth

Defensive player of the year
1. Draymond Green
2. Rudy Gobert
3. Robert Covington

No surprises with top 2, I went with the RPM/RAPM supported choice for #3

Rookie of the year
1. Malcolm Brogdon - Word to the NBA for picking him over Saric
2. Joel Embiid - Considering the lack of competition, great in 800 minutes is enough for him
3. Thon Maker - I'm putting him in cause he was one of Bucks most impactful players in their first round series

Most improved player
1. Giannis Antetokounmpo
2. Isaiah Thomas
3. Nikola Jokic

I decided to value star leaps like Isaiah's over say a Myles Turner type of jump. In Jokic I guess I'll vote for players coming off rookie seasons even if it's more enjoyable to reward late bloomers

6th man of the year
1. Andre Iguodala
2. Joe Ingles
3. Manu Ginobili

Iguodala is high impact and stepped up in the Finals. Ingles had a nice shooting year for Utah and I suspect Manu has more impact still than these players like Lou and Gordon

Coach of the year
1. Greg Popovich - I still don't understand how they're 60 W team the last two seasons so I'm going Pop here
2. Mike D'Antoni - His system was a massive part of their season
3. Brad Stevens - Celtics #1 seed and I feel all these years of Stevens juggling similarly capable starters/bench guys without it leading to chemistry disruption is underrated

Executive of the year

1. Joe Lacob - Cause they got Kevin Durant and still managed to sign quality bench depth like West and Zaza
2. Daryl Morey - Remakes team in light of Dwight disaster and has huge success
3. Dennis Lindsey - Utah makes 2nd round with some solid moves like George Hill and Max Joe
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Re: 2017 RealGM POY & Awards Voting Thread 

Post#54 » by PCProductions » Sun Jul 9, 2017 4:20 am

JordansBulls wrote:I think it is foolish to put the MVP at 5th on the season when they averaged a triple double in the season and playoffs and had the highest Box Plus/Minus and VORP ever. I can understand maybe 2nd if someone else dominated on the season as much and then a dominate playoffs and finals of historic proportions and won the title.

He was 9th in RPM and 20th in RAPM. Maybe you don't put as much stock into those metrics as I do, but he isn't exactly top of the class in metrics where the box score isn't the deciding factor on level of play.
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Re: 2017 RealGM POY & Awards Voting Thread 

Post#55 » by JordansBulls » Sun Jul 9, 2017 4:42 am

PCProductions wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:I think it is foolish to put the MVP at 5th on the season when they averaged a triple double in the season and playoffs and had the highest Box Plus/Minus and VORP ever. I can understand maybe 2nd if someone else dominated on the season as much and then a dominate playoffs and finals of historic proportions and won the title.

He was 9th in RPM and 20th in RAPM. Maybe you don't put as much stock into those metrics as I do, but he isn't exactly top of the class in metrics where the box score isn't the deciding factor on level of play.

That's because he isn't on a good team, he basically had to do everything for them.
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Re: 2017 RealGM POY & Awards Voting Thread 

Post#56 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Jul 9, 2017 9:23 am

Already, here are the tallies:

http://tinyurl.com/realgmpc1718

Feel free to double check it, but the tentative winners:

POY: LeBron James, 7th time
OPOY: Steph Curry, 3rd time in the 3 years we've done this
DPOY: Draymond Green, 3rd time in the 3 years we've done this
ROY: Malcolm Brogdan, very close win over Embiid
MIP: Giannis Antokounmpo
6MOY: Eric Gordon, very close win over Iggy
COY: Gregg Popovich
EOY: Bob Myers(slash Lacob/Warriors)
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Re: 2017 RealGM POY & Awards Voting Thread 

Post#57 » by ardee » Sun Jul 9, 2017 10:00 am

Doctor MJ wrote:Already, here are the tallies:

http://tinyurl.com/realgmpc1718

Feel free to double check it, but the tentative winners:

POY: LeBron James, 7th time
OPOY: Steph Curry, 3rd time in the 3 years we've done this
DPOY: Draymond Green, 3rd time in the 3 years we've done this
ROY: Malcolm Brogdan, very close win over Embiid
MIP: Giannis Antokounmpo
6MOY: Eric Gordon, very close win over Iggy
COY: Gregg Popovich
EOY: Bob Myers(slash Lacob/Warriors)


