OFFICIAL: Welcome BACK to New York THJr (4/71m)

[JM88]

For those that like THJ but not at what he was signed for, which is understandable, please tell me what you would be willing to give THJ in a 4 year deal?

50 would be a good, and fair contract if he was unrestricted. Restricted cost a little more, and 60 would be the most i would be comfortable with. I do understand, and can accept this 71 million offer though. I just think it is a number that projects what he can become, which is risky. What i dislike the most is actually the trade kicker, player option, and payment-structure, because it increases the risk, limits his value - and shoudn't have been necessary to include.

[Juggynaut]

I was flabbergasted with the price but I didn't watch the Hawks at all so I didn't know how much Timmy has improved and his stats were much better than I thought. It's still an overpay and the most I would offer was around 65 million without the trade kicker, I actually could see the player option helping us but I can't predict the future.

[dakomish23]

Im sorry but as Greenie just stated nicer than I you don't know **** about cap structure. Who do you want signed in 2020? 35 year old Lebron, 36 year old Wade and Kwai Leonard? Please wake up from this dream world you are living in.

I don't know cap structure? You don't know what a mid level exception contract is

The absurd arrogance by some fans is hilarious

I want to tank, use cap space to get assets (like facilitating the LAC S&T) and go shopping when the only big contracts on the books will be KP and WHG, who will be hitting their primes, when the cap is higher

Did I say anything about signing aging guys in 2020? Nope. You came up with that in a failed attempt to strengthen your terrible argument.

Here's some of the FAs in 2019 & 2020

Harden
Kawhi
Irving
Draymond
Butler
Davis

This contract cuts into your ability to pair two of those guys with KP WHG Frank & whomever else we draft with the likely top 10 lottery picks we get the next few years.

So you sacrifice that possibility for THJ on this contract??

Yeah. I'm the crazy one

Arrogant...... You .....

What I have seen on this thread today are some of the craziest reactions I have seen in years! I am shocked that so many "Knicks fans" could be this short-sighted after so long in these forums......

Just to get this out of the way........
1)MLE counts rookie scale and min contracts as well. These contracts rarely make a differance in the free agency market. I am referring to contracts going into your 4th-5th year of service and above.You can say whatever it is you want about THJ but it doesn't change the fact that it is middle of the road for comparable players in the same max bracket and players in their 3rd free agency period.

2) Signing THJ is in no way comparable to signing 31 year old Noah to a 4 year deal at the same price for accomplishments in the past or making a quick fix trade for washed up players you think can bounce back from that injury that is 100%. The Knicks signed a player entering his prime years. This is a guy who they drafted in the first round and developed for 2 years during an all time low year with huge turnover and Phil takeover. THJ actually showed a spark when this team was on life support during that time. This MFer actually saved us from taking Russell or Okafor instead of KP!! IMO they are righting the wrong that Phil made by trading him for Jerian Grant. Stop acting like THJ can't play!!!

Now let me breakdown what this particular genious' master plans are for the Knicks in the next 3 years:

You want to tank right? Guess what buddy so do about 8 or 9 other teams this season. I am all about getting a top pick but do you know how badly you have to perform to be in the bottom 5 right now? The Knicks have enough young talent and players who give a **** this year to get over 25 wins. Being the worst is very hard. I'm sure you want to keep KP and Willy right? We are not in year one of this rebuild. Let the young guys take the reins without a giant triangle hanging over them in a system they can enjoy. They are the key at this point. We have KP, Willy and THJ who have all been named to the first team all rookie team 3 out of the last 4 years as Knicks and Frank who a lot of us feel can be a really good player we will enjoy watching develop. Keep these guys together and build on.

Ok ok ok.....you want to wait until the only 2 big contracts on the team are Willy and KP? Soooo when they are restricted free agents you will be cool with resigning them both to max contracts right? (Well duhhh they will take a discount to stay with the Knicks) Wrong! They will go out and find the team that is willing to give it to them and force the Knicks to match. Lets just estimate that in 2 years the max for a player like KP will be $27-32 million on probably a $102-110 million cap. Thats about $60 mil between both of them, not counting Frank and anyone else still on the roster because I would only assume that over these 2-3 years we have found some other young pieces to put around our guys? So lets say we have $75 mil commited to be extremely generous and about $30-35 mil in cap space. Now tell me.....which one of those guys oh wait you said 2 guys right? So which two guys from your list are coming to split $35 mil? None! Would be the correct answer. Look at the top 15 free agents list at the start of last season. How many of those guys actually left and how old are they? You know who you can sign In 4 years? 29 year old THJ who is now demanding $28 mil a year!!! This is how the market works people!!!!

