Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion 3: #TheTimeline

[jcsunsfan]

I'm not saying playing himself out of minutes in the first half of the season was unfair. I was saying us basically telling him to sit and not be allowed to compete for minutes was unfair. He definitely didn't look good but there were certainly games where Ulis didn't look good either and Knight could've played. He took it like a champ when asked to sit. It's unfair to ask him to do it again or not be allowed to compete for minutes.

Sitting him does him no favors and does us no favors either by having a depreciating asset not produce at all. At least if we take on a bad contract who actually plays, he could at least contribute in some way.

When did that happen? The coach kept giving him chances and from what we heard, Knight refused to do what Watson demanded of him. And it's not like Ulis played a bunch of minutes and Knight was forced to sit, Brandon actually played a few more minutes last season than Tyler did. Knight has been given more chances than his performance has warranted. He sat stoically on the sidelines, showing neither positive nor negative emotion and rarely provided anything close to the support you'd expect from someone who was really being a good teammate.

I think you're making excuses for a player that simply doesn't deserve that kind of consideration. He's shown a few flashes but for the most part he's been a huge disappointment from the moment he got here. The best I can say about him is that he didn't appear to try and cause havoc in the locker room but frankly, we have a right to expect a heck of a lot more than that from him.

There are no excuses being made for Knight. He hasn't played as well as we expect him to, that's fact. What's also a fact is, if a guy doesn't fit your roster anymore, and clearly he doesn't, you don't just bench him until his contract runs out. We asked him to come off the bench after siting 10 straight games which he refused to and we declared his season over. Maybe it was a mutual agreement, I don't know. What we know is that we no longer have a spot for him on the roster so you move him and move on.

The main issue here is, to me this is another case of McD sitting a contract too long hoping its value recovers or waiting for a deal he can't refuse to be offered to him. What I want to avoid is another Kieff situation or Dragic situation where McD sat on his hands waiting for the "perfect" deal while the affected players gets more and more disinterested, disgruntled and we get to a point where we have the stretch the guy's deal to move on.

This view of the past has no basis in reality. McD did no such thing as sit on his hands waiting for the perfect deal with Goran or with Kieff. He traded Goran right away once he said he was not going to return, otherwise he would have kept him. He got good value for Goran too. He had planned on keeping Kieff after the Marcus trade and initially hoped Keiff would back off of his trade request. He eventually traded him one he got a reasonable offer. Whose deal got stretched?


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[carey]

What a trip for Big Sauce. Gets signed by PHX as a hometown kid/ bench hype man, and ends up signing a multi-year deal to stay for good money. Hard work pays off.

I'm so happy for him. If you know the story it's even more impressive for all involved. Sauce actually bombed his first workout with the Suns. Watson sat him down and said, "You're better than this. We're going on a road trip for 10 days. When we come back you'll have another work out with us. Use this time to get in shape and try again." He did what he was told to do and made the squad. 2 years later he has himself a guaranteed deal. It's quite impressive.

My thoughts are that Len shouldn't make more than Williams considering he outplayed Len at nearly every turn. The only thing Len offers that Williams doesn't is rim protection. But then again Sauce can catch a basketball. So...

[BobbieL]

What a trip for Big Sauce. Gets signed by PHX as a hometown kid/ bench hype man, and ends up signing a multi-year deal to stay for good money. Hard work pays off.

I'm so happy for him. If you know the story it's even more impressive for all involved. Sauce actually bombed his first workout with the Suns. Watson sat him down and said, "You're better than this. We're going on a road trip for 10 days. When we come back you'll have another work out with us. Use this time to get in shape and try again." He did what he was told to do and made the squad. 2 years later he has himself a guaranteed deal. It's quite impressive.

My thoughts are that Len shouldn't make more than Williams considering he outplayed Len at nearly every turn. The only thing Len offers that Williams doesn't is rim protection. But then again Sauce can catch a basketball. So...

Len's lack of basketball development has to be a concern. If he wants to play on a one year deal, 5m or something - maybe I sign him to that.

