OFFICIAL: Welcome BACK to New York THJr (4/71m)

[3toheadmelo]

Hawks fan really high on him, some interesting stuff https://www.reddit.com/r/NYKnicks/comments/6m39qf/tim_hardaway_jr_could_be_the_next_big_thing/

we should sticky that to the first page of this thread

exciting stuff

[mwm78]

At the end of the day I hope Timmy doesn't hamper the offensive development of Frank, who I see as more of a wing player than a point guard.

Where do you come up with Frank being more of a wing player than a PG? The kid is 18 and has been playing PG in France since like 15/16 so a few years and was drafted to be a PG so where some fans come up with their own logic is beyond me, any particular reason you feel he can't be a PG?

[DowNY]

Yall cant even blame Phil for yet ANOTHER blunder

Phil's blunder of Joakim Noah won't be topped for a long time

[stuporman]

Players use the Knicks to leverage more money from other teams in FA and also use the Knicks as leverage against themselves to get more money. It's bad enough to get outbid and lose to other teams but the Knicks have perfected bidding against themselves and still losing......

[Worst_to_First]

At the end of the day I hope Timmy doesn't hamper the offensive development of Frank, who I see as more of a wing player than a point guard.

Where do you come up with Frank being more of a wing player than a PG? The kid is 18 and has been playing PG in France since like 15/16 so a few years and was drafted to be a PG so where some fans come up with their own logic is beyond me, any particular reason you feel he can't be a PG?

Assess his ability to break NBA defenses down.

[KnicksGadfly]

Yall cant even blame Phil for yet ANOTHER blunder

Phil's blunder of Joakim Noah won't be topped for a long time

sheeit bro, how long was that noah contract again? I'm sure it's almost expiring by the way will has feelings for phil

[Sark]

Yall cant even blame Phil for yet ANOTHER blunder

Why not? This is the Knicks board after all.

[Im Coming Home]

Great post from Reddit that actually gets me excited and hopeful for THJr.

As someone who really stopped following THJr after we traded him, it really surprised me. Just read up on the kid, he's a good player. We gotta let the whole trade/no defense stuff from his rookie year leave our minds because he seemed to improve almost his entire game after leaving.

Hawks fan here that fell in love with THJ last April and thought he was an integral part of our future. I'm pretty sad we didn't match the contract, and here's why. (most of this is an x-post from a submission I made on the Hawks subreddit).

**THJ have it all, baby.**

Tim Hardaway is a special type of player. On the Knicks he was known as a pure scorer, and on the Hawks he hasn't been much at all, except inconsistent. At least that's what some folks will tell you.. but let me direct your attention to some STATS.

http://stats.nba.com/team/#!/1610612737/players-traditional/?sort=PLUS_MINUS&dir=1

**Concern 1: THJ doesn't make the team better.**

STAT: Tim Hardaway Junior had the highest plus minus on the Atlanta Hawks outside of the GOAT baby giraffe and the criminally underrated Lamar Patterson. That's higher than Paul Millsap and the rest of our bench.

[When Timmy is off the court,](http://stats.nba.com/team/#!/1610612737/onoffcourt-advanced/) our ORTG plummets from 106 to 98, while our DRTG stays about the same.

**Concern 2: Tim is too inconsistent**

STAT: in the 48 regular season games THJ played after 01/01/2017 (henceforth referred to as T-Day), he scored less than 10 points in only 7 of those games. In 24 out of 48 games, THJ shot above 40% on 3s. In only 11 games did THJ earn a TS% less than 50%.

**Concern 3: Tim is a bad defender**

STAT: Tim has a Defensive Rating of 103.1, which was higher than Thabo, Kent, and Dennis. The only players who played big minutes and actually had a higher DRTG were Paul and Delaney. Tim is also 6'6", which makes him the perfect size to guard other 2s. He just needs some more time at Hawks University before he comes out a plus defender.

**Concern 4: Tim just isn't worth the money.**

STAT: in 2017, over 48 games (THAT'S MORE THAN HALF THE SEASON), THJ scored 17 points a game on 47/39/81 splits. That's better than Dion Waiters, Kevin Love, Jrue Holiday, Batum, Eric Gordon, Jeff Teague, and many many others.

