New York Knicks Summer League Notes

[thebuzzardman]

I wasn't recording the conversation, so I am paraphrasing here but what was said was "We like the kid. He'll be good. But he might be more of a fit for what Phil wanted to run vs what we are going to run. So, it might take longer than we all want and other guys might have fit a little better."

And some version of that was said by a few folks.

I only talked to him briefly. The entire staff is operating as if they are there to stay, but you can sense they all have no real idea what is going on.

On Hardaway, lots of people do like him in the organization.

This clarifies it (on Frank N) and also shows how as posters we can be quick to seize on a phrase that is actually part of a paragraph of thought.

I was going to post on it until I read this. My read on that statement on Frank N (the first one) was that there isn't always 100% consensus, not on if a player is good/sucks, but that a few guys might lean towards liking another player more, but think both are good, or that one is a better fit for one style of offense/defense, but both are still good. Or in this case, what I liked to hear is that they liked him, might take a little longer to contribute. Probably Phil contingent saw Frank as needing development time but with team oriented approach could crack minutes/rotation sooner, while perhaps the other contingent sees Frank as needing more time in general - or more time in a more pure P&R offense than say, Smith needed - to contribute more right away.

I think it's important to note that there is probably never 100% consensus on players except in the obvious cases.

Then again, it's the Knicks, so it's also entirely possible the entire time there was some sort of Mills/Harkenstein cabal that Phil/Gaines had to fight with all the time, because, MSG/Dolan.

Frank seems to be able to run, and he was a big factor in his team going as far as it did in the French playoffs. If he was smart enough to understand the triangle, he is young enough to apply that intelligence towards Horny's system, as well. So I see him being a good point guard who can set up others and play D on the perimeter in a way we haven't seen since the greats of long ago (Jose Failderon?).

I bet Mills and co wanted DSmithJr for "scoring" and after that didn't happen and Phil got ousted, they quick ran to replace that scoring with THJr.

Knicks kind of stupidity is hard to put on one guy (Phil or Mills etc). To achieve this level of dumb usually takes a team effort.

[BKlutch]

I wasn't recording the conversation, so I am paraphrasing here but what was said was "We like the kid. He'll be good. But he might be more of a fit for what Phil wanted to run vs what we are going to run. So, it might take longer than we all want and other guys might have fit a little better."

And some version of that was said by a few folks.

I only talked to him briefly. The entire staff is operating as if they are there to stay, but you can sense they all have no real idea what is going on.

On Hardaway, lots of people do like him in the organization.

Those guys are untouchable in a way. Tough luck for Phil, but he chose this job without envioning the strife that would emanate from clashing with the Dolan faithfuls.

This is the SINGLE BIGGEST problem with the Knicks. Dolan is the controlling influence, and he doesn't know squat about basketball. A committee of some of our elders on this board (ok, luminaries, not elders LOL) could easily have made us competitive years ago. But bring in any new guy, not just a weirdo like Phil, and he's never really going to be able to do what is right because of Dolan. As long as Dolan is the owner, the the most likely way for us to become great is through luck. And that's not all that likely.

[BKlutch]

This clarifies it (on Frank N) and also shows how as posters we can be quick to seize on a phrase that is actually part of a paragraph of thought.

I was going to post on it until I read this. My read on that statement on Frank N (the first one) was that there isn't always 100% consensus, not on if a player is good/sucks, but that a few guys might lean towards liking another player more, but think both are good, or that one is a better fit for one style of offense/defense, but both are still good. Or in this case, what I liked to hear is that they liked him, might take a little longer to contribute. Probably Phil contingent saw Frank as needing development time but with team oriented approach could crack minutes/rotation sooner, while perhaps the other contingent sees Frank as needing more time in general - or more time in a more pure P&R offense than say, Smith needed - to contribute more right away.

I think it's important to note that there is probably never 100% consensus on players except in the obvious cases.

Then again, it's the Knicks, so it's also entirely possible the entire time there was some sort of Mills/Harkenstein cabal that Phil/Gaines had to fight with all the time, because, MSG/Dolan.

Frank seems to be able to run, and he was a big factor in his team going as far as it did in the French playoffs. If he was smart enough to understand the triangle, he is young enough to apply that intelligence towards Horny's system, as well. So I see him being a good point guard who can set up others and play D on the perimeter in a way we haven't seen since the greats of long ago (Jose Failderon?).

I bet Mills and co wanted DSmithJr for "scoring" and after that didn't happen and Phil got ousted, they quick ran to replace that scoring with THJr.

Knicks kind of stupidity is hard to put on one guy (Phil or Mills etc). To achieve this level of dumb usually takes a team effort.

I don't know if DS Jr is going to be better than Frank, but I see that he's the kind of guy a "win now" mentality would go for - especially if, after all this time, they haven't learned to look at the long run. I wish people like this would stay the hell away from our team on spend their time on BAT, where they can have their instant gratification without messing with the future.