Oh I really hope you have something to retort me with........

Ohhhhh and this is all that has happened before we find out the Melo situation and whether this signing creates a domino effect of moves we have been hearing about for a week now. We could somehow end up dumping $15-30 million by getting rid of most of the vets for other collectable assets and have just as much space we started with before Timmy and other pieces added.

Short-sighted like I said.......

What an insanely ridiculous attempt at putting down a logical solution

A. You didn't know what an MLE is. Yes it is the average of ALL contracts. Does ALL include rookie deals and vet mins? Yes it does. That's what ALL means.

B. Did I say it's as bad as the Noah deal? No I did not. I actually said the opposite multiple times. This is the 2nd time now you are bringing up points that I didn't say.

Nice try.

C. THJ saved us from taking Russell and Okafor? this is the most desperate argument I've heard yet. Yes or no - Gaines said I'd take him #1? Don't remember?

But Gaines shut out the noise, saw the very rare combination of a 7-foot-3 player who can shoot from deep, pass well and had an excellent vertical. After watching him live in Spain that February, he texted Jackson that Porzingis should be considered the No. 1 pick. His argument for Kristaps Porzingis convinced me to make that out-of-the-box choice,’’ Jackson admitted in the email.

http://nypost.com/2017/05/27/meet-phil-jacksons-knicks-draft-guru-a-respected-odd-duck/

D. Since you know less than nothing about the cap, I wouldn't expect you to understand what a cap hold is or how rookie extensions work.

The rules from the CBA FAQ

Restricted free agency gives the player's original team the right to keep the player by matching a contract the player signs with another team. This is called the "right of first refusal."

Restricted free agency exists only on a limited basis:
* Following the fourth year of rookie "scale" contracts for first round draft picks

If the player is coming off the fourth year of his rookie scale contract, then in addition to a qualifying offer, his team can also submit a maximum qualifying offer. A maximum qualifying offer is for five seasons at the maximum salary with 8% annual raises. It can contain no options, ETOs or bonuses of any kind, and must be fully guaranteed. When a team submits a maximum qualifying offer (in essence "stepping up" with a maximum contract offer before the player hits the free agent market), it places a more stringent requirement on other teams' offer sheets

Larry Bird, following the fourth season of his rookie scale contract
If they make At least the average salary1
- 250% of his previous salary (effective 2018-19) or 200% of his previous salary (2017-18 only)2
Larry Bird, following the fourth season of his rookie scale contract
If they make Below the average salary1
- 300% of his previous salary (effective 2018-19) or 250% of his previous salary (2017-18 only)2

2019 Estimated cap 108 mil

KP cap hold in 19-20 - approximately 22 mil (300%)

The cap is predicted to be 108 going into the 19-20 season

Here's our salaries

Noah
$19,295,000
Lee
$12,759,670
Frank
$4,855,800
WHG
1,577,250
--------------
38,487,720

Add in our 2018 pick (assume 8th) estimated 2nd year salary - 4,155,720
Add in our 2019 pick hold (assume 8th) - 3 .5 mil
Add in our roster charges for every spot under 13 - 815K (rookie minimum now) x 5 = 4.9 mil
Add in the guaranteed salary to LFT - 1 mil

Total it up and what do you got? Roughly 74 mil, depending on the deals we gave through that year i.e. Baker and any other picks we made or undrafted guys & how much the rookie scale is raised (starting 18-19, they are going to adjust it the same % as the cap goes up).

So roughly 34 mil in space.

Now subtract 18,150,000, the estimated salary for THJ in 19-20.

17 mil - not even enough to make a max RFA offer.

2020 estimated cap - 120 mil

KP starting salary at the 25% rate (barring being eligible for the new version of the DRose rule) will be about 27.5 mil.

