Las Vegas Summer league - July 7-17, 2017

[bwgood77]

Nah. Dude looks average imo. Honestly reminds me of Smush Parker and I'm not trying to hate on the guy. They are both around the same height. Smush could look good at times. Dunked over Ben Wallace, had like 4 20+ point games as a laker starter.

But this dude is too small. He's not going to score in the regular season. Won't say he'll be as bad as Smush. Just not sure from that highlight reel. He looks average, and he looks like he's playing at his ceiling.

OK. Solid analysis.

Colored font for sarcasm?

I didn't think it was necessary. I imagine you really don't either.

[PerkinsFor3]

Who Is DSJ?

Watch on YouTube

Nah. Dude looks average imo. Honestly reminds me of Smush Parker and I'm not trying to hate on the guy. They are both around the same height. Smush could look good at times. Dunked over Ben Wallace, had like 4 20+ point games as a laker starter.

But this dude is too small. He's not going to score in the regular season. Won't say he'll be as bad as Smush. Just not sure from that highlight reel. He looks average, and he looks like he's playing at his ceiling.

This type of post will come back to bite you in the ass, just like the posts I quoted earlier. You'll say you dont remember saying this and ignore it.

Thats perfectly fine, but at one point people will get fed up with the ailly hot takes and one sided posting on anything Lakers related.

Im mostly wondering, how can you say it looks like hes playing at his ceiling? Whats the indication there?

[knicksfan974]

I wanted Knicks to take Fox or DSJr, as it was to me quite obvious that both will do great in the NBA. Frank on the other hand, a very big question mark, and for me unnecessary risk taking by the Knicks.

[LAL]

I think 'untapped athleticism' is being too generous. Just as you argue he has an unteachable feel for the game, DSJ has unteachable athleticism, Lonzo will never come close to the borderline freak athlete that DSJ is/will be as he hits his athletic peak around 23-24. It really comes down to what is more valuable at PG in today's era, a guy with amazing court vision or a guy with amazing athleticism. I'm taking the latter all day, especially when there are legit NBA skills there to capitalize on it like DSJ has shown.

I like Lonzo a lot and think he's going to be a really uniquely impactful player but in today's era a PG's ability to shred teams off the dribble, collapse defenses with pure speed/quickness and score in bunches is really important. It's different if you have a plethora of talented players, but if you're putting a franchise on a guy's shoulders that stuff matters.

Once Lonzo learns how to finish at the rim, he will be impactful. I don't see his shot ever being more than below average. You cannot just be a pass first PG in this league anymore with no other skills.

I think he's going to be Draymond-like as a PG, in that he'll be incredibly different for the position but he'll have as much impact as most 'traditional' stars at that position. Obviously there are stylistic differences (Draymond's defense, Lonzo's elite court vision, complete opposite personalities, etc.) but both are non-dominant scorers who won't carry a team but are amazing at gluing talented teams together.

Who knows though, Lonzo does have scoring potential. I just don't know if he really wants to be that kind of player.

I think Lonzo is such a polarizing prospect because he owns such a unique combination of skills that we haven't really seen before. People have been saying that he could be "Rondo with a 3 ball" or that he has "absolutely no half court game" when those couldn't be further from truth. Those who have seen Lonzo play know that he is nothing like Rondo or other ball dominant point guards out there. In fact, in the half court, he isn't even really a point guard at all. He is much more of a pure shooting guard with elite passing skills. I believe he shot 41% from 3 with range in college and a lot of his half court came is based on catch and shoot 3s/running around screens/and making plays when called upon. He is most certainly not the prototypical probing/ball dominant point guard we are used to seeing.

So people hear about this "point guard," then they watch him play and don't really see a point guard at all (besides the elite transition play). Then they see his shot (and questionable results in first two summer league games) and think "this guy has a broken shot." This in combination with his father makes them think "I hate this guy. He sucks."

In reality, IF Lonzo's stroke can transfer (which besides his atypical gather, is actually pretty pure), he can be a 40% from 3 "shooting guard" with elite passing and transition play with a little half court playmaking thrown in, something I'm not sure we have seen before. Obviously he defense needs work, like virtually every young player, but he has the potential to be an efficient, high impact player in a mold we haven't really seen before, which is exciting.

[bwgood77]

Once Lonzo learns how to finish at the rim, he will be impactful. I don't see his shot ever being more than below average. You cannot just be a pass first PG in this league anymore with no other skills.

I think he's going to be Draymond-like as a PG, in that he'll be incredibly different for the position but he'll have as much impact as most 'traditional' stars at that position. Obviously there are stylistic differences (Draymond's defense, Lonzo's elite court vision, complete opposite personalities, etc.) but both are non-dominant scorers who won't carry a team but are amazing at gluing talented teams together.

