RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #9

THKNKG · Post #81 » by **THKNKG** » Fri Jul 7, 2017 3:32 am

I'll edit this into an actual post when my internet actually works :/

I made a scouting report (small) on one quarter of basketball for Dirk. Let me know if I'm heading the right direction.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dendBxlkbupjQ4hOGiJF1wsKjJVuoEqlf7ANUw2dkTQ

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

mischievous · Post #82 » by **mischievous** » Fri Jul 7, 2017 4:09 am

Doctor MJ wrote: But y'know, at his peak, Dirk's impact was probably pretty comparable to Bird's

They really aren't though, and I don't know why people say this. He was comparable as a scorer, but Bird had advantages pretty much everywhere else and his passing was just on a different planet.

Tesla · Post #83 » by **Tesla** » Fri Jul 7, 2017 4:28 am

1st Vote: Kobe Bryant
2nd Vote: Larry Bird

Kobe, I simply think up to this point he is the most accomplished both by his stature he occured by his contemporaries and his results (yes I know you can call it winning bias). He has a very consistant and long prime, where he finished top 5 in mvp voting 12 times. It is an arbitrary cut off, but just being relevant to that extent for that many years is damn impressive, only Kareem (and now LBJ) can say the same and that is impressive company. His All NBA 1st team selections are also pretty much second to none. I trust that he will try to get to the stature he got to under any circumstances, yes he was a complainer at times, but it did also put pressure to change his situation. Has he been fortunate with some teams (and coach) yes, but that is also in some degree in hindsight. Success to that degree only seems very likely because it happened, we are quick to say the outcomes were so probable when in fact there have been many more teams on paper that seemed they would succeed more and didnt. None of what Kobe accomplisehd or any other player/or team is a given, I must credit it because it is extremely important reason why the game is played. He is also one of the best showmen to have ever played, we don't have thousands of threads about him for no reason even if there are polar opposite opinions. From 06-10 he really reached a strong pinnacle in the world as the best basketball player (or 2nd perhaps) but that length of time to have that opinion of you so given was only achieved by perhaps a handful of players, right or wrong. Lastly, he did adapt, he did play many roles and was successful in all but his final role as a shell of himself. You don't go from taking 30 shots to 20 shots next year without adapting (as well as olympics, where his Defense was elite). Anyhow, I take him over the remaing because I feel he has an equal or better 3 year run to anyone remaining from 08-10, and what he did the 6 years before then and 3 years after then is also just as impressive.

Larry Bird- I take his 3 year MVP run a smidge over Hakem's run, Hakeem doesnt move the needle for
much in the 80s or late 90s. He is defenitley next in my consideration but I have Bird ahead by a smidge but can be convinced otherwise perhaps (Hakeems main advantage to me is his longevity)

andrewww · Post #84 » by **andrewww** » Fri Jul 7, 2017 4:48 am

Vote: Kobe Bryant
Alternate: Hakeem Olajuwon

Seems Hakeem didnt have as consistent a prime offensively as a couple of the remaining candidates for this spot imo (Kobe/Bird). And I'm generally an advocate that offensive impact typically overtakes defense. Its really close between Kobe/Hakeem/Bird but I have the former two edging out Bird who had the shortest career and was closer to neutral on the defensive end.

Post #85 » by **Doctor MJ** » Fri Jul 7, 2017 5:12 am

mischievous wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote: But y'know, at his peak, Dirk's impact was probably pretty comparable to Bird's

They really aren't though, and I don't know why people say this. He was comparable as a scorer, but Bird had advantages pretty much everywhere else and his passing was just on a different planet.

By 2011 Dirk was basically a puppeteer orchestrating the play on the court. Setting up shop at the elbow allowed him to have a very predictable set of contingencies making it easy for him to pick apart the defense. Meanwhile on the other end he was actually quite effective. I'd give Bird the offensive peak edge...but by that point his defense had really fallen off.