Frank - 6,176,578
WHG cap hold - 2,335,875
2018 8th pick 3rd year salary 4,855,800
2019 8th pick 2nd year salary 4,155,720
-----------
45,023,973

Add in our 2020 pick hold (assume 8th) - 3.5 mil
Add in our roster charges for every spot under 13 - 815K (rookie minimum now) x 6 = 4.9 mil

Total it up and what do you got? Around 54 million, depending on the deals we gave through that year i.e. Baker and any other picks we made or undrafted guys & how much the rookie scale is raised (starting 18-19, they are going to adjust it the same % as the cap goes up).

That's 66 million in cap space.

Now subtract 18,975,000, THJ salary in 20-21, assuming he opts in. Why wouldn't he? He's being massively overpaid.

That's 47 mil in cap space.

This isn't rocket science. It's back of the napkin math. I'm sure I missed some aspect of cap minutiae.

But the simple fact remains - we could of made a huge splash in 2019 or an even bigger one in 2020. Now we are limited because we gave a massive overpay.

And you have the nerve to call me short sighted when you're throwing a parade for this short term thinking

You wrote multiple paragraphs of garbage, happily flaunting your ignorance and trying to pass it off as acumen.

You're not fooling anyone.

[dakomish23]

Need that young high volume shooter without conscience to replace the older, high volume shooter without conscience.

Who isn't half as good as the older guy was at this age and isn't even as good as the older guy is right now

[dakomish23]

For those that like THJ but not at what he was signed for, which is understandable, please tell me what you would be willing to give THJ in a 4 year deal?

50 would be a good, and fair contract if he was unrestricted. Restricted cost a little more, and 60 would be the most i would be comfortable with. I do understand, and can accept this 71 million offer though. I just think it is a number that projects what he can become, which is risky. What i dislike the most is actually the trade kicker, player option, and payment-structure, because it increases the risk, limits his value - and shoudn't have been necessary to include.

4 years 56. That's 14 per. That's even a slight reach but I could stomach that.

[French Sinatra]

I hope this contract puts a spotlight on just how incompetent Mills is at his job. I hope someone in the front office has the balls to call Mills out on his mistake. Otherwise, just flush the front office down the toilet.

[iLovethosedamnknicks]

I don't know cap structure? You don't know what a mid level exception contract is

The absurd arrogance by some fans is hilarious

I want to tank, use cap space to get assets (like facilitating the LAC S&T) and go shopping when the only big contracts on the books will be KP and WHG, who will be hitting their primes, when the cap is higher

Did I say anything about signing aging guys in 2020? Nope. You came up with that in a failed attempt to strengthen your terrible argument.

Here's some of the FAs in 2019 & 2020

Harden
Kawhi
Irving
Draymond
Butler
Davis

This contract cuts into your ability to pair two of those guys with KP WHG Frank & whomever else we draft with the likely top 10 lottery picks we get the next few years.

So you sacrifice that possibility for THJ on this contract??

Yeah. I'm the crazy one

Arrogant...... You .....

What I have seen on this thread today are some of the craziest reactions I have seen in years! I am shocked that so many "Knicks fans" could be this short-sighted after so long in these forums......

Just to get this out of the way........
1)MLE counts rookie scale and min contracts as well. These contracts rarely make a differance in the free agency market. I am referring to contracts going into your 4th-5th year of service and above.You can say whatever it is you want about THJ but it doesn't change the fact that it is middle of the road for comparable players in the same max bracket and players in their 3rd free agency period.

2) Signing THJ is in no way comparable to signing 31 year old Noah to a 4 year deal at the same price for accomplishments in the past or making a quick fix trade for washed up players you think can bounce back from that injury that is 100%. The Knicks signed a player entering his prime years. This is a guy who they drafted in the first round and developed for 2 years during an all time low year with huge turnover and Phil takeover. THJ actually showed a spark when this team was on life support during that time. This MFer actually saved us from taking Russell or Okafor instead of KP!! IMO they are righting the wrong that Phil made by trading him for Jerian Grant. Stop acting like THJ can't play!!!

Now let me breakdown what this particular genious' master plans are for the Knicks in the next 3 years:

You want to tank right? Guess what buddy so do about 8 or 9 other teams this season. I am all about getting a top pick but do you know how badly you have to perform to be in the bottom 5 right now? The Knicks have enough young talent and players who give a **** this year to get over 25 wins. Being the worst is very hard. I'm sure you want to keep KP and Willy right? We are not in year one of this rebuild. Let the young guys take the reins without a giant triangle hanging over them in a system they can enjoy. They are the key at this point. We have KP, Willy and THJ who have all been named to the first team all rookie team 3 out of the last 4 years as Knicks and Frank who a lot of us feel can be a really good player we will enjoy watching develop. Keep these guys together and build on.