Who knows though, Lonzo does have scoring potential. I just don't know if he really wants to be that kind of player.

I think Lonzo is such a polarizing prospect because he owns such a unique combination of skills that we haven't really seen before. People have been saying that he could be "Rondo with a 3 ball" or that he has "absolutely no half court game" when those couldn't be further from truth. Those who have seen Lonzo play know that he is nothing like Rondo or other ball dominant point guards out there. In fact, in the half court, he isn't even really a point guard at all. He is much more of a pure shooting guard with elite passing skills. I believe he shot 41% from 3 with range in college and a lot of his half court came is based on catch and shoot 3s/running around screens/and making plays when called upon. He is most certainly not the prototypical probing/ball dominant point guard we are used to seeing.

So people hear about this "point guard," then they watch him play and don't really see a point guard at all (besides the elite transition play). Then they see his shot (and questionable results in first two summer league games) and think "this guy has a broken shot." This in combination with his father makes them think "I hate this guy. He sucks."

In reality, IF Lonzo's stroke can transfer (which besides his atypical gather, is actually pretty pure), he can be a 40% from 3 "shooting guard" with elite passing and transition play with a little half court playmaking thrown in, something I'm not sure we have seen before. Obviously he defense needs work, like virtually every young player, but he has the potential to be an efficient, high impact player in a mold we haven't really seen before, which is exciting.

Yes, Ball shot better than all the other high point guards from pretty much everywhere on the court and was a far better passer than most, if not all. Until I see that it doesn't translate, I won't judge anything with him.

[pelifan]

Out of the woodwork come all these DSJ guys. For over a year I've been saying this kid is the best player in the draft, and I got the posts to prove it.

DSJ never got the opportunity to show his passing and elusiveness at the 2nd level with NCstate. Glad he's getting to show it here and hopefully it translates to the NBA level. Love this kids game I think he's got more change of pace ability than other athletic point guards as well, which will allow him to run a higher level offense at the next level and be more efficient overall.

[Revived]

I think he's going to be Draymond-like as a PG, in that he'll be incredibly different for the position but he'll have as much impact as most 'traditional' stars at that position. Obviously there are stylistic differences (Draymond's defense, Lonzo's elite court vision, complete opposite personalities, etc.) but both are non-dominant scorers who won't carry a team but are amazing at gluing talented teams together.

Who knows though, Lonzo does have scoring potential. I just don't know if he really wants to be that kind of player.

Which is basically Rondo. I think Lonzo's best comparison is a better scoring version of prime Rajon Rondo. And of course, prime Rajon Rondo was an absolute stud.

[RingsDontLie]

I like Kuzma but settle down bud.

OP said Tatum = Kobelike.
Kuzma > Tatum, then
Kuzma = Jordanesque?

I said his game was fluid like Kobe when Kobe was in summer league. Also said I don't know if he'll be as half as good as Kobe...lmao

[Mylie10]

I think he's going to be Draymond-like as a PG, in that he'll be incredibly different for the position but he'll have as much impact as most 'traditional' stars at that position. Obviously there are stylistic differences (Draymond's defense, Lonzo's elite court vision, complete opposite personalities, etc.) but both are non-dominant scorers who won't carry a team but are amazing at gluing talented teams together.

Who knows though, Lonzo does have scoring potential. I just don't know if he really wants to be that kind of player.

Which is basically Rondo. I think Lonzo's best comparison is a better scoring version of prime Rajon Rondo. And of course, prime Rajon Rondo was an absolute stud.

I've always liked the Jason Kidd comparison for Ball. I remember Jason in high school and at Cal....I'm in the Bay Area. But as soon as I caught wind of Ball prior to last year's college season, and then watching his games for UCLA, it definitely made me they no of Kidd.

While Ball may struggle a bit as a rookie on defense.....I fully expect his defense to not only improve as he matures, but at some point he may be amongst the best in the league as a defender from the point guard spot.

[and1GS]

I love watching Ball pass it, such incredible vision and as many have said he's going to be extremely unique to the position. IIRC he's quite tall for the PG position. Add that to the fact he doesn't need the ball to be effective, yet can run an entire offense and make incisive passes at the drop of a hat and you've got an interesting case study for the new age distributor now that we have so many short, scoring combo guards.

Tatum is so smooth on offense. I wonder what his ceiling is, but damn does he look polished. He had a DIrk fadeaway and a handful of dribbling highlights. He's going to be very good immediately, but IMO Ball will have a tough start to his career. I don't think the NBA is ready for what he brings to the table, especially in a fast paced offense where he's expected to score. It'll look worse before it looks better, but you can't teach the gifts he has. Will come down to how he rounds out his game. He could be Jason Kidd or Steve Nash, but he has to want it and commit to a path by either rounding out his shot or improving on D.