And sometimes if you have smart guys, who play hard, understand their role, good teammates, and hey, CATCH the BALL - that's a good thing. Williams is a very good bench player for the Suns. He is a good person to have besides Chriss, Booker, Bender, Josh - the stars to be. You need role players and he fits that role well

[Frank Lee]

We almost have to sign Len.... else another C somewhere. Would be a nice thought of Bender or Chris could man up there, but Len at a cheapity cheap deal is a reasonable move. Having Len also frees up a trade for Chandler down the road if need/opportunity arises.

Boy.... there are a lot of FAs looking for a deal. The expanded roster made room in the development league, but some of these vets could be looking for their passports.

[BobbieL]

We almost have to sign Len.... else another C somewhere. Would be a nice thought of Bender or Chris could man up there, but Len at a cheapity cheap deal is a reasonable move. Having Len also frees up a trade for Chandler down the road if need/opportunity arises.

Boy.... there are a lot of FAs looking for a deal. The expanded roster made room in the development league, but some of these vets could be looking for their passports.

Based on where the team is cap wise - and based on what Alan Williams received - Len on a one year deal, maybe 1+ 1 -for like 12m seems fair - or 6m per year

with that Suns would still have about 12m of cap space to take on contracts if need be

EDIT: Per Spotrac, Suns have 7m of cap space with a Len hold of 12m - so potentially 19m. Suns renounced Ronnie Price and with Williams signing, removes the Cap hold and adds in the 5.2m contract

Based on a Len contract of 6-9m, would leave the Suns 10-13m of Cap space.

[Hesh]

the big sauce signing needs an appreciation thread of it's own!! this man loves the squad

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

Right now, I like the idea of buying out Tyson, signing Len to a reasonable 4 year deal with team options, letting Alan play the bulk of the minutes at center, starting TJ and JJ, and having all of Alex, Dragan and Quese battle for backup big minutes.

I have no idea what to do about BK. Would he benefit from JJ's passing at the 3? Could we move Bled and give Knight another chance? Would it matter? Would Bled return us anything worthwhile in trade? I ask all these questions knowing that McD will do what he always does and patiently carry this cluster forward into the season.

It's important not to overreact to summer league. I say it ever year but fall for it every time. Players can look great in SL and flame out in the regular season, and vice versa. But man, I'm really starting to worry about our bigs. Three players taken in the top 8, and none of them look especially promising ATM.

I was hoping we would start winning games this season or next. This season looks like a foregone conclusion already. Feeling down about our situation this morning.

[BobbieL]

Right now, I like the idea of buying out Tyson, signing Len to a reasonable 4 year deal with team options, letting Alan play the bulk of the minutes at center, starting TJ and JJ, and having all of Alex, Dragan and Quese battle for backup big minutes.

I have no idea what to do about BK. Would he benefit from JJ's passing at the 3? Could we move Bled and give Knight another chance? Would it matter? Would Bled return us anything worthwhile in trade? I ask all these questions knowing that McD will do what he always does and patiently carry this cluster forward into the season.

It's important not to overreact to summer league. I say it ever year but fall for it every time. Players can look great in SL and flame out in the regular season, and vice versa. But man, I'm really starting to worry about our bigs. Three players taken in the top 8, and none of them look especially promising ATM.

I was hoping we would start winning games this season or next. This season looks like a foregone conclusion already. Feeling down about our situation this morning.

I agree about BK - either you need to move him to take on a bad deal; or move Bledsoe, make him the 1 and say "this is your team"

I know the team doesn't have to do something. As has been said, can just pay him, buy him out later, stretch him - all those things. But to me, see if there is a bad contract to trade for. I just don't like the trading partners in Portland unless they have two years left and many other deals. Like I am sure the Knicks would allow the Suns to take Noah but he makes more than Knight - same year

[LukasBMW]

I hate Len. But given the terrible play of Bender and Chriss so far in summer league, I think we have to keep him.

I mean...Len's pretty bad, but he'd surely outperform what Chriss and Bender have been doing. Right? Right????