Ok ok ok.....you want to wait until the only 2 big contracts on the team are Willy and KP? Soooo when they are restricted free agents you will be cool with resigning them both to max contracts right? (Well duhhh they will take a discount to stay with the Knicks) Wrong! They will go out and find the team that is willing to give it to them and force the Knicks to match. Lets just estimate that in 2 years the max for a player like KP will be $27-32 million on probably a $102-110 million cap. Thats about $60 mil between both of them, not counting Frank and anyone else still on the roster because I would only assume that over these 2-3 years we have found some other young pieces to put around our guys? So lets say we have $75 mil commited to be extremely generous and about $30-35 mil in cap space. Now tell me.....which one of those guys oh wait you said 2 guys right? So which two guys from your list are coming to split $35 mil? None! Would be the correct answer. Look at the top 15 free agents list at the start of last season. How many of those guys actually left and how old are they? You know who you can sign In 4 years? 29 year old THJ who is now demanding $28 mil a year!!! This is how the market works people!!!!

Oh I really hope you have something to retort me with........

Ohhhhh and this is all that has happened before we find out the Melo situation and whether this signing creates a domino effect of moves we have been hearing about for a week now. We could somehow end up dumping $15-30 million by getting rid of most of the vets for other collectable assets and have just as much space we started with before Timmy and other pieces added.

Short-sighted like I said.......

What an insanely ridiculous attempt at putting down a logical solution

A. You didn't know what an MLE is. Yes it the average of ALL contracts. Does ALL include rookie deals and vet mins? Yes it does. That's what ALL means.

B. Did I say it's as bad as the Noah deal? No I did not. I actually said the opposite multiple times. This is the 2nd time now you are bringing up points that I didn't say.

Nice try.

C. THJ saved us from taking Russell and Okafor? this is the most desperate argument I've heard yet. Yes or no - Gaines said I'd take him #1? Don't remember?

But Gaines shut out the noise, saw the very rare combination of a 7-foot-3 player who can shoot from deep, pass well and had an excellent vertical. After watching him live in Spain that February, he texted Jackson that Porzingis should be considered the No. 1 pick. His argument for Kristaps Porzingis convinced me to make that out-of-the-box choice,’’ Jackson admitted in the email.

http://nypost.com/2017/05/27/meet-phil-jacksons-knicks-draft-guru-a-respected-odd-duck/

D. Since you know less than nothing about the cap, I wouldn't expect you to understand what a cap hold is or how rookie extensions work.

The rules from the CBA FAQ

Restricted free agency gives the player's original team the right to keep the player by matching a contract the player signs with another team. This is called the "right of first refusal."

Restricted free agency exists only on a limited basis:
* Following the fourth year of rookie "scale" contracts for first round draft picks

If the player is coming off the fourth year of his rookie scale contract, then in addition to a qualifying offer, his team can also submit a maximum qualifying offer. A maximum qualifying offer is for five seasons at the maximum salary with 8% annual raises. It can contain no options, ETOs or bonuses of any kind, and must be fully guaranteed. When a team submits a maximum qualifying offer (in essence "stepping up" with a maximum contract offer before the player hits the free agent market), it places a more stringent requirement on other teams' offer sheets

Larry Bird, following the fourth season of his rookie scale contract
If they make At least the average salary1
- 250% of his previous salary (effective 2018-19) or 200% of his previous salary (2017-18 only)2
Larry Bird, following the fourth season of his rookie scale contract
If they make Below the average salary1
- 300% of his previous salary (effective 2018-19) or 250% of his previous salary (2017-18 only)2

2019 Estimated cap 108 mil

KP cap hold in 19-20 - approximately 22 mil (300%)

The cap is predicted to be 108 going into the 19-20 season

Here's our salaries

Noah
$19,295,000
Lee
$12,759,670
Frank
$4,855,800
WHG
1,577,250
--------------
38,487,720

Add in our 2018 pick (assume 8th) estimated 2nd year salary - 4,155,720
Add in our 2019 pick hold (assume 8th) - 3 .5 mil
Add in our roster charges for every spot under 13 - 815K (rookie minimum now) x 5 = 4.9 mil
Add in the guaranteed salary to LFT - 1 mil

Total it up and what do you got? Roughly 74 mil, depending on the deals we gave through that year i.e. Baker and any other picks we made or undrafted guys & how much the rookie scale is raised (starting 18-19, they are going to adjust it the same % as the cap goes up).