[thebuzzardman]

Those guys are untouchable in a way. Tough luck for Phil, but he chose this job without envioning the strife that would emanate from clashing with the Dolan faithfuls.

This is the SINGLE BIGGEST problem with the Knicks. Dolan is the controlling influence, and he doesn't know squat about basketball. A committee of some of our elders on this board (ok, luminaries, not elders LOL) could easily have made us competitive years ago. But bring in any new guy, not just a weirdo like Phil, and he's never really going to be able to do what is right because of Dolan. As long as Dolan is the owner, the the most likely way for us to become great is through luck. And that's not all that likely.

This. The Knicks have a corporate structure. There are all sorts of mediocre kiss asses running around the place that have been in with Dolan for years. It doesn't matter who you hire, because they don't get to truly clean house.

Maybe those Spurs tree guys are smart enough to demand full power to do whatever, completely clean house, and they are never allowed to because Dolan/entrenched issues, and therefore never take the job and Knicks continue to suck. I thought Phil would have enough mojo to get that autonomy, but either he didn't (maybe partially true) and of course he lacked FO experience, so didn't have a team to replace the Mills\Houston\Harkenstein\anonymous dbags we don't know of\etc because he doesn't have those sorts of contacts, since he was a coach.

Wake me up when the Knicks hire one of those OKC\Spurs types and lots of dudes in suits are sent packing from MSG. Otherwise, it'll be hundreds of guys on here typing the same sets of complaints/false hopes they have been on internet message boards for going on almost 20 years. Which I sort of like, but I like to take a mallet to my nuts twice a day.

[BKlutch]

Those guys are untouchable in a way. Tough luck for Phil, but he chose this job without envioning the strife that would emanate from clashing with the Dolan faithfuls.

This is the SINGLE BIGGEST problem with the Knicks. Dolan is the controlling influence, and he doesn't know squat about basketball. A committee of some of our elders on this board (ok, luminaries, not elders LOL) could easily have made us competitive years ago. But bring in any new guy, not just a weirdo like Phil, and he's never really going to be able to do what is right because of Dolan. As long as Dolan is the owner, the the most likely way for us to become great is through luck. And that's not all that likely.

This. The Knicks have a corporate structure. There are all sorts of mediocre kiss asses running around the place that have been in with Dolan for years. It doesn't matter who you hire, because they don't get to truly clean house.

Maybe those Spurs tree guys are smart enough to demand full power to do whatever, completely clean house, and they are never allowed to because Dolan/entrenched issues, and therefore never take the job and Knicks continue to suck. I thought Phil would have enough mojo to get that autonomy, but either he (maybe partially true) plus he lacked FO experience, so didn't have a team to replace the Mills\Houston\Harkenstein\anonymous dbags we don't know of\etc because he doesn't have those sorts of contacts, since he was a coach.

Wake me up when the Knicks hire one of those OKC\Spurs types and lots of dudes in suits are sent packing from MSG. Otherwise, it'll be hundreds of guys on here typing the same sets of complaints/false hopes they have been on internet message boards for going on almost 20 years. Which I sort of like, but I like to take a mallet to my nuts twice a day.

No idea you were kinky like that. LOL. It's really true, so when they put Mills in as a stop gap (he may be the most malleable FO guy on any team), we praise him when he doesn't do anything -- because we're all hoping that's part of his plan, not a reflection of his inability to do what's right.

I think Phil, clearly one of the best coaches in NBA history, had to learn how to survive in the Front Office. Like any rookie, he made his share of mistakes, and he got owned by some of the veterans (both on his team and other teams). Whether or not he was good enough to learn how to do his job well, he never had a chance to learn to do it. Our best hope, of course, is a seasoned and successful executive who understands what we need and has the chops to push through his agenda. I don't see Dolan hiring such a person, because I don't think he really wants to give up his power over the team. I don't think he trusts anybody to give them autonomy in running his team, because it's his money.

[thebuzzardman]

On a side note, it's not shocking that there would be something of a division between contingents on the team of "triangle/fundamental guy" tilt vs "spread it out, run, athlete". Of course, best is the players who can do it all, but I get that there could be that thing of guys who see where the NBA is now and Phil, who was a little bit more old school.

On a related note, articles like Berman's piece that suddenly appeared in the post from Knick "sources" sound a lot like new Knick FO PR damage control, where they are trying to get the word out at they do, in fact, welcome athletes/scoring/pace, to rebuild some rep in terms of attracting FA's. Seems like a common sense thing to do, just wanted to point that out.

[BKlutch]

On a side note, it's not shocking that there would be something of a division between contingents on the team of "triangle/fundamental guy" tilt vs "spread it out, run, athlete". Of course, best is the players who can do it all, but I get that there could be that thing of guys who see where the NBA is now and Phil, who was a little bit more old school.