Let's look at some comparable players who have received or are expected to receive a good amount of money-- around $15M a season.

|Rk|Player|Season|Age|G|GS|FG|FGA|FG%|3P|3PA|3P%|FT%|ORB|DRB|TRB|AST|STL|BLK|TOV|PF|PTS|
|-:|:-|:-|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|
|1|Tim Hardaway|2016-17|24|79|30|6.9|15.2|.455|2.5|7.0|.357|.766|0.6|3.2|3.7|3.0|0.9|0.3|1.8|1.7|19.1|
|2|Dion Waiters|2016-17|25|46|43|7.3|17.2|.424|2.2|5.6|.395|.646|0.5|3.5|4.0|5.2|1.1|0.5|2.7|2.5|19.0|
|3|Evan Fournier|2016-17|24|68|66|6.6|15.0|.439|2.1|5.8|.356|.805|0.7|2.7|3.4|3.3|1.1|0.1|2.3|2.9|18.8|
|4|Otto Porter|2016-17|23|80|80|5.7|11.1|.516|2.0|4.7|.434|.832|1.6|5.5|7.1|1.7|1.6|0.6|0.6|2.7|14.9|

Keep in mind THJ only started 30 games this season and averaged a little over 27 minutes a game. That means less time to get comfortable on the floor, less time to mesh with his teammates. Yet per 36, THJ outscored his colleagues. And then you have to keep in mind that these stats include pre T-Day games, which explains his mediocre shooting splits. I wish I could compare all 4 players using only 2017 stats, but that would require more work than i can be bothered to do.

But here's the thing. THJ is only 25 years old now, and he's already shown what he can do.

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

When Tim took that 3 to tie the game on T-Day, and then drew the foul in OT for the game-winning free throws, he transcended his physical form from a mere basketball player on his rookie contract into the next big thing. He's proven that he has what it takes to drag a team to victory on at least 2 separate occasions (See: the T-Day spurs game and Rockets game linked above). He's shown the work ethic, the grit, the grind that it takes to improve across the 2 seasons he's spent at Hawks University.

AND THEN you have to consider that Tim only has room to grow.

|Season|Age|Tm|Lg|Pos|G|GS|MP|FG|FGA|FG%|3P|3PA|3P%|2P|2PA|2P%|FT|FTA|FT%|ORB|DRB|TRB|AST|STL|BLK|TOV|PF|PTS|
|:-|-:|:-|:-|:-|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|
|2015-16|23|ATL|NBA|SG|51|1|864|4.7|11.0|.430|2.0|5.9|.338|2.7|5.1|.537|2.1|2.3|.893|0.3|3.3|3.6|2.1|0.9|0.3|1.0|2.0|13.6|
|2016-17|24|ATL|NBA|SG|79|30|2154|6.9|15.2|.455|2.5|7.0|.357|4.4|8.3|.537|2.7|3.6|.766|0.6|3.2|3.7|3.0|0.9|0.3|1.8|1.7|19.1|


Provided by [Basketball-Reference.com](http://www.sports-reference.com/sharing.html?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool): [View Original Table](http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardati02.html?sr&utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool#per_minute)
Generated 7/6/2017.

Over two years, per 36 minutes, THJ has developed his game in almost every area, on a worse team, while asked to take more of the offensive burden. And he's improved his efficiency while doing so.

If Evan Fournier got a $21M/Yr contract last year, if Dion Waiters was a steal at $13M/Yr this year, and if Otto Porter can earn a max this year, THJ is worth at least $15M/Yr. If the Hawks could have retained him for any amount less than that, it would have been an outright steal, but $71M/~4Yrs was obviously enough to force Atlanta's hand. You might say Timmy's been overpaid by $10 Million or so, but $2.5M a year is not the difference between a great contract and a terrible contract. Timmy will out-perform his contract and shine next to Porzingis. And obviously there are people angry about the initial trade, the Rose acquisition, etc. But that's all in the past. What's important is that over the next 4 years, you have a new partner for Kristaps and Frank to play off of, and whether you think you need to tank further (please don't) or develop with the pieces you have now (and get from a Melo trade), I think Timmy will prove to be an important part of your future.

And seriously. Watch this

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

again. He scored 22 of our last 28 points to bring us back from a 13 point deficit in the 4th. He shot the 3ball, he drove, he drew fouls, and he slammed that **** ball for the W. How could you think this kid's not going to be worth some serious money?

[camillepd]

Noah is not an albatross. Noah when healthy is still a useful player.

[CANiLIVE]

He was healthy all of last year but was only out at the beginning because his wife had brain cancer. Also, I'd easily take Otto at $100m over THJR at his price but that point is moot because Washington is matching...wonder why Atlanta is not.

Ok enlighten me on how extacly is Otto better for 100 million, Otto isn't a franchise player, if we had Otto 100 lord have mercy it would post saying how knicks are paying him more than Jordan blah blah blah, both players are young with upside but what makes Otto a 100 million dollar guy and there's absolutely no up roar but this Timmy signing is so bad.

im not sure how one team making a terrible contract with an average player makes this contract better

one bad contract dosent make another one better
thats a meaningless argument

The contract is what the nba is right now you can't blame anybody for how you stomach it, next year some star will get 300 million and the " avg players" that are young with upside will only go up.