So roughly 34 mil in space.

Now subtract 18,150,000, the estimated salary for THJ in 19-20.

17 mil - not even enough to make a max RFA offer.

2020 estimated cap - 120 mil

KP starting salary at the 25% rate (barring being eligible for the new version of the DRose rule) will be about 27.5 mil.

Frank - 6,176,578
WHG cap hold - 2,335,875
2018 8th pick 3rd year salary 4,855,800
2019 8th pick 2nd year salary 4,155,720
-----------
45,023,973

Add in our 2020 pick hold (assume 8th) - 3.5 mil
Add in our roster charges for every spot under 13 - 815K (rookie minimum now) x 6 = 4.9 mil

Total it up and what do you got? Around 54 million, depending on the deals we gave through that year i.e. Baker and any other picks we made or undrafted guys & how much the rookie scale is raised (starting 18-19, they are going to adjust it the same % as the cap goes up).

That's 66 million in cap space.

Now subtract 18,975,000, THJ salary in 20-21, assuming he opts in. Why wouldn't he? He's being massively overpaid.

That's 47 mil in cap space.

This isn't rocket science. It's back of the napkin math. I'm sure I missed some aspect of cap minutiae.

But the simple fact remains - we could of made a huge splash in 2019 or an even bigger one in 2021. Now we are limited because we gave a massive overpay.

And you have the nerve to call me short sighted when you're throwing a parade for this short term thinking

You wrote multiple paragraphs of garbage, happily flaunting your ignorance and trying to pass it off as acumen.

You're not fooling anyone.

Nobody legit is signing here and nobody ever has so it don't even matter


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dakomish23]

Arrogant...... You .....

What I have seen on this thread today are some of the craziest reactions I have seen in years! I am shocked that so many "Knicks fans" could be this short-sighted after so long in these forums......

Just to get this out of the way........
1)MLE counts rookie scale and min contracts as well. These contracts rarely make a differance in the free agency market. I am referring to contracts going into your 4th-5th year of service and above.You can say whatever it is you want about THJ but it doesn't change the fact that it is middle of the road for comparable players in the same max bracket and players in their 3rd free agency period.

2) Signing THJ is in no way comparable to signing 31 year old Noah to a 4 year deal at the same price for accomplishments in the past or making a quick fix trade for washed up players you think can bounce back from that injury that is 100%. The Knicks signed a player entering his prime years. This is a guy who they drafted in the first round and developed for 2 years during an all time low year with huge turnover and Phil takeover. THJ actually showed a spark when this team was on life support during that time. This MFer actually saved us from taking Russell or Okafor instead of KP!! IMO they are righting the wrong that Phil made by trading him for Jerian Grant. Stop acting like THJ can't play!!!

Now let me breakdown what this particular genious' master plans are for the Knicks in the next 3 years:

You want to tank right? Guess what buddy so do about 8 or 9 other teams this season. I am all about getting a top pick but do you know how badly you have to perform to be in the bottom 5 right now? The Knicks have enough young talent and players who give a **** this year to get over 25 wins. Being the worst is very hard. I'm sure you want to keep KP and Willy right? We are not in year one of this rebuild. Let the young guys take the reins without a giant triangle hanging over them in a system they can enjoy. They are the key at this point. We have KP, Willy and THJ who have all been named to the first team all rookie team 3 out of the last 4 years as Knicks and Frank who a lot of us feel can be a really good player we will enjoy watching develop. Keep these guys together and build on.