[Ice Trae]

John Collins has been a pleasant surprise. He seems ahead of schedule so far

[beeshma]

would it be a stretch to say that Tatum is a bit like a young Carmelo Anthony. They share similar strengths and weaknesses on the floor. Both can score from anywhere and are so hard to defend, both not the greatest defenders though but it doesn't really matter when they score that much.

And both tend toward being ball hogs. It's quite noticeable that some of Tatum's teammates think he should be passing the ball to them when they're wide open and he brings the ball up the floor...

[beeshma]

Nah. Dude looks average imo. Honestly reminds me of Smush Parker and I'm not trying to hate on the guy. They are both around the same height. Smush could look good at times. Dunked over Ben Wallace, had like 4 20+ point games as a laker starter.

But this dude is too small. He's not going to score in the regular season. Won't say he'll be as bad as Smush. Just not sure from that highlight reel. He looks average, and he looks like he's playing at his ceiling.

OK. Solid analysis.

Colored font for sarcasm?

He seems elite at changing direction, and so he can take his man off the dribble whenever he wants. Great body control, acceleration, and aggressive finisher. The derek rose comparison seems solid.

[DaleyBlind]

Chriss and Bender have been so disappointing, they need to get their **** together

[Tim Kempton]

would it be a stretch to say that Tatum is a bit like a young Carmelo Anthony. They share similar strengths and weaknesses on the floor. Both can score from anywhere and are so hard to defend, both not the greatest defenders though but it doesn't really matter when they score that much.

I like the comparison, but Melo had a much better first step, even when he was younger and less polished. Obviously Tatum has plenty of time to develop that, but it's something he must do. Other people have mentioned that Tatum has trouble getting by the defender and is morally opposed to passing. He makes difficult shots which is great, but his shot selection seems to be a myriad of fadeaway and mid-range jumpers. I am not sure how well that is going to translate in terms of efficiency. Also, his defense leaves a lot to be desired. In the end, I think he will be okay. I'm not trying to trash him. He's a good rebounder and he hits a lot of shots that most players don't start adding to their arsenal until their 3rd season. However, he needs to improve his quickness/first step and not rely on those shots exclusively.

[europeanfan]

Out of all the rookies I've seen so far I like Fultz the best, he's so smooth, just seems to glide with the ball. His passing is good, his shooting is good and he seems to have all the moves. Defense, handle and shot selection need some work but don't see how he can possibly be a bust unless he becomes obese from chick-fil-a. Don't think he has great odds to wins ROY as they probably want to put the ball in Simmons hand as much as possible.

DSJ : can get to the rim and his shot looks at least decent, even if he's a bad defender and an average passer that's enough to put up big numbers. Especially with an all time coach like Carlisle (unless he gets on his bad side like Rondo did).

Ball : concerning stuff is his lack of ability to drive. He has Ginobili's magic passes. But Ginobili could also pump fake and go to the rim with his long strides, then again he came into the league at 25 not 19. Feels like he has the highest bust potential but also that he's the only one with the upside to be better than Fultz.

Tatum : I don't "love" his game but he's pretty much Iso Joe and could have a 20 years career hitting plenty of big shots.

Fox : so much to like yet he kinda remind me of Elfrid Payton so that makes me nervous. Def much faster tho.

For ROY I think it could be a 2-man race between DSJ and Ben Simmons. But doesn't mean 5 years from now Fultz and Ball won"t be much better players.

[Pan Jia Yuan]

Barring injuries, Mavs might have found their next franchise player. Again with the 9th pick just like in 1998 when they drafted Dirk.
Given that basically nothing in the past six years really worked out well for the Mavs I'll put a huge question mark behind this fairy tale story, though.

Tatums footwork looks amazing for a 19 year old.

[RingsDontLie]

Watch on YouTube

Nah. Dude looks average imo. Honestly reminds me of Smush Parker and I'm not trying to hate on the guy. They are both around the same height. Smush could look good at times. Dunked over Ben Wallace, had like 4 20+ point games as a laker starter.

But this dude is too small. He's not going to score in the regular season. Won't say he'll be as bad as Smush. Just not sure from that highlight reel. He looks average, and he looks like he's playing at his ceiling.

This type of post will come back to bite you in the ass, just like the posts I quoted earlier. You'll say you dont remember saying this and ignore it.

Thats perfectly fine, but at one point people will get fed up with the ailly hot takes and one sided posting on anything Lakers related.

Im mostly wondering, how can you say it looks like hes playing at his ceiling? Whats the indication there?

Possibly it could. I still stand by my other statements, Ball could be a generational talent. And I expect Ingram to have PG13 type numbers next season. People think I'm crazy here for thinking these things. Many thought Kobe to MJ comparisons were crazy when Kobe first came in the league. Where are they now?