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Re: 2017 RealGM POY & Awards Voting Thread 

Post#58 » by JordansBulls » Sun Jul 9, 2017 4:41 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:Already, here are the tallies:

http://tinyurl.com/realgmpc1718

Feel free to double check it, but the tentative winners:

POY: LeBron James, 7th time
OPOY: Steph Curry, 3rd time in the 3 years we've done this
DPOY: Draymond Green, 3rd time in the 3 years we've done this
ROY: Malcolm Brogdan, very close win over Embiid
MIP: Giannis Antokounmpo
6MOY: Eric Gordon, very close win over Iggy
COY: Gregg Popovich
EOY: Bob Myers(slash Lacob/Warriors)


It says 2017-2018
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Re: 2017 RealGM POY & Awards Voting Thread 

Post#59 » by dreamshake » Sun Jul 9, 2017 5:43 pm

laika wrote:Again on defense- The Warriors with Curry on the court were a lot better defensively than the Cavs with Lebron on the court. Curry almost certainly isn't hurting the Warriors on defense.


I'm not going to respond to all of that (I seem to remember responding to some of this when you were trying to say that Curry had the best season of all time). But this statement is ridiculous. "Not hurting" the defense while guarding the least-threatening opposing player when you're the worst defender on your team (and good luck convincing me he's a better defender than Klay, KD, Iggy or Draymond) is a little different than anchoring the defense, guarding Kevin Durant and being the best defender on your team. Almost everyone that voted has LeBron ahead of Curry so I'm not sure why you're picking me out anyway. I still had him ahead of Westbrook, Durant, etc. so it's not like I'm just trashing the guy.
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Re: 2017 RealGM POY & Awards Voting Thread 

Post#60 » by laika » Sun Jul 9, 2017 6:40 pm

dreamshake wrote:
laika wrote:Again on defense- The Warriors with Curry on the court were a lot better defensively than the Cavs with Lebron on the court. Curry almost certainly isn't hurting the Warriors on defense.


I'm not going to respond to all of that (I seem to remember responding to some of this when you were trying to say that Curry had the best season of all time). But this statement is ridiculous. "Not hurting" the defense while guarding the least-threatening opposing player when you're the worst defender on your team (and good luck convincing me he's a better defender than Klay, KD, Iggy or Draymond) is a little different than anchoring the defense, guarding Kevin Durant and being the best defender on your team. Almost everyone that voted has LeBron ahead of Curry so I'm not sure why you're picking me out anyway. I still had him ahead of Westbrook, Durant, etc. so it's not like I'm just trashing the guy.


Here are the DRPM rankings for the primary Warriors-
2- Green
16- Pachulia
70- Iguodala
80- Durant
202- Curry
205- McGee
240- Livingston
278- Thompson

Every stat that I have ever seen says that Curry is an above average defender. He ranks in the top quarter of PGs defensively. Your theory that the Warriors always hide Curry on defense is extremely unlikely. The reason why is because Livingston and Thompson play together a lot and so do Curry and Livingston. With a large sample to work with it should be relatively easy to figure out who is the best defender of the three. The data shows that Curry is a better defender than Livingston and Thompson. This would not be possible barring a massive miscalculation by those doing RAPM.

Being the best defender on one of the worst defensive teams vs an above average defender one of the top defensive teams isn't exactly a definitive endorsement. But I've already stated that Lebron is a better defender than Curry so let's move on.

I singled you out because you made a statement that was pretty close to objectively wrong- Curry has virtually equal box score numbers per minute with Lebron(and Kawhi) if you exclude rebounds, which is pretty reasonable considering that he's a PG. To say that their box score numbers aren't even close is a massive stretch at best.

Voting Curry 3rd isn't that bad, but 76% of the voters ranked him higher than you did.

As for the "best season of all time" statements, I'll stand by that.
Curry almost definitely had the best Oncourt rating in NBA history- both in the regular season and in the playoffs.
Regarding adjusted, Lebron might have had the best season he's ever had this year but Curry still beat him in RAPM. As for every other player in history, I'll try to look into it further but you're probably going to have to weight Offcourt pretty heavily for anyone to beat Curry. His On/Off was ridiculous and no Warrior came remotely close to his numbers.

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