Ok ok ok.....you want to wait until the only 2 big contracts on the team are Willy and KP? Soooo when they are restricted free agents you will be cool with resigning them both to max contracts right? (Well duhhh they will take a discount to stay with the Knicks) Wrong! They will go out and find the team that is willing to give it to them and force the Knicks to match. Lets just estimate that in 2 years the max for a player like KP will be $27-32 million on probably a $102-110 million cap. Thats about $60 mil between both of them, not counting Frank and anyone else still on the roster because I would only assume that over these 2-3 years we have found some other young pieces to put around our guys? So lets say we have $75 mil commited to be extremely generous and about $30-35 mil in cap space. Now tell me.....which one of those guys oh wait you said 2 guys right? So which two guys from your list are coming to split $35 mil? None! Would be the correct answer. Look at the top 15 free agents list at the start of last season. How many of those guys actually left and how old are they? You know who you can sign In 4 years? 29 year old THJ who is now demanding $28 mil a year!!! This is how the market works people!!!!

Oh I really hope you have something to retort me with........

Ohhhhh and this is all that has happened before we find out the Melo situation and whether this signing creates a domino effect of moves we have been hearing about for a week now. We could somehow end up dumping $15-30 million by getting rid of most of the vets for other collectable assets and have just as much space we started with before Timmy and other pieces added.

Short-sighted like I said.......

What an insanely ridiculous attempt at putting down a logical solution

A. You didn't know what an MLE is. Yes it the average of ALL contracts. Does ALL include rookie deals and vet mins? Yes it does. That's what ALL means.

B. Did I say it's as bad as the Noah deal? No I did not. I actually said the opposite multiple times. This is the 2nd time now you are bringing up points that I didn't say.

Nice try.

C. THJ saved us from taking Russell and Okafor? this is the most desperate argument I've heard yet. Yes or no - Gaines said I'd take him #1? Don't remember?

But Gaines shut out the noise, saw the very rare combination of a 7-foot-3 player who can shoot from deep, pass well and had an excellent vertical. After watching him live in Spain that February, he texted Jackson that Porzingis should be considered the No. 1 pick. His argument for Kristaps Porzingis convinced me to make that out-of-the-box choice,’’ Jackson admitted in the email.

http://nypost.com/2017/05/27/meet-phil-jacksons-knicks-draft-guru-a-respected-odd-duck/

D. Since you know less than nothing about the cap, I wouldn't expect you to understand what a cap hold is or how rookie extensions work.

The rules from the CBA FAQ

Restricted free agency gives the player's original team the right to keep the player by matching a contract the player signs with another team. This is called the "right of first refusal."

Restricted free agency exists only on a limited basis:
* Following the fourth year of rookie "scale" contracts for first round draft picks

If the player is coming off the fourth year of his rookie scale contract, then in addition to a qualifying offer, his team can also submit a maximum qualifying offer. A maximum qualifying offer is for five seasons at the maximum salary with 8% annual raises. It can contain no options, ETOs or bonuses of any kind, and must be fully guaranteed. When a team submits a maximum qualifying offer (in essence "stepping up" with a maximum contract offer before the player hits the free agent market), it places a more stringent requirement on other teams' offer sheets

Larry Bird, following the fourth season of his rookie scale contract
If they make At least the average salary1
- 250% of his previous salary (effective 2018-19) or 200% of his previous salary (2017-18 only)2
Larry Bird, following the fourth season of his rookie scale contract
If they make Below the average salary1
- 300% of his previous salary (effective 2018-19) or 250% of his previous salary (2017-18 only)2

2019 Estimated cap 108 mil

KP cap hold in 19-20 - approximately 22 mil (300%)

The cap is predicted to be 108 going into the 19-20 season

Here's our salaries

Noah
$19,295,000
Lee
$12,759,670
Frank
$4,855,800
WHG
1,577,250
--------------
38,487,720

Add in our 2018 pick (assume 8th) estimated 2nd year salary - 4,155,720
Add in our 2019 pick hold (assume 8th) - 3 .5 mil
Add in our roster charges for every spot under 13 - 815K (rookie minimum now) x 5 = 4.9 mil
Add in the guaranteed salary to LFT - 1 mil

Total it up and what do you got? Roughly 74 mil, depending on the deals we gave through that year i.e. Baker and any other picks we made or undrafted guys & how much the rookie scale is raised (starting 18-19, they are going to adjust it the same % as the cap goes up).

So roughly 34 mil in space.

Now subtract 18,150,000, the estimated salary for THJ in 19-20.

17 mil - not even enough to make a max RFA offer.

2020 estimated cap - 120 mil

KP starting salary at the 25% rate (barring being eligible for the new version of the DRose rule) will be about 27.5 mil.