DSJ looks average to me right now. I saw nothing in that summer league game that made me think he was special. Understanding it is just one game. I'm trying to translate that style against real regular season defenses...it just won't fly. He's too small and not exactly IT quick either. He had good movement when getting to the cup, and he's quick and athletic like most pro athletes. Could he be a good role player in this league? Absolutely. If you are looking for a star, I just don't see that.

I just brought up Smush so people are aware of fool's gold. If I had to guess DSJ looks like fool's gold.

Josh Jackson looks awfully slow out there. Not too impressed with him. I'm liking Fultz, Tatum, Ball, and Kuzma right now. I like Kuzma more than all three just because of the bargain aspect. And I like Ball more than Fultz and Tatum because of his style of play especially in this era where the pace is getting back to that faster 80s pace. I am looking forward to showtime basketball part 2 with Ball.

[PerkinsFor3]

I'm liking Fultz, Tatum, Ball, and Kuzma right now. I like Kuzma more than all three just because he got drafted by the Lakers. And I like Ball more than Fultz and Tatum because he's a Laker as well

Clear.

[PLO]

Nah. Dude looks average imo. Honestly reminds me of Smush Parker and I'm not trying to hate on the guy. They are both around the same height. Smush could look good at times. Dunked over Ben Wallace, had like 4 20+ point games as a laker starter.

But this dude is too small. He's not going to score in the regular season. Won't say he'll be as bad as Smush. Just not sure from that highlight reel. He looks average, and he looks like he's playing at his ceiling.

This type of post will come back to bite you in the ass, just like the posts I quoted earlier. You'll say you dont remember saying this and ignore it.

Thats perfectly fine, but at one point people will get fed up with the ailly hot takes and one sided posting on anything Lakers related.

Im mostly wondering, how can you say it looks like hes playing at his ceiling? Whats the indication there?

Possibly it could. I still stand by my other statements, Ball could be a generational talent. And I expect Ingram to have PG13 type numbers next season. People think I'm crazy here for thinking these things. Many thought Kobe to MJ comparisons were crazy when Kobe first came in the league. Where are they now?

DSJ looks average to me right now. I saw nothing in that summer league game that made me think he was special. Understanding it is just one game. I'm trying to translate that style against real regular season defenses...it just won't fly. He's too small and not exactly IT quick either. He had good movement when getting to the cup, and he's quick and athletic like most pro athletes. Could he be a good role player in this league? Absolutely. If you are looking for a star, I just don't see that.

I just brought up Smush so people are aware of fool's gold. If I had to guess DSJ looks like fool's gold.

Josh Jackson looks awfully slow out there. Not too impressed with him. I'm liking Fultz, Tatum, Ball, and Kuzma right now. I like Kuzma more than all three just because of the bargain aspect. And I like Ball more than Fultz and Tatum because of his style of play especially in this era where the pace is getting back to that faster 80s pace. I am looking forward to showtime basketball part 2 with Ball.

1. How is Ball going to be a "generational talent" lacking the necessary skills to even play the point guard position? You could randomly select someone from the crowd at one of the summer league games and he'd have trouble dribbling around him. He has no mid-range or close-range game because his handle is so basic and we've already seen how easily his shot is blocked, which is what some of us were saying about him months ago pre-draft. Most of his scoring in college was from step-back threes or from off-ball cuts to the rim behind a ball-watching defence. Neither of those will be a steady source of points for him in the NBA.

2. Brandon Ingram had a bad debut season by any metric - yes he improved at the tail end of it but he has a ways to go to even middle of the pack for his position, let alone anywhere near a prime-George, or even a non-prime George for that matter. The only statistic Ingram will approach George this year is likely in turnovers, given George has never really been known to be that big on ball-security.

3. Kobe is an over-rated chucker and shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as Michael Jordan. For the majority of the titles he won he wasn't even the best player on his own team, let alone near someone who is arguably the best player of all time.

4. DSJ will be a lot better player in the NBA than Ball will be, injury aside - you can already see him breaking down a defence with his dribble and good PnR execution. His shot mechanics are also a lot better, and that takes into account the fact DSJ is occasionally sloppy, especially in catch and shoot situations where his shot is really a two-parter. DSJ has an actual short and mid-range game that opens up a universe of possibilities for him offensively; Lonzo will be stuck dumping the ball off in the half-court while DSJ will be attacking wrinkles in the defence with his elite first step, excellent ball control and explosive athleticism. In other words DSJ is an actual NBA point-guard, Ball isn't. Comparing DSJ to Smush Parker is about as absurd as stating Brandon Ingram will have "Paul George type numbers this season".

5. Kuzma looks a good pick up but there are a number of players from other teams picked later in the draft who have shone this summer league. You should dial back on the hyperbole a bit at least until they've played some actual NBA games before you've slotted them into the Hall of Fame. You're doing nothing to prick the perception Lakers fans are the most deluded in the NBA.