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

I hate Len. But given the terrible play of Bender and Chriss so far in summer league, I think we have to keep him.

I mean...Len's pretty bad, but he'd surely outperform what Chriss and Bender have been doing. Right? Right????

I don't think Bender played poorly in game 2. The arc on Dragan's shot is a problem, but he plays good defense and doesn't hurt us. He's just not going to carry us offensively and still needs to improve on that end in order to be effective. JJ can only do so much at this point in his development. DJJ's a good role player. But that leaves James and Chriss as our primary offense.

It's clear that we need more ball movement. I don't think JJ's ready, but if anyone's going to rescue us from Chriss, it's going to be JJ. Bender I'm happy to be patient with. But something's not right with Marquese atm.

[BobbieL]

I hate Len. But given the terrible play of Bender and Chriss so far in summer league, I think we have to keep him.

I mean...Len's pretty bad, but he'd surely outperform what Chriss and Bender have been doing. Right? Right????

First, is two games of Summer League play really an indication of anything. Yes, some players are outperforming other players but its way to early to give up on Chriss and Bender and think Alex Len is the answer

If you are going to have young guys play - they have learn, and screw up. That doesn't mean, I am giving them minutes just because but I think its early to say Len is the answer

[Zelaznyrules]

I hate Len. But given the terrible play of Bender and Chriss so far in summer league, I think we have to keep him.

I mean...Len's pretty bad, but he'd surely outperform what Chriss and Bender have been doing. Right? Right????

First, is two games of Summer League play really an indication of anything. Yes, some players are outperforming other players but its way to early to give up on Chriss and Bender and think Alex Len is the answer

If you are going to have young guys play - they have learn, and screw up. That doesn't mean, I am giving them minutes just because but I think its early to say Len is the answer

No, it's not an indication in any way if you're talking about stats or wins and losses. But no matter what people say about how unimportant it is, it's still basketball. If a player is always off the ball and does nothing, that could be scheme or poor guard play. But if a player goes 1 on 1 against marginal NBA talent and he keeps getting the ball stripped or blocked, or if he can't get around a no namer, that can tell you a lot. And sometimes that "lot" is just, he's really out of shape, but again you can tell that too by watching him play and watching him move.

[kennydorglas]

I guess Chriss thought he wouldnt be needed in the SL and just continued his offseason routine.
He really looks like he's in the middle on a bulk season.

[WeekapaugGroove]

Saw an article from a Boston writer saying they should do a sign and trade of Len for crowder... sign me up for that one.

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[BobbieL]

Saw an article from a Boston writer saying they should do a sign and trade of Len for crowder... sign me up for that one.

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Was this before or after the Aron Baynes signing

I think Danny has his Center

[BobbieL]

I hate Len. But given the terrible play of Bender and Chriss so far in summer league, I think we have to keep him.

I mean...Len's pretty bad, but he'd surely outperform what Chriss and Bender have been doing. Right? Right????

First, is two games of Summer League play really an indication of anything. Yes, some players are outperforming other players but its way to early to give up on Chriss and Bender and think Alex Len is the answer

If you are going to have young guys play - they have learn, and screw up. That doesn't mean, I am giving them minutes just because but I think its early to say Len is the answer

No, it's not an indication in any way if you're talking about stats or wins and losses. But no matter what people say about how unimportant it is, it's still basketball. If a player is always off the ball and does nothing, that could be scheme or poor guard play. But if a player goes 1 on 1 against marginal NBA talent and he keeps getting the ball stripped or blocked, or if he can't get around a no namer, that can tell you a lot. And sometimes that "lot" is just, he's really out of shape, but again you can tell that too by watching him play and watching him move.

your points are valid

but we got about two years to see if Bender and Chriss are busts or not

[jredsaz]

I hate Len. But given the terrible play of Bender and Chriss so far in summer league, I think we have to keep him.

I mean...Len's pretty bad, but he'd surely outperform what Chriss and Bender have been doing. Right? Right????