Frank - 6,176,578
WHG cap hold - 2,335,875
2018 8th pick 3rd year salary 4,855,800
2019 8th pick 2nd year salary 4,155,720
-----------
45,023,973

Add in our 2020 pick hold (assume 8th) - 3.5 mil
Add in our roster charges for every spot under 13 - 815K (rookie minimum now) x 6 = 4.9 mil

Total it up and what do you got? Around 54 million, depending on the deals we gave through that year i.e. Baker and any other picks we made or undrafted guys & how much the rookie scale is raised (starting 18-19, they are going to adjust it the same % as the cap goes up).

That's 66 million in cap space.

Now subtract 18,975,000, THJ salary in 20-21, assuming he opts in. Why wouldn't he? He's being massively overpaid.

That's 47 mil in cap space.

This isn't rocket science. It's back of the napkin math. I'm sure I missed some aspect of cap minutiae.

But the simple fact remains - we could of made a huge splash in 2019 or an even bigger one in 2021. Now we are limited because we gave a massive overpay.

And you have the nerve to call me short sighted when you're throwing a parade for this short term thinking

You wrote multiple paragraphs of garbage, happily flaunting your ignorance and trying to pass it off as acumen.

You're not fooling anyone.

Nobody legit is signing here and nobody ever has so it don't even matter


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

When was the last time we had a stud in his prime like KP projects to be, had a ton of young talent around him and had a ton of cap space?

That's an extremely poor excuse to purposely limit yourself in the future. Especially by massively overpaying for a player of the caliber that THJ is.

This organization can't get out of its own way.

[DowNY]

This deal will look much better in 2 years when all those high profile free agents re-sign with their teams for those massive contracts.

[NYKBaller]

People said Klay Thompson was overpaid when he got his deal just up to tim to put up the numbers to justify it

[Juggynaut]

My biggest worry is if Timmy's last season was a fluke and more of a result of Atlanta's system. CARMELO rates his last season worthy of $15.1 million so if he could at least contribute like last season this deal wouldn't be too bad. Overall I'm not optimistic about the Timmy deal since I only got Knick memories of him.

[BasicBall]

I don't like the money, but it aint MY money. I do know the kid has put in the work and goes hard. And IF he told Melo in a game to get a rebound as reported in his first Knicks stint, I'm totally here for it!

[Ray Williams]

I don't like the money, but it aint MY money. I do know the kid has put in the work and goes hard. And IF he told Melo in a game to get a rebound as reported in his first Knicks stint, I'm totally here for it!

https://www.google.com/amp/www.cbssports.com/nba/news/report-carmelo-anthony-told-tim-hardaway-jr-hed-beat-him-up/amp/

[F N 11]

I hope this contract puts a spotlight on just how incompetent Mills is at his job. I hope someone in the front office has the balls to call Mills out on his mistake. Otherwise, just flush the front office down the toilet.

So in other words you hope Timmy doesn't live up to it? Gtfoh

[moocow007]

This deal will look much better in 2 years when all those high profile free agents re-sign with their teams for those massive contracts.

It still would be a bad contract regardless of who else signs where for what and when. Any contract that is excessive when it's signed is excessive. Even if Tim Hardaway Jr turns out to be Tim Hardaway Sr. the contract, based on what he's done, was excessive and all around silly.

[moocow007]

Hawks fan here: it was reported at the start of FAcy that Hawks had an $11-$13 mil/per year cap on THjr., so the max from Hawks would have been $52 million over 4 years. NYK exceeded that by $19 million.
As a player, he improved his game as a Hawk, was still inconsistent at times with questionsble shot selections especially from 3 point range. He excelled in the PnR midrange game and driving the ball. Was more athletic than we expected.
His defense was non-existent when he joined the Hawks that's why he spent the first part of his Hawks tenure as DNP-CD. I can now say, he has some defense but still leaves you wanting more. His rebounding and assists still needs works.
Will he keep working on his defense or will he revert back to only focusing on his offense?
Enjoy the Timmy- shimmy.

This is the only thing I didn't like about the deal. This has been a pattern for the Knicks no matter who's in charge. We're constantly overpaying and outbidding teams that wouldn't have done so. I thought 4/60 was good enough. I think the Hawks would have matched if it was a bit close to 52 though. But oh well, at least he's not a bad player. Not gonna complain.