Post #86 » by **trex_8063** » Fri Jul 7, 2017 5:25 am

Limited scouting report (with video supportive materials) for Garnett; sorta rushed tonight, starting with G1 of '04 WCF (against Lakers), and really only got thru the 1st quarter (will try to come back with materials harvested from other games). I watched more of this game, as well as part of '08 game against Cleveland, another game against the Lakers from '03 (somewhat more of the same).
While this report is lolsamplesize (from one quarter of one game), I'd suggest it's perhaps illustrative of how easy it is to find examples of what he does (defensively especially) to help his team......really you just have to click on a game and watch a few minutes to find plenty of examples.

EDIT: Links didn't work the way I wanted, but if you copy/paste the http into new browser window, will bring you to exactly the play I describe.

PnR/PnP Defense
[youtube]https://youtu.be/YdQlQripVFc?t=100[/youtube]
Cassell gets completely trapped behind a Mailman screen, but no penetration or other major defensive breakdown allowed as KG picks him up. Payton passes to Malone for an open 20-footer (which Garnett perhaps could have contested better, though likely was a conscious decision---baiting him to shoot it and/or feeling it's better to allow that shot than bite too hard on a fake: twilight-years Mailman is only hitting that shot---even uncontested---maybe 36-38% of the time).

[youtube]https://youtu.be/YdQlQripVFc?t=160[/youtube]
Another solid screen by Malone, another penetration attempt totally cut off, goading an aging Payton into a [likely] low % baseline pull-up (and Garnett still recovers to defend any potential roll to the rim AND manages to get into position to box-out for the rebound; unfortunately Cassell fouls the shooter).

[youtube]https://youtu.be/YdQlQripVFc?t=1146[/youtube]
Cuts Kobe off from the middle on the high-screen.

Roving Help
[youtube]https://youtu.be/YdQlQripVFc?t=131[/youtube]
Kobe got the half-step on Hassell and drew the foul, but note Garnett shading the play; had a foul not occurred, Kobe likely wouldn't have had much of a play near the rim.

[youtube]https://youtu.be/YdQlQripVFc?t=241[/youtube]
Again Kobe beats Hassell off the dribble, but ultimately gets no immediate play as it's Garnett (coming from way over on the opposite wing, as he knows Johnson cannot leave Shaq) who cuts him off on the baseline; kicks to Malone who kicks to Payton (open look, misses, Shaq gets OREB and put-back, though).

[youtube]https://youtu.be/YdQlQripVFc?t=327[/youtube]
Lot of things he does on this play. First: flashing off-ball help toward Shaq, preventing the entry pass, recovers nicely to Malone near the perimeter. Second: shades Kobe when he catches a pass at the elbow, forces Kobe to dribble out behind to arc to regroup; then dissuades Kobe on the initial penetration look on the Malone screen-attempt. Third: Comes over on the help to give great contest on the tough runner by Kobe (a miss, TWolves rebound).

[youtube]https://youtu.be/YdQlQripVFc?t=523[/youtube]
Outstanding play on the transition defense: despite there being TWO other Timberwolves who are closer to the play at the time of the rebound, it's still Garnett who gets back to make the chase-down block (note he also makes sincere effort to keep the block in play).

[youtube]https://youtu.be/YdQlQripVFc?t=545[/youtube]
This is immediately after the chase-down block. Note him verbally directing traffic on the defense (he does this a lot). Then he's shading Shaq even before the entry pass, cuts off the baseline on the help D, but is still in position to box out Malone on the weakside as the shot goes up. (hustles downcourt to catch the transition pass and kick out for assist on other end, too, fwiw)

[youtube]https://youtu.be/YdQlQripVFc?t=634[/youtube]
Good help D on the major threat (Shaq right under the rim); leaves his man open for an open 14-foot baseline shot (which is made), but obviously between that and Shaq getting the ball under the hoop.....

[youtube]https://youtu.be/YdQlQripVFc?t=726[/youtube]
Dissuades Kobe from driving middle on the high screen, then shades him on his baseline drive, leaving him with no play (ultimate result a turnover when Kobe steps on the baseline).