On a related note, articles like Berman's piece that suddenly appeared in the post from Knick "sources" sound a lot like new Knick FO PR damage control, where they are trying to get the word out at they do, in fact, welcome athletes/scoring/pace, to rebuild some rep in terms of attracting FA's. Seems like a common sense thing to do, just wanted to point that out.

They talk to reporters more than Phil did (did he ever talk with them off the record, or did he just feed Rosen?), so they won't savage him as much. He helps them to do their job, and they have more incentive to back off the "Knicks are and always will be shyt" meme.

I really don't know if the triangle would have worked with the right players and coaching, but half a triangle is what? Just an angle...

[thebuzzardman]

On a side note, it's not shocking that there would be something of a division between contingents on the team of "triangle/fundamental guy" tilt vs "spread it out, run, athlete". Of course, best is the players who can do it all, but I get that there could be that thing of guys who see where the NBA is now and Phil, who was a little bit more old school.

On a related note, articles like Berman's piece that suddenly appeared in the post from Knick "sources" sound a lot like new Knick FO PR damage control, where they are trying to get the word out at they do, in fact, welcome athletes/scoring/pace, to rebuild some rep in terms of attracting FA's. Seems like a common sense thing to do, just wanted to point that out.

They talk to reporters more than Phil did (did he ever talk with them off the record, or did he just feed Rosen?), so they won't savage him as much. He helps them to do their job, and they have more incentive to back off the "Knicks are and always will be shyt" meme.

I really don't know if the triangle would have worked with the right players and coaching, but half a triangle is what? Just an angle...

All that stuff is overblown. Phil ultimately was saying "Move and share the ball". Maybe I'm wrong.

[BKlutch]

On a side note, it's not shocking that there would be something of a division between contingents on the team of "triangle/fundamental guy" tilt vs "spread it out, run, athlete". Of course, best is the players who can do it all, but I get that there could be that thing of guys who see where the NBA is now and Phil, who was a little bit more old school.

On a related note, articles like Berman's piece that suddenly appeared in the post from Knick "sources" sound a lot like new Knick FO PR damage control, where they are trying to get the word out at they do, in fact, welcome athletes/scoring/pace, to rebuild some rep in terms of attracting FA's. Seems like a common sense thing to do, just wanted to point that out.

They talk to reporters more than Phil did (did he ever talk with them off the record, or did he just feed Rosen?), so they won't savage him as much. He helps them to do their job, and they have more incentive to back off the "Knicks are and always will be shyt" meme.

I really don't know if the triangle would have worked with the right players and coaching, but half a triangle is what? Just an angle...

All that stuff is overblown. Phil ultimately was saying "Move and share the ball". Maybe I'm wrong.

He probably really most wanted "system basketball" and that does mean "move and share the ball." But he gave it a name, and tried to teach a lot of plays. Unfortunately, many guys really couldn't learn the plays and on the court, they couldn't react to the other team by going into the right set. It really takes great players with great BBIQ and a great attitude. I don't see much of that in the NBA. This is why we see GSW and SAS winning year over year. I think Lebron has given his team a lot of structure, but he is really unique, and we won't see many more of him. It would have taken Phil a long time to get this all set up, and he didn't have that much time.

[duetta]

Hey all!

Here are this year's notes from Orlando Summer League. Hopefully some things of interest in here.

Thank you for the report, which adds perspective to what we were able to see from a distance and read. I remember your reports from previous years.

Do excuse the rough response, as we are an incredibly frustrated and angry fan base at the moment.

[Smitty731]

Hey all!

Here are this year's notes from Orlando Summer League. Hopefully some things of interest in here.

Thank you for the report, which adds perspective to what we were able to see from a distance and read. I remember your reports from previous years.

Do excuse the rough response, as we are an incredibly frustrated and angry fan base at the moment.

No worries. Comes with the territory. I get off easy compared to most!

[MaseInYourFace]

Those guys are untouchable in a way. Tough luck for Phil, but he chose this job without envioning the strife that would emanate from clashing with the Dolan faithfuls.

This is the SINGLE BIGGEST problem with the Knicks. Dolan is the controlling influence, and he doesn't know squat about basketball. A committee of some of our elders on this board (ok, luminaries, not elders LOL) could easily have made us competitive years ago. But bring in any new guy, not just a weirdo like Phil, and he's never really going to be able to do what is right because of Dolan. As long as Dolan is the owner, the the most likely way for us to become great is through luck. And that's not all that likely.

I would bet most owners don't know that much about basketball or they come in knowing very little but I think the point is they either make sure to learn and get up to speed or make sure to put the right basketball people in place. Dolan on the other hand...