I don't think Bender played poorly in game 2. The arc on Dragan's shot is a problem, but he plays good defense and doesn't hurt us. He's just not going to carry us offensively and still needs to improve on that end in order to be effective. JJ can only do so much at this point in his development. DJJ's a good role player. But that leaves James and Chriss as our primary offense.

It's clear that we need more ball movement. I don't think JJ's ready, but if anyone's going to rescue us from Chriss, it's going to be JJ. Bender I'm happy to be patient with. But something's not right with Marquese atm.

His defense didn't look great. For a guy who is supposed to guard possibly five positions on the court he got beat consistantly by DSJ. And beat badly.

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[bwgood77]

Saw an article from a Boston writer saying they should do a sign and trade of Len for crowder... sign me up for that one.

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I saw that too. Then at the end of that article they had a trade proposal including us sending out Bledsoe and ending up with like Okafor, Crowder, Splitter and someone else...not someone to legit replace Bledsoe though.

I was looking at Alex Len mentions on twitter and I saw fans of the Wolves, Nets, Celtics and at least two other team say they should go after Len.

[Preacherpj]

I hate Len. But given the terrible play of Bender and Chriss so far in summer league, I think we have to keep him.

I mean...Len's pretty bad, but he'd surely outperform what Chriss and Bender have been doing. Right? Right????

First, is two games of Summer League play really an indication of anything. Yes, some players are outperforming other players but its way to early to give up on Chriss and Bender and think Alex Len is the answer

If you are going to have young guys play - they have learn, and screw up. That doesn't mean, I am giving them minutes just because but I think its early to say Len is the answer

Not calling him a bust or anything like that; but the issues he's had aren't ones that great players usually struggle with. Like I said earlier, if he was just bricking shots it would be one thing, but he's barely hustling, there are possessions after he turns the ball over that he hardly makes it back across HC before the other team scores.

His body language is bad, he's turning it over relentlessly, fouling everybody, jacking up 3s......... its a very bad look against very marginal competition. I think we all expected him in his second SL to take a step forward (ANYONE REMEMBER HOW BOOKER LOOKED IN HIS SECOND SL???) that was a dude who clearly was primed for takeoff. Chriss - in a small sample size - looks frankly awful; and his lack of energy/focus is inexcusable for a guy Phoenix is hoping to build around.

I think a person can easily blow SL out of proportion and how he's played through the first two games could just be an aberration, maybe he's battling the plague and hasn't been sleeping... but there's no doubt in my mind if he had come out and dominated, posterized people, grabbed 15 RPG -- people would be salivating, I don't see any issue with talking about how poor he's looked. We all want him to be a stud.

[Preacherpj]

I hate Len. But given the terrible play of Bender and Chriss so far in summer league, I think we have to keep him.

I mean...Len's pretty bad, but he'd surely outperform what Chriss and Bender have been doing. Right? Right????

First, is two games of Summer League play really an indication of anything. Yes, some players are outperforming other players but its way to early to give up on Chriss and Bender and think Alex Len is the answer

If you are going to have young guys play - they have learn, and screw up. That doesn't mean, I am giving them minutes just because but I think its early to say Len is the answer

Not calling him a bust or anything like that; but the issues he's had aren't ones that great players usually struggle with. Like I said earlier, if he was just bricking shots it would be one thing, but he's barely hustling, there are possessions after he turns the ball over that he hardly makes it back across HC before the other team scores.

His body language is bad, he's turning it over relentlessly, fouling everybody, jacking up 3s......... its a very bad look against very marginal competition. I think we all expected him in his second SL to take a step forward (ANYONE REMEMBER HOW BOOKER LOOKED IN HIS SECOND SL???) that was a dude who clearly was primed for takeoff. Chriss - in a small sample size - looks frankly awful; and his lack of energy/focus is inexcusable for a guy Phoenix is hoping to build around.

I think a person can easily blow SL out of proportion and how he's played through the first two games could just be an aberration, maybe he's battling the plague and hasn't been sleeping... but there's no doubt in my mind if he had come out and dominated, posterized people, grabbed 15 RPG -- people would be salivating, I don't see any issue with talking about how poor he's looked. We all want him to be a stud.