If the Hawks didn't already have Bazemore at 4/$70 from last year, they would have more than likely matched THjr. They just couldn't justify having $30+ million tied up in 2 average SGs.

Which goes right into what I said about Mills not being able to judge the market. The market (in an offer sheet to RFA scenario) is 2 teams. The team offering the sheet (i.e. the Knicks) and the team that has the option to match (i.e. the Hawks). It didn't take a rocket scientist to realize that it would be highly unlikely for the Hakws, having just signed Bazemore to a similar deal the year before to basically play the same position, that the Hawks would even match a scaled down version of that monstrosity they gave Hardaway Jr. And yep, the report about how much the Hawks were willing to pay was well known (well apparently perhaps except to Mills). Maybe if this was another team who had no player under contract that plays the same position and owed quite a chunk of money, then sure, maybe you go $71 million but not in this scenario. Mills, despite all his years tefloning his way within the Knicks organization, still doesn't know what it takes to be a good GM.

[moocow007]

I don't like the money, but it aint MY money. I do know the kid has put in the work and goes hard. And IF he told Melo in a game to get a rebound as reported in his first Knicks stint, I'm totally here for it!

This is from a guy that grabbed 1.8 rebounds per himself during Knicks stint. Yeah, I'm not sure if I'd buy it if someone like that told me to go grab rebound.

[moocow007]

Let's keep it 100, how many even had hardaway on their radar before we gave him an offer? I didnt see nobody posting "oh man look let's try and sign Hardaway from the hawks".

But now since he a knick and we gave him that lame contract y'all wanna paint him a new picture and overrate him

Gtfo. He's a good player may have even improved but ain't worth 71 mill. Hope he earns his check though

How many contracts are justified in the NBA, especially
In the past 3 years?

Everybody knew the hawks would match any offer from 45-50 million, so the knicks went past it and got the guy they wanted.

Don't let the media tell you it's to much money, every player in the NBA is getting paid big at least the guy the knicks paid actually has a chance to be better and grow with the other young players

That probably was the same argument Isiah Thomas and Scott Layden used when they signed all the guys they signed to ludicrous contracts as well. A fine tactic if you are working for the Knicks and Dolan who have no consciousness when it comes to spending. Problem is that they have a salary cap in the NBA. If this was baseball it would definitely be less of a bad plan (still bad as a lot of teams have found out).

[fatalogic]

I think people are underestimating how bad things are for the Knicks from a contract negotiations stand point. They have no leverage outside of money. Any agent whose client is approached by them must see dollar signs as soon as the Knicks call. I think the Knicks should have walked away but I understand how they came to that number. Note everything below is from the perspective of THJ representation

1. If I'm Tim's agent I don't even pick up the phone unless we start negotiations at $60 million.
- NY does this because they figure the hawks will match anything in the 50-55 range and they don't know what other offers I have.

2. They traded my client away so I need assurances they are not trying to use me in another move. Also the previous POBO basically stated that THJ was a "Non learner", negatively effecting his standing in the league.
-Enter the trade kicker

3. The Knicks are a rebuilding situation but so are the Hawks. However the Hawks have a much better coaching and player development environment as shown by THJ improvement in all aspects of his game. THJ needs flexibility if the Knicks prove to be the same old Knicks there were when he was here the first time.

4. There is obvious roster/coaching/FO instability.
-tack on 5 mill

5. Having to deal with NY media and fans. Tim likes ATL as a city.
-tack on another 5 mil

Due to their own incompetence the Knicks have no leverage over any players they want to sign. This is why we need to build through the draft. Until they create a stable environment and have some positive reasons to come here, agents and players will continue to take them to the cleaners in negotiations.

[HKSVIP]

For those that like THJ but not at what he was signed for, which is understandable, please tell me what you would be willing to give THJ in a 4 year deal?

50 would be a good, and fair contract if he was unrestricted. Restricted cost a little more, and 60 would be the most i would be comfortable with. I do understand, and can accept this 71 million offer though. I just think it is a number that projects what he can become, which is risky. What i dislike the most is actually the trade kicker, player option, and payment-structure, because it increases the risk, limits his value - and shoudn't have been necessary to include.

4 years 56. That's 14 per. That's even a slight reach but I could stomach that.

OK, great! Now, who would you like to add to the team at the remaining 4 million dollars we have if that was the case?