[Oscirus]

Ok enlighten me on how extacly is Otto better for 100 million, Otto isn't a franchise player, if we had Otto 100 lord have mercy it would post saying how knicks are paying him more than Jordan blah blah blah, both players are young with upside but what makes Otto a 100 million dollar guy and there's absolutely no up roar but this Timmy signing is so bad.

im not sure how one team making a terrible contract with an average player makes this contract better

one bad contract dosent make another one better
thats a meaningless argument

The contract is what the nba is right now you can't blame anybody for how you stomach it, next year some star will get 300 million and the " avg players" that are young with upside will only go up.

That excuse doesn't work in this case because nobody else was offering him anything close to this. If the Knicks offered baker 10 a year to return would you be cool with that because contracts are higher?

[DowNY]

Noah is not an albatross. Noah when healthy is still a useful player.

He's really not.

[DowNY]

Great post from Reddit that actually gets me excited and hopeful for THJr.

Hawks fan here that fell in love with THJ last April and thought he was an integral part of our future. I'm pretty sad we didn't match the contract, and here's why. (most of this is an x-post from a submission I made on the Hawks subreddit).

**THJ have it all, baby.**

Tim Hardaway is a special type of player. On the Knicks he was known as a pure scorer, and on the Hawks he hasn't been much at all, except inconsistent. At least that's what some folks will tell you.. but let me direct your attention to some STATS.

http://stats.nba.com/team/#!/1610612737/players-traditional/?sort=PLUS_MINUS&dir=1

**Concern 1: THJ doesn't make the team better.**

STAT: Tim Hardaway Junior had the highest plus minus on the Atlanta Hawks outside of the GOAT baby giraffe and the criminally underrated Lamar Patterson. That's higher than Paul Millsap and the rest of our bench.

[When Timmy is off the court,](http://stats.nba.com/team/#!/1610612737/onoffcourt-advanced/) our ORTG plummets from 106 to 98, while our DRTG stays about the same.

**Concern 2: Tim is too inconsistent**

STAT: in the 48 regular season games THJ played after 01/01/2017 (henceforth referred to as T-Day), he scored less than 10 points in only 7 of those games. In 24 out of 48 games, THJ shot above 40% on 3s. In only 11 games did THJ earn a TS% less than 50%.

**Concern 3: Tim is a bad defender**

STAT: Tim has a Defensive Rating of 103.1, which was higher than Thabo, Kent, and Dennis. The only players who played big minutes and actually had a higher DRTG were Paul and Delaney. Tim is also 6'6", which makes him the perfect size to guard other 2s. He just needs some more time at Hawks University before he comes out a plus defender.

**Concern 4: Tim just isn't worth the money.**

STAT: in 2017, over 48 games (THAT'S MORE THAN HALF THE SEASON), THJ scored 17 points a game on 47/39/81 splits. That's better than Dion Waiters, Kevin Love, Jrue Holiday, Batum, Eric Gordon, Jeff Teague, and many many others.

Let's look at some comparable players who have received or are expected to receive a good amount of money-- around $15M a season.

|Rk|Player|Season|Age|G|GS|FG|FGA|FG%|3P|3PA|3P%|FT%|ORB|DRB|TRB|AST|STL|BLK|TOV|PF|PTS|
|-:|:-|:-|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|
|1|Tim Hardaway|2016-17|24|79|30|6.9|15.2|.455|2.5|7.0|.357|.766|0.6|3.2|3.7|3.0|0.9|0.3|1.8|1.7|19.1|
|2|Dion Waiters|2016-17|25|46|43|7.3|17.2|.424|2.2|5.6|.395|.646|0.5|3.5|4.0|5.2|1.1|0.5|2.7|2.5|19.0|
|3|Evan Fournier|2016-17|24|68|66|6.6|15.0|.439|2.1|5.8|.356|.805|0.7|2.7|3.4|3.3|1.1|0.1|2.3|2.9|18.8|
|4|Otto Porter|2016-17|23|80|80|5.7|11.1|.516|2.0|4.7|.434|.832|1.6|5.5|7.1|1.7|1.6|0.6|0.6|2.7|14.9|

Keep in mind THJ only started 30 games this season and averaged a little over 27 minutes a game. That means less time to get comfortable on the floor, less time to mesh with his teammates. Yet per 36, THJ outscored his colleagues. And then you have to keep in mind that these stats include pre T-Day games, which explains his mediocre shooting splits. I wish I could compare all 4 players using only 2017 stats, but that would require more work than i can be bothered to do.

But here's the thing. THJ is only 25 years old now, and he's already shown what he can do.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

When Tim took that 3 to tie the game on T-Day, and then drew the foul in OT for the game-winning free throws, he transcended his physical form from a mere basketball player on his rookie contract into the next big thing. He's proven that he has what it takes to drag a team to victory on at least 2 separate occasions (See: the T-Day spurs game and Rockets game linked above). He's shown the work ethic, the grit, the grind that it takes to improve across the 2 seasons he's spent at Hawks University.