[NoLayupRule]

its a shame that we have so many vocal posters who just want to crap on things

this is a guy who doesnt need to post here but is giving us his experience from actually being there and talking to other professionals at summer league

hes not selling anything
hes not trying to get you to follow his twitter account

he's just sharing some info


and so many people have to bash, insult and be rude

I dont get it

[NoLayupRule]

Hey all!

Here are this year's notes from Orlando Summer League. Hopefully some things of interest in here.

Thank you for the report, which adds perspective to what we were able to see from a distance and read. I remember your reports from previous years.

Do excuse the rough response, as we are an incredibly frustrated and angry fan base at the moment.

No worries. Comes with the territory. I get off easy compared to most!

yes, that was well said

thank you very much

[NoLayupRule]

On a side note, it's not shocking that there would be something of a division between contingents on the team of "triangle/fundamental guy" tilt vs "spread it out, run, athlete". Of course, best is the players who can do it all, but I get that there could be that thing of guys who see where the NBA is now and Phil, who was a little bit more old school.

On a related note, articles like Berman's piece that suddenly appeared in the post from Knick "sources" sound a lot like new Knick FO PR damage control, where they are trying to get the word out at they do, in fact, welcome athletes/scoring/pace, to rebuild some rep in terms of attracting FA's. Seems like a common sense thing to do, just wanted to point that out.

They talk to reporters more than Phil did (did he ever talk with them off the record, or did he just feed Rosen?), so they won't savage him as much. He helps them to do their job, and they have more incentive to back off the "Knicks are and always will be shyt" meme.

I really don't know if the triangle would have worked with the right players and coaching, but half a triangle is what? Just an angle...

All that stuff is overblown. Phil ultimately was saying "Move and share the ball". Maybe I'm wrong.

I agree with you

for all his many mistakes the triangle wasn't such a big one

perhaps it was pushing the name over the concept, as you just described it, of moving the ball and moving without the ball

i dont know why thats controversial or outdated

[BKlutch]

Hey all!

Here are this year's notes from Orlando Summer League. Hopefully some things of interest in here.

Thank you for the report, which adds perspective to what we were able to see from a distance and read. I remember your reports from previous years.

Do excuse the rough response, as we are an incredibly frustrated and angry fan base at the moment.

No worries. Comes with the territory. I get off easy compared to most!

Some guys here see "Boston" and they see red. Some didn't really read what you wrote. We really do appreciate seeing what was said by those in responsible positions with the teams, and thanks for being so chill with the shade thrown your way. You're welcome here any time you have something to share.

[AmazingJason]

They talk to reporters more than Phil did (did he ever talk with them off the record, or did he just feed Rosen?), so they won't savage him as much. He helps them to do their job, and they have more incentive to back off the "Knicks are and always will be shyt" meme.

I really don't know if the triangle would have worked with the right players and coaching, but half a triangle is what? Just an angle...

All that stuff is overblown. Phil ultimately was saying "Move and share the ball". Maybe I'm wrong.

I agree with you

for all his many mistakes the triangle wasn't such a big one

perhaps it was pushing the name over the concept, as you just described it, of moving the ball and moving without the ball

i dont know why thats controversial or outdated

It was doomed to fail from the start because Phil wasn't the one coaching. Running the triangle is fine, but it became obvious he wanted it run exactly to his specifications - the pure triangle like the Lakers and Bulls ran it - and not anything less than that. In that case, Phil should have came down from the front office to coach. The offense is complex, the playbook has hundreds of pages, probably thousands of "plays" due to the number of options. The only known triangle gurus out there are Kurt Rambis and Brian Shaw, and they're already badly failed former NBA head coaches. So it was pretty much a lose-lose for Phil. Fisher had zero coaching experience, didn't want to run the triangle, and got fired. Hornacek doesn't have the knowledge to teach the triangle, he has his own offense, and Phil made him dump it for the triangle not even one season in. Phil had this vision of us being like the Spurs, but Pop coaches the team and Phil doesn't.

[NBA Fan 1234]

Thanks, Smitty.

To everyone being dicks to either Smitty or your fellow poster, quit it. If you don't want to read what he has to say, don't come in the thread. Entering it just to create an issue does no good whatsoever and only leads to suspensions. Keep it civil or you'll be suspended. Thanks.

[blueNorange]

lol at people catching feelings because it turned out a dude drafted in the middle of the 2nd round didnt wow knick officials.

[thebuzzardman]

Thanks, Smitty.

To everyone being dicks to either Smitty or your fellow poster, quit it. If you don't want to read what he has to say, don't come in the thread. Entering it just to create an issue does no good whatsoever and only leads to suspensions. Keep it civil or you'll be suspended. Thanks.

Yeah, it's not a good look to be rude to the guy









Says the guy who gave him a ton of sh*t last year - me