[youtube]https://youtu.be/YdQlQripVFc?t=923[/youtube]
Garnett comes from the opposite wing to shade or double-team Shaq in the post, cutting off the middle. Result is a travelling violation by Shaq.

Screen Setting
[youtube]https://youtu.be/YdQlQripVFc?t=120[/youtube]
Solid screen yields a reasonably clean look for one of the best mid-range shooters of his generation (good contest by Kobe, fwiw).

[youtube]https://youtu.be/YdQlQripVFc?t=475[/youtube]
Another solid screen; ball-handling picked up well, though.

[youtube]https://youtu.be/YdQlQripVFc?t=610[/youtube]
Solid screen yields a drive to the bucket for Cassell (misses, but due to Shaq coming over on the help, no one is boxing out Olowokandi who cleans it up on the offensive glass).

rebirthoftheM wrote:.

Found your recent post on Kobe's gravity interesting and somewhat illuminating. My one comment would be noting it's all from '06: trash offensive cast....so of course Kobe has a ton of gravity. With a weak offensive supporting cast, even a player like Garnett (whom I think we'd all agree is a lesser offensive player) can have significant gravity (and note '04 isn't all that bad an offensive cast, too, but below are some examples I found just in a single quarter of play)....

Gravity on Offense (like those presented by rebirthoftheM about Kobe, these are almost meant to be viewed as still-frames)
[youtube]https://youtu.be/YdQlQripVFc?t=316[/youtube]
Triple-teamed on the elbow (result was turnover, though).

[youtube]https://youtu.be/YdQlQripVFc?t=366[/youtube]
Double-teamed in post, they both chase him out behind arc. The weakest option (Johnson on the baseline) ends up being left open (misses shot).

[youtube]https://youtu.be/YdQlQripVFc?t=455[/youtube]
Again sort of swarmed on the elbow, ends up drawing a foul.

I've got no more time tonight for this, unfortunately....

Post #87 » by **trex_8063** » Fri Jul 7, 2017 5:36 am

I'm sorry, but I'll have to keep this short.....

1st vote: Hakeem Olajuwon (brief reasoning below)
2nd vote: undecided though I don't think it will matter, as Dream likely to be one of the top 2 vote recipients. Historically, I'd go with Larry Bird here, but I must admit the arguments for Garnett have been whittling away at me over the years. I'm largely deciding between those two (with Kobe in the periphery as well). Can't make up my mind tonight, and I'm not going to flip a coin. Statistical comparison is very close, Garnett's got the longevity edge as well as potential impact arguments (though Bird's impact appears huge too); Bird has the greater "career accomplishments", and had a greater influence on the course of the game (as far as global popularity, etc).

Hakeem is arguably the best offensive center left on the table, while simultaneously being probably the 2nd or 3rd best (I know some would argue the best) defensive center left. imo, he's the best player (as far as peak) still on the table. He also has a very resilient style of play that comes with an awesome playoff resume and a few remarkable accomplishments. In a nut-shell, that's why I'm going with him.

drza · Post #88 » by **drza** » Fri Jul 7, 2017 6:44 am

Olajuwon, Garnett and Bird: continuum

My three top candidates for this spot are Hakeem Olajuwon, Kevin Garnett and Larry Bird. They make an interesting compare/contrast group, because in many was they form a bit of a skillset and production continuum.

The style makes the fight

I've written about each of these guys before, and I'll draw a bit from that in this section.

Bird: http://hoopslab.rotowire.com/post/146962984416/greatest-players-in-nba-history-larry-bird

Spoiler:

Olajuwon: http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=57114830#p57114830

Spoiler:

Hakeem always struck me as athletic, but not in the same way that Robinson was. Robinson was longer, seemed faster, and seemed to jump higher. Olajuwon always seemed to be built like a tall short guy (if that makes sense. In other words, he was so proportioned that he didn't give the overwhelming impression of height that Robinson, Kareem or Sampson gave). I also don't have memories of overwhelming speed from Olajuwon, though he seemed quick enough to get his hand on everything in the paint (be it a block or a steal) so that impression isn't exactly air-tight. His agility and maneuverability were amazing, though, and I remember how whenever this would be noted the announcers would always point out his background as a soccer player.

Defensively, I remember Hakeem coming out on guards if necessary (most famous example being his block against the Knicks) but the vast majority of my impressions of him are at/near the rim. From that, even though he had the ability to go horizontal, I would say I'd expect his "horizontal defense" to be more similar to young Duncan's or Robinson's (and perhaps Russell's) than Garnett's. It was pretty ironic that the lasting images (for me anyway) of that 1995 match-up were Robinson being so badly fooled by Olajwon's feints and head-fakes, because I kind of feel like Olajuwon would have also fallen for those fakes. Both Olajuwon and Robinson tended to look for the block a lot, which sometimes caused them to over-commit. I feel like this is a weakness for both when compared to Tim Duncan, who almost always seemed to play steady post defense without going for the fakes. I think that Garnett also tended to be better at this area, as he relied on being so darned long that I don't remember him often joining the para-troopers club when defending on-ball.

Olajuwon incredibly artistic post moves, and he used them to maximal effect with a volume-scoring mentality. Olajuwon was both naturally agile and fluid of the group, and that played out with his post moves. Olajuwon also had an excellent handle for a center, and could attack off the face-up. Olajuwon was never really as efficient a scorer as Robinson in the regular season, and I think in large part that's because he didn't share Robinson's proclivity for getting the "easy" shots (fast breaks, alley-oops) nor did he attack and draw fouls like the Admiral. However, his post moves were the exact opposite on the skill/strength continuum. Olajuwon began his career primarily as a finisher, but he did develop into a solid passer that helped him become an outstanding offensive hub at his absolute peak. His scoring threat drew the defense to him, and his passing set his team up with easy shots.
His volume/efficiency could potentially hinder his portability with respect to his peers, as we don't have a positive example of him scaling down his volume for the sake of team success if circumstances dictated the way that we do for the others in the group. But on the other hand, Olajuwon could ramp up his volume scoring to absolutely elite in the playoffs in a way that few could replicate.

Garnett: http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=44647718#p44647718

Spoiler:

In 2003, while watching a game in the first round of the playoffs, it just hit me that I was watching the best player in the world. I had been a Garnett fan for a few years at that point, had been in a BUNCH of KG vs Duncan debates...Shaq was still the baddest man in the NBA, and Kobe was in his Fro-be stage and wearing the number 8. Garnett was playing in a game against both Shaq and Kobe, who were at the time leading the three-time defending champion Lakers. He hit some ridiculous turnaround, fadeaway baseline jumper when falling out of bounds, and I just realized that I was watching a game featuring both Shaq and Kobe...but that Garnett was the best player on the court.

But why was he the best? Conventional wisdom said that he was playing the game all wrong...he was a 7-footer, but he wasn't parked in the paint. He was an excellent post player, but instead of using that post-game all the time he would spend more time posting on the elbows...shooting baseline fadeway jumpers...running the pick-and-pop and shooting 18 foot jumpers. It was enough to drive basketball purists, including many former NBA players turned analysts, crazy. If he was in the post more, he could suck the defense in. He'd be able to draw more fouls. He'd be able to score at a higher volume...or at a higher efficiency...especially in the playoffs, where everyone knew that the key to winning was scoring in the paint. The thing is...conventional thinking wasn't correct. Garnett's unusual style of play, as comfortable on the outside as on the inside, was actually making life WAY easier for his team. Once the analytics movement kicked in, we were able to see that by posting up outside of the paint, Garnett was warping the defense away from the rim and out towards him. Because he was able to hit jumpers at such a strong clip, he was spacing the defense even further. And because he was arguably the best passing big man ever, and he was able to act as the initiator of the offense like a floor general, Garnett was able to actually directly create offense for teammates in ways that very few non-point guards ever had.

Defensively, Garnett's approach and skills changed at different phases. In his younger years, he was playing combo forward, and thus found himself regularly defending both perimeter players and big men. As he got older, Garnett played pure power forward for a good chunk of time, and matched up primarily with opposing power forwards. Then, as his career wound down, he shifted a bit more to forward/center. As such, Garnett is one of the few players that can claim to have guarded Michael Jordan, Tracy McGrady, Tim Duncan, Dirk Nowtizki, Shaquille O'Neal, Dwight Howard and even Yao Ming as the primary defender. His versatility, on that front, is pretty unique. As far as team defense, he is likely the best pick-and-roll defender of all-time, one of the most horizontal big man defenders which meant that his area of influence was more inside the arc as opposed to at the rim. And of course, he was both an excellent defensive mind and a very effective communicator, which helped him to earn his rep as a middle linebacker on the court.

Cliff note stylistic summary: Bird was an offensive genius, an off-ball threat that was an elite scoring forward from the perimeter-in, that was also one of the greatest forward passers and offense initiators of all time. He was an average-to-solid defender, on the whole, with a penchant for getting steals and playing angles that helped make up for his relative lack of athleticism. He had a reputation for shining in big moments.

Olajuwon is one of the best defensive players and scorers of all-time, combining unique athleticism and timing to amass blocks and steals at a rate rarely achieved in the modern era (only David Robinson's really a peer). Olajuwon's scoring ramped up extremely well in the postseason, a fact that was true throughout his career. At his peak, his scoring spiked and his passing and offensive understanding had improved to the point that he could peak as one of the best offensive centers of all time.

Garnett had great post moves, though not as good as Hakeem. He was an excellent offense-initiating forward, but not to the level of Bird. He was a great scorer, but didn't do so at the volume of either Bird or Hakeem. On defense, Garnett was a great rim protector but not to Hakeem's level. However, he had more defensive coverage area and was a better perimeter defender than either Olajuwon or Bird, which gave him levels of defensive versatility that were unique. But on the whole, on both offense and defense, there is a reasonable continuum between these three players.

(ETA: this was to be a longer post. I wanted to do some work on the numbers, as well. But this has been a day, the thread ends tomorrow, and I'm not sure I'll have time to finish. So, I'm posting this now with just the qualitative portion, and I'll get my vote in. If I get the time, I'll finish up with a numbers comp as well).

Vote: Kevin Garnett
2nd: very unsure. Will go Hakeem Olajuwon for now, but I didn't get to finish the analysis. Could easily change to Bird, if I get the time and find something as I work through this to change my mind.

oldschooled · Post #89 » by **oldschooled** » Fri Jul 7, 2017 8:44 am

Freaking hard. Career value wise Larry and Kobe are almost same. I don't want to punish Larry w/ his longevity because he squeezed everything he had in that short span of his career. Top 5 MVP win shares since he started his prime (and he started his prime right off the bat - maybe his 2nd year). 2 consecutive MVPs, 2 rings and 2 Finals MVPs in a span of 3 years. But Kobe also has a comparable career with longevity to boot in. In the end, I just think Kobe had better career value than Larry.

Vote #1: Kobe Bryant
Vote #2: Larry Bird

ardee · Post #90 » by **ardee** » Fri Jul 7, 2017 9:13 am

dontcalltimeout wrote:I'm not a voter but i had a thought. What's the case for Kobe over Dirk?

On leading offenses, Dirk has led ATG ones and maintained a high level offense as the supporting cast shifted like musical chairs. He has all-time level gravity, and is not giving up anything to Kobe in terms of "go get me a bucket." He also has more spacing benefit due to his position. He was no world beater on defense, but was a consistent, fundamentally sound defender for way longer than Kobe. He has plenty longevity too.

Not gonna make a huge post because Dirk doesn't seem to have gotten traction, but:

1. Dirk had very real weaknesses in his game that could be taken advantage of. His tendency to get shut down by smaller defenders cost the Mavs from '05-'07.

2. Dirk has 3 top 5 MVP finishes. Kobe has 11. Now, accolades aren't everything, but when the difference is that big, it means something.

Gibson22 · Post #91 » by **Gibson22** » Fri Jul 7, 2017 12:05 pm

Votes count?

andrewww · Post #92 » by **andrewww** » Fri Jul 7, 2017 1:04 pm

ardee wrote:
dontcalltimeout wrote:I'm not a voter but i had a thought. What's the case for Kobe over Dirk?

On leading offenses, Dirk has led ATG ones and maintained a high level offense as the supporting cast shifted like musical chairs. He has all-time level gravity, and is not giving up anything to Kobe in terms of "go get me a bucket." He also has more spacing benefit due to his position. He was no world beater on defense, but was a consistent, fundamentally sound defender for way longer than Kobe. He has plenty longevity too.

Not gonna make a huge post because Dirk doesn't seem to have gotten traction, but:

1. Dirk had very real weaknesses in his game that could be taken advantage of. His tendency to get shut down by smaller defenders cost the Mavs from '05-'07.

2. Dirk has 3 top 5 MVP finishes. Kobe has 11. Now, accolades aren't everything, but when the difference is that big, it means something.

Agreed, 2011 Dirk had eliminated that part of his game in terms of not being able to take advantage of shorter players in the post, something Lebron did much better after 2011 as well. But the main reason the 07 Warriors upset the Mavs was because Dirk couldnt exploit Captain Jack.

scrabbarista · Post #93 » by **scrabbarista** » Fri Jul 7, 2017 2:43 pm

To trex: I'd like to request that the 2014 rankings be put next to the 2017 rankings in the OP, like maybe in parentheses after the player's name. I'm very interested to see how things have changed.

(Am I seeing it correctly that the real winner so far has been Magic Johnson? Did he move up a spot in spite of the presence of Duncan and Lebron in the same range? I'd just love to have this info be easily viewable.)

rebirthoftheM · Post #94 » by **rebirthoftheM** » Fri Jul 7, 2017 4:18 pm

dontcalltimeout wrote:
That's a fair response. I would say that, re: gravity, Dirk has more gravity when he doesn't have the ball, than Kobe does. And at Kobe's peak he probably had as much gravity on-ball, but I think the Dirk-effect was more imprinted on the game even when he didn't touch the ball as much. I'm also slightly lower on Kobe's defense than you are. I think he was mostly a negative when he was peaking offensively, so I think Dirk can gain ground there.

I'm not as low on Dirk's 2 or 3 playoff failures ( in 15 years of playoffs) as most, I guess. I don't see 06 as a particularly bad loss, though he had some awful shooting games (so did Kobe btw). And the 07 upset was bad, terrible matchup for them.

I think it's reasonably close for them, and I see a good case for Dirk.

I do agree with your point re Dirk's off ball gravity, and to be honest, though I'd disagree with it, I wouldn't be alarmed by an argument that suggests that Dirk>Kobe on offense. It is evident that in their primes, they were very very close.

And it wasn't just his shooting. I have to admit I am big on narrative things. The way the Mavs lost in 06 v an inferior Heat team, and then a follow up loss against the 8th seed Warriors (and I do know they swept Dallas in the RS) was pretty damning. Two monumental collapses against inferior teams in the midst of Dirk's Prime. In the greater scheme of things, it's not a big deal, but at this stage you need to get nit picky.

As for the defense part.. to make such a claim that Kobe was a "negative", what you would need to show is:

a: He was directly/indirectly responsible for more than 20% of the points scored on the court while he was on
b: that he wasn't making up for it with positive defensive play.

Visually 'bad defensive' plays do not mean one is a negative defender. IMO Kobe, at least in 06 suffered from this phenomena as he tended to have plays where his effort was awful. On the flip side, after taking some notes of the albeit limited footage (about 1/8th of the games are on youtube) and then considering some of the game ratings/recaps made a certain moderator on a popular lakers forum, I find it hard to believe that Kobe satisfies criteria a and b. On the whole, he was a 'low impact' defender. For example, in the Lakers v Mavs in Dec 05, the Mavs blitzed the Lakers on D in the 3rd quarter, yet Kobe essentially had no involvement in the breakdowns (I think I wrote down he was responsible for 2 points directly and indirectly). So with low impact wing/perimter defenders like Kobe, who tended to guard so-so offensive plays on a nightly basis, I don't find DRAPM, on/off etc to be instructive at all. Hell, I find these indicators to be suspect even with bigs. Defense is heavily team oriented. There is no defensive 'super sayin' mode equivalent of Kobe or Dirk going vortex on offense.

I will concede though, that Kobe was a below average defender in both 05 and 07, the latter of which is well known. He was publicly critiqued on this by one of his coaches, who said that he wasn't playing fundamentally sound defense and that he was physically compromised (and Kobe was- his lateral quickness had fallen off the cliff post knee surgery, and he lacked the stamina he did in the previous years). But we need to be cautious in lumping every year together into one.. 05, 06 and 07 were all different seasons. and I doubt the bulk of us watched many of Kobe's games during that period.

I also think we should, in discussing defense, not to disconnect it from offense. Phil Jackson ran with the MO that great half court execution set a very healthy base for defense, and I think his belief had strong merit. One thing I noticed with the Lakers in 06, is that they pretty average/below average in transition defense (and Kobe was no saint here, though again IMO far from the biggest culprit), and that Kobe's long missed jumpers tended to spur this on. We don't traditionally see offense being connected to defense, but I suspect some of the defensive issues we see with Kobe's indicators come not from his actual defense, but from his offensive execution. If i had the time and stamina, I would explore this. One Laker fan back in 06 tracked this for a short period of time, and he concluded that there was defs a positive link between Kobe's misses and scores/FTA's on the other end.

trex_8063 wrote: Found your recent post on Kobe's gravity interesting and somewhat illuminating. My one comment would be noting it's all from '06: trash offensive cast....so of course Kobe has a ton of gravity. With a weak offensive supporting cast, even a player like Garnett (whom I think we'd all agree is a lesser offensive player) can have significant gravity (and note '04 isn't all that bad an offensive cast, too, but below are some examples I found just in a single quarter of play)....

Yep that is defs true, something which I did mention in the OP. No doubt the pressure was lifted post Gasol. But the Lakers offense still relied heavy on Kobe attracting traps of the P & R, in the post and on the wing. I wasn't trying to suggest that Kobe in 06 was experiencing a unique situation that nobody else experienced (though from what I've seen, the consistency of attraction he recieved in the RS was incredible), and so I am not surprised KG was being swarmed also.

But something Kobe did at an elite level, is that he had much success attacking these intense defenses. This was very important to his offensive operation, because if Kobe did not have the skill-set and mindset to attack these defenses, the entire Lakers offense would have splattered. Opposing teams wanted Kobe to pass the ball.

THKNKG · Post #95 » by **THKNKG** » Fri Jul 7, 2017 4:53 pm

rebirthofthem wrote:.

I touched on this w/ Dirk some in my post, but I will do more on it later. A question - how much of the gravity we see with Kobe was "effective?" I wrote about volume vs. efficacy in thread 1. Meaning, even if Dirk and Kobe had equal amounts of gravity, I would say Dirk's is more effective for his teammates, and thus he's a more effective offensive player. I'd be interested in your specific analysis of how effective Kobe's impact was vs. Dirk's.

Some of the reasons I have Dirk to than Kobe:

1. Dirk's offense reached higher highs.
2. Dirk's gravity was more effective.
3. Dirk's game is more portable, as teammate ability didn't really affect his ability to produce top offenses all that much.

Im Your Father · Post #96 » by **Im Your Father** » Fri Jul 7, 2017 5:20 pm

micahclay wrote:
rebirthofthem wrote:.

I touched on this w/ Dirk some in my post, but I will do more on it later. A question - how much of the gravity we see with Kobe was "effective?" I wrote about volume vs. efficacy in thread 1. Meaning, even if Dirk and Kobe had equal amounts of gravity, I would say Dirk's is more effective for his teammates, and thus he's a more effective offensive player. I'd be interested in your specific analysis of how effective Kobe's impact was vs. Dirk's.

Some of the reasons I have Dirk to than Kobe:

1. Dirk's offense reached higher highs.
2. Dirk's gravity was more effective.
3. Dirk's game is more portable, as teammate ability didn't really affect his ability to produce top offenses all that much.

Did it really affect Kobe's? The 06 and 07 lakers were 7th and 8th in ORTG I believe.

Re: "Effectiveness" how do we measure that other than the level of team offense it generates when the player is on the court?

ardee · Post #97 » by **ardee** » Fri Jul 7, 2017 5:39 pm

micahclay wrote:
rebirthofthem wrote:.

I touched on this w/ Dirk some in my post, but I will do more on it later. A question - how much of the gravity we see with Kobe was "effective?" I wrote about volume vs. efficacy in thread 1. Meaning, even if Dirk and Kobe had equal amounts of gravity, I would say Dirk's is more effective for his teammates, and thus he's a more effective offensive player. I'd be interested in your specific analysis of how effective Kobe's impact was vs. Dirk's.

Some of the reasons I have Dirk to than Kobe:

1. Dirk's offense reached higher highs.
2. Dirk's gravity was more effective.
3. Dirk's game is more portable, as teammate ability didn't really affect his ability to produce top offenses all that much.

1. How so? In terms of top end offense, no one in history beats out Kobe other than Jordan, and that's in debate. He's averaged 40 ppg for entire months, scored 81 in a game, 62 in 3 quarters, had multiple 35 ppg Playoff series', how much better can you do? Dirk may be a bit more efficient but the volume gap is too much, and Kobe's playmaking advantage is there too.

2. This is subjective. When you talk about gravity being effective, is that making things easier for teammates and creating easy opportunities? Because very few did that better than Kobe. Check out this screengrab from D Nice's spreadsheet that examines the difference between productivity and efficiency of Kobe and Dirk's teammates with and without them.

Fair to say there's no real difference, if anything slight edge to Kobe because his teammates maintained volume better.

3. 2009 Lakers: 112.8 ORtg, 3rd in league. Supporting cast of peak Pau, Odom, Ariza and Fisher.

2006 Lakers: 108.6 ORtg, 8th best. Supporting cast of Odom, Brown, Walton and Parker. Every player besides Odom was a good amiunt worse than their 2009 counterpart. Yet the offense was still pretty good.

Kobe's ability to lead great offenses was not at all compromised by teammate ability.

Post #98 » by **penbeast0** » Fri Jul 7, 2017 5:54 pm

I will make the final sometimes after Noon, PST (About an hour)

eminence · Post #99 » by **eminence** » Fri Jul 7, 2017 6:21 pm

Didn't have much time to chat in this one, but same ballot once again. (repeat from last thread due to being low on time)

Vote: Kevin Garnett
Same ol' same ol'. The big of the future, arrived yesterday. Elite in plenty of areas and very good to great in them all. Carried a cruddy T-wolves franchise for a decade as well as any player could. Still thankful he got a chance to spend his last relevant days in a better team situation and established one of the elite defenses of the modern era.

Alternate: Hakeem Olajuwon
Convinced enough by some of the posts in the last couple of threads to move him up over Shaq. Now have more faith in his early seasons and also feel better about his off court issues in comparison to Shaq. On court was obviously an excellent excellent two way player, one of the very few big men who could take over a game with his scoring. Doesn't quite have the longevity (total minutes played isn't what I'm looking at - simply # of seasons where a player could be a key contributor or better) for me to put him up with Duncan/KG/KAJ (who I feel are similar enough in primes to give that longevity an edge).

Jaivl · Post #100 » by **Jaivl** » Fri Jul 7, 2017 6:32 pm

So Hakeem is in I'd guess? And it's probably going to be a 3-way race between Kobe, Bird and Garnett for the #10 spot. This one is easy for me, I think Garnett is a better player than Kobe and much more longeve than Bird; the tough part is going to be the alternate vote (considering Dirk, Kobe, Bird, Robinson, Oscar...).