AND THEN you have to consider that Tim only has room to grow.

|Season|Age|Tm|Lg|Pos|G|GS|MP|FG|FGA|FG%|3P|3PA|3P%|2P|2PA|2P%|FT|FTA|FT%|ORB|DRB|TRB|AST|STL|BLK|TOV|PF|PTS|
|:-|-:|:-|:-|:-|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|
|2015-16|23|ATL|NBA|SG|51|1|864|4.7|11.0|.430|2.0|5.9|.338|2.7|5.1|.537|2.1|2.3|.893|0.3|3.3|3.6|2.1|0.9|0.3|1.0|2.0|13.6|
|2016-17|24|ATL|NBA|SG|79|30|2154|6.9|15.2|.455|2.5|7.0|.357|4.4|8.3|.537|2.7|3.6|.766|0.6|3.2|3.7|3.0|0.9|0.3|1.8|1.7|19.1|


Provided by [Basketball-Reference.com](http://www.sports-reference.com/sharing.html?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool): [View Original Table](http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardati02.html?sr&utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool#per_minute)
Generated 7/6/2017.

Over two years, per 36 minutes, THJ has developed his game in almost every area, on a worse team, while asked to take more of the offensive burden. And he's improved his efficiency while doing so.

If Evan Fournier got a $21M/Yr contract last year, if Dion Waiters was a steal at $13M/Yr this year, and if Otto Porter can earn a max this year, THJ is worth at least $15M/Yr. If the Hawks could have retained him for any amount less than that, it would have been an outright steal, but $71M/~4Yrs was obviously enough to force Atlanta's hand. You might say Timmy's been overpaid by $10 Million or so, but $2.5M a year is not the difference between a great contract and a terrible contract. Timmy will out-perform his contract and shine next to Porzingis. And obviously there are people angry about the initial trade, the Rose acquisition, etc. But that's all in the past. What's important is that over the next 4 years, you have a new partner for Kristaps and Frank to play off of, and whether you think you need to tank further (please don't) or develop with the pieces you have now (and get from a Melo trade), I think Timmy will prove to be an important part of your future.

And seriously. Watch [this]

Watch on YouTube

again. He scored 22 of our last 28 points to bring us back from a 13 point deficit in the 4th. He shot the 3ball, he drove, he drew fouls, and he slammed that **** ball for the W. How could you think this kid's not going to be worth some serious money?

[god shammgod]

Noah is not an albatross. Noah when healthy is still a useful player.

He's really not.

there is no use for slow bigs without any offensive ability anymore. they're dinosaurs. you don't pay them much anymore if you're smart.

[GEOLINK]

Wow finally a shooter that can drive to the basket and not settle for ISO ALL THE TIME.

[CANiLIVE]

im not sure how one team making a terrible contract with an average player makes this contract better

one bad contract dosent make another one better
thats a meaningless argument

The contract is what the nba is right now you can't blame anybody for how you stomach it, next year some star will get 300 million and the " avg players" that are young with upside will only go up.

That excuse doesn't work in this case because nobody else was offering him anything close to this. If the Knicks offered baker 10 a year to return would you be cool with that because contracts are higher?

Idk what anybody offered him, I know the hawks said they were expecting 45 50 million they would match, 71 million yes is a lot, but knicks wanted him and had to off more than 50 obviously, it's over blown because the knicks did it, everybody crying for nothing.

Baker wasn't in the running for most improved baker hasn't shown he could be a full time starter, baker hasn't had the time in the NBA hardaway jr has.

My point being yes it's a lot of money that's that's the nba look around the nba, of course it gets overblown because it's New York and that's a fact, all hell would break lose if we signed Kelly to 50 million or James Johnson to 50 million.

You take chances on young talent obviously that's what every NBA is.

[EchelonNYK]

Players use the Knicks to leverage more money from other teams in FA and also use the Knicks as leverage against themselves to get more money. It's bad enough to get outbid and lose to other teams but the Knicks have perfected bidding against themselves and still losing......

Hawks front office right now

[EchelonNYK]

You know what makes it even more painful? Is that THjr wasn't on my list of free agents i wanted to pursue. Let alone give the man 71 million.

[Tron Carter]

Players use the Knicks to leverage more money from other teams in FA and also use the Knicks as leverage against themselves to get more money. It's bad enough to get outbid and lose to other teams but the Knicks have perfected bidding against themselves and still losing......

Hawks front office right now

yeah until they see what they paying bazemore

[Tron Carter]

Noah is not an albatross. Noah when healthy is still a useful player.

lolwut. noah is without question the worst